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[Homebrew] Mechs, Walkers, Ect.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Originally posted by Leliel View Post
    Just the Artifact and Arcadian Weapons mechanics, actually.

    I dunno. A part of me wonders if such rules would be sufficient. I suppose you can improvise something later though.





    Also, you just reminded me something I wanted to make:
    WereMech(•••••; Special)
    Prerequisite: Wolf-Blooded
    Effects: Many Wolf-Blooded dream of the day that they might one day join the pack in Siskur-Dah, not as a mere helper, but part of the center stage. Above all else, they fantasize about the power the Killing Form, doing more than simply harrying it so that others might earn the glory. With the advent of bipedal walkers, clever Wolfblooded found an alternative outlet. Through a combination of spirit magic and neurotransmitters, they can see the world through a werewolf’s perspective.

    The --- is a converted Civilian grade Mech, usually previous a power loader or construction unit. The changes often involve putting metal or wooden masks or carving heads to resemble a wolf’s. Other typical accessories include animal pelts sown together like a cape, upscaled weapons for use in combat, and scripture in the First Tongue.

    But one thing that is common in all --- is the binding of a powerful Wolf spirit to the body, granting the machine a small measure of the power that belonging to a true Uratha.

    The --- is a Civilian Mech with the following changes to the base form:
    +2 Strength, +2 Durability, +2 Structure, +2 Handling, -5 Energy

    Sense Link:While riding in this gigantic Fetish, a Wolf-Blood perceives the world through the senses of the ---. This doesn’t quite work like Synchronization, but it’s close. An operator may use Brawl, Weaponry, and Athletics, where appropriate instead of relying on Drive.
    Gauru Effigy: The --- receives the Primal Fear, Perception, and Lunacy special rules as described for Gauru form. Being made to emulate Gauru form, the --- is very proficent at it.
    Bloodlust: The Thrill of the Hunt fuels the very life force of machine, allowing it to function even when it shouldn’t. The --- recovers Structure at a rate of 1 per turn, but only when fighting. This healing does not remove Tilts or Conditions.

    Special: The --- may take Mech upgrade merits as normal.

    Probably too OP
    Last edited by Almarck; 02-21-2016, 05:16 PM.

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  • Leliel
    replied
    Just the Artifact and Arcadian Weapons mechanics, actually.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Originally posted by Leliel View Post
    Nice.

    Also, I'm thinking of adding my own contributions to the project after the Mage 2E book and the Huntsmen's weapons are spoiled.

    Namely, an Artifact mech sent by the Exarchs to serve as the steed of a tetrarch's most trusted bodyguard, and a Huntsman's harness that unfolds into the perfect power armor for subduing and stalking their quarry. The Peleps and the Herne's Mantle, respectively.

    Sweet. You're welcome to do so at any time. Though I'm wondering if it's really neccesary to wait for them to be released. Is there anything specific you need from them?

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  • Leliel
    replied
    Nice.

    Also, I'm thinking of adding my own contributions to the project after the Mage 2E book and the Huntsmen's weapons are spoiled.

    Namely, an Artifact mech sent by the Exarchs to serve as the steed of a tetrarch's most trusted bodyguard, and a Huntsman's harness that unfolds into the perfect power armor for subduing and stalking their quarry. The Peleps and the Herne's Mantle, respectively.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Alright ladies and gentlemen, Mere moments after just getting the new Cod Book, I have finally updated Mechs to account Hurt Locker Appendix Preview and the new Corebook rules to the best of my ability.

    I have changed over all Mechs to have a single speed and in the process massively increased most speeds to account for this. I have made it so the Light Mech no longer gets the insane jump boosters as previously, but the thing runs almost as fast as a car now. and the Heavy Mech is really fast for its size.

    The Boost upgrade now instantly accelerates a mech to its top speed.

    Also, now all guns reflect the Hurt Locker specific gun ranges and ammo capacities. Most guns are really high range but then again, said weapons are obscenely powerful due to their size.

    Long story short, mechs are faster than you'd think and you should reall
    Last edited by Almarck; 02-20-2016, 05:32 PM.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    So, with the recent reveal of "dramatic reloads" existing to basically remove reloading except for in specific cirvumatances, I wonder how I should adjust them when converting said rules.... but for combat robots.


    Just as well, I'm wondering about tweaking some things in this project.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
    If these mechs are intended to be Ellen Ripley in Aliens, except with enormous mobility, that is beyond my range of experience. But I like how you have taken the maxed out versions and pitted them against each other. Seems like you have discovered a lot of how they work out mechanically vs the ideal you had in mind already. Keep doing that and you'll have this sorted to satisfaction soon enough.
    It's worth mentioning that that's the reason we have a Civilian Mech in the first place. If you pay very close attention, it basically simulates the very basic Mech she used in the finale of Aliens. Right down to the fact it leaves the user very exposed and isn't a full body seal.

    Anyways, I've made a minor sorting on just now. All Mechs now have enough Base weapon damage and ap to at the very minimum damage other mechs of the same type barring upgrades

    As a consequence of this.... mech melee is brutally effective on anything smaller than it. Civilian Mechs have 3 damage, light is the same but adds AP 2. And heavies deal 5 with AP 3...

    As you can see, they'll rip appart human level opponents and smaller mechs easily.

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  • DarthMRN
    replied
    If these mechs are intended to be Ellen Ripley in Aliens, except with enormous mobility, that is beyond my range of experience. But I like how you have taken the maxed out versions and pitted them against each other. Seems like you have discovered a lot of how they work out mechanically vs the ideal you had in mind already. Keep doing that and you'll have this sorted to satisfaction soon enough.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Alright, so, going all in on Defense isn't as powerful as going all in on offense as defensive tanking isn't really... worth it as you can't get good enough melee to deal damage to other mechs. That actually kinda makes a bit of sense and I think I'm kinda okay with that.

    Punchman should honestly be able to rip appart lighter Mechs with ease. Granted, a Light Mech should have a mobility advantage to allow him to say snipe off Punchman, it's kinda how I feel that that sort of scenario should play out. So, that part is satisfactory.

    On the otherhand, mechs should be atleast be able to do glancing damage to each other or rip appart each other's limbs. I mean, it should be possible for a Tanky mech to atleast slowly grind away at a more offensively stronger mech.

    With that in mind, perhaps means to go after the pilot are neccesary? Some sort of Grappling fight? Or maybe the ability to make called Shots to limbs to mission kill a Mech? On the otherhand, Tank doesn't have nearly enough melee offense to counter Punchy using those tools against him. On the other hand, I kinda feel that is working as intended as Tank has invested in defense, but no offense to counter an offense oriented bot where as Punchy has offense. Yet Punchy is too tough for Tank to fight, the disparity in ability is just that great. That part vexes me.

    Well, my considerations right now are to buff melee some more, so that atleast Tank can hurt Punchy, even though it also buffs Punchy. I slightly nerfed the Melee modification so atleast Punchy and Tanky need the same ammount of successes to hurt each other. If I buffed "standard" Melee ability for Heavies and thus by proxy superheavies, that means Punchy and Tanky need the same ammount of damage to each other even then.





    As for the Size M, I added text basically stating they count as having Strength 10+ for Heavy Recoil's purposes. + because autofire increases it. Atleast for now, might drop it lower for later.
    Last edited by Almarck; 11-15-2015, 08:50 PM.

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  • amechra
    replied
    Oh, and a question - how does Heavy Recoil work with stuff that are Strength M?

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  • amechra
    replied
    I take Mech ••••• to get a Super-Heavy Mech. Then I put three dots each in Armor Enhancement, Enhanced Safety Features, Handling Enhancement, and Hardened Armor.

    My mech has literally every point of general defensive enhancement they can get their hands on.
    Class Strength Durability Size Structure Acceleration Safe Speed Max Speed Handling Power
    Tank McGee 13 14 18 32 3 7 20 +0 2
    It also ignores 3 points of AP, and blocks three points of damage that would be dealt to the pilot.

    Let's look at what would happen if I bought a different Super-Heavy Mech, and put three dots in Strength Enhancement, four dots in Melee Modification, two in Handling Enhancement, and three in Neural Interface.
    Class Strength Durability Size Structure Acceleration Safe Speed Max Speed Handling Power
    Punchman 24000 16 11 18 29 3 7 20 -1 2
    It also has AP 7 on +9L fists, and the pilot uses the higher of their Wits and Dexterity for Defense.

    Punchman 24000 would have to get at least 2 successes to deal even one damage to Tanks McGee; Tanks McGee, on the other hand, can't even scratch Punchman 24000 without getting at least 4 successes on their roll. Tank McGee can't even hurt another Tank McGee without getting ten successes. Punchman 24000 could hurt another Punchman 24000 normally, their massive fists dealing at 6L+ each time they land.

    For comparison, Punchman 24000's fists have a higher damage rating than any of the mech weapons you can use, and have a higher AP rating than any of the weapons other than the lasers and the Autocannons (at least, the ones that aren't the High-Speed Autocannon - that thing doesn't have any AP!)

    So I load a Heavy Autocannon on Punchman 24000. Now I can just rip through Tank McGee with little to no problem. And if he brings his friend Speedy McMech to the party, who's in a Light Mech with all kinds of Boost... I just punch it. Because I'll be dealing 10L+ a punch, and my attack will take the same penalty either way.

    Make of this what you will.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
    It makes sense to me to use the 1e Main Battle Tank as a basis. But without knowing what you intend for mechs, I'm not sure what changes to recommend. If they are supposed to be at once capable of taking down such a tank in a few hits, but be no more durable themselves, you seem to be spot on, however dangerous and undesirable that will make mech battles. But if they are supposed to be superior in some fashion, while treating tanks as fodder, something extra is needed. Maybe boosing Defense, or simply Durability.

    Melee seems to be less of a problem than ranged, so I'm not too sure here. A good guideline is to pit two equal versions of the weakest minimum mech against each other, and then two maxed out versions as well, and see how these play out. Two unmerited civ mechs with average pilots seems reasonable, where the lack of AP will give Durability 3 plenty of protection even against high Strength scores, leading to the sort of endurance brawls you mentioned. But I'm more worried about the maxed out heavy mechs piloted by aces, cause I got the impression there are more offensive merits than defensive ones, which means easy to hit melee attacks with large AP and Damage bonuses, counteracted by minimal Defense and only moderate AP armour. I get the feeling you will be disappointed by how well these monsters hold up against attacks from their peers.

    The most specific I can be is to look at what GMC did with Defense: Two equal opponents nullify each others' attacks on average dice rolls, with only Willpower and luck being able to break the tie. If you can acheve a stat-wise equilibrium where the same goes for mech melee, without taking away their ability to treat tanks as fodder on the side, you will be where I think you want to be.

    They aren't MBT level, no. If they were, they'd be size 20 and have Durabilities above 10. The specific intention of Mechs was a transition unit between powered armor and armored cars capable of engaging foes ranging from infantry all the way up to vehicle warfare. Their primary advantage over other vehicles is supposed to be their mobility, their ability to engage at melee, and unlike infantry can carry weapons normally too large for humans on their own. It's like, trying to combine the advantages of infantry and applying them to a vehicle. I admittedly may have over nerfed the defense rating with such really high Handling penalties.

    Sadly, it's not exactly easy to balance ranged combat. But to be fair, this is the situation you kind of face when you mount antitank weaponry to light to medium vehicles, which Mechs fit into. It's worth noting though that some of the really powerful weapons are considered "Strength M", which means the Mech has to be a Superheavy to use them without penalty. Heavies get a -3 Penalty and Lights and Civies get a -8 so that'll cut down on them being used improperly.

    I did buff super heavies just now upping their health and durability, as well as reduce Handling penalties on all levels. This should mean that Defense factors in more.
    Also, there's an option to Boost your mechs to apply Defense against Firearms. Really important upgrade that I think reduces the effectiveness at ranged combat, especially against foes using oversized weapons.

    As of now, after some adjustments to the stats, a ranged fight between Superheavies is now a bit more of a slugfest. Weapons barring the Autocannons and Lasers now don't do so much damage relative to Superheavies which have Durability 11. Most other weapons are going to need either more successess to damage them or do somewhere around 10% of the Mech's total health, which I think is fitting as Superheavies are meant to be tanky. Dedicated antitank weapons on a successful hit will do somewhere around a third of a Superheavy's health. This is not even factoring upgrades, which will make it more offense or defense oriented ( a subsystem you might have missed out on on the first pass). Notable upgrades include penalizing firearms attacks, reducing the effectiveness of armor piercing, mobility options like flight. And so on.

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  • DarthMRN
    replied
    It makes sense to me to use the 1e Main Battle Tank as a basis. But without knowing what you intend for mechs, I'm not sure what changes to recommend. If they are supposed to be at once capable of taking down such a tank in a few hits, but be no more durable themselves, you seem to be spot on, however dangerous and undesirable that will make mech battles. But if they are supposed to be superior in some fashion, while treating tanks as fodder, something extra is needed. Maybe boosing Defense, or simply Durability.

    Melee seems to be less of a problem than ranged, so I'm not too sure here. A good guideline is to pit two equal versions of the weakest minimum mech against each other, and then two maxed out versions as well, and see how these play out. Two unmerited civ mechs with average pilots seems reasonable, where the lack of AP will give Durability 3 plenty of protection even against high Strength scores, leading to the sort of endurance brawls you mentioned. But I'm more worried about the maxed out heavy mechs piloted by aces, cause I got the impression there are more offensive merits than defensive ones, which means easy to hit melee attacks with large AP and Damage bonuses, counteracted by minimal Defense and only moderate AP armour. I get the feeling you will be disappointed by how well these monsters hold up against attacks from their peers.

    The most specific I can be is to look at what GMC did with Defense: Two equal opponents nullify each others' attacks on average dice rolls, with only Willpower and luck being able to break the tie. If you can acheve a stat-wise equilibrium where the same goes for mech melee, without taking away their ability to treat tanks as fodder on the side, you will be where I think you want to be.

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  • Almarck
    replied
    Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
    With two out of three mech types having pretty hefty Handling penalties, that looks like in most cases it will be a quite low Defense score compared to being on foot (since it appears the Handling booster merit doesn't add to it). Versus a pretty high attack pool due to Strength. Now, if as you say, this is intentional, cause they are meant to be tanking those inevitable hits, that would be fair enough. But with melee AP on top, that really eyeballs as a very offensively biased system. One that will end fights after a handful of hits even without good rolls. Not what I would call in line with GMC.

    Which bodes ill for the ranged system, with its insanely high damage ratings and AP values. Remember that AP effectively neutralizes Durability, in which case you are back to normal human combat + whatever increase you have made to the GMC weapon ratings, in this case a lot. A doubling of the "Health" track won't do much to hold that back. One of those Damage 5 mid-range guns of yours will remove Durability from the equation easily, after which even a 23 Structure Heavy Mech won't hold out for more than a few turns. And at that scale, cover is harder to come by to compensate for no Defense application. To say nothing of more powerful guns and lighter mechs.

    Pure experienced eyeballing here, but this system currently seems as deadly as GMC, but because of mechs inevitably getting scrapped fast due to offensive bias, rather than lucky dice rolls. Have you done any playtesting? Seems like the easiest way to get a feel for where adjustments are needed to maintain the fun factor of using tech like this.
    Many of the really big guns are by design hilariously over the top to be effective against vehicles as some of them supposed to be antitank. And walkers which are considerably less damage resistant than tanks are gonna get croaked easily. The AP and damage values are gonna change if I get a good sampling of Armored vehicles to compare to post GMC, but for now, I have to design those guns to work against Heavy tanks from 1e. I suppose the primary thing to do to discourage them from being used against foot troops via some sort of "lock on" requirements as well as tone down the ridiculous AP on some of them to be more in line with fighting other mechs. This a good idea?

    As for melee, what do you recommend? You're the first one to specifically bring this issue to me and while I have done some testing, I haven't yet actually had the opportunity to. use them in actual play. Should I buff the Durabilities, cut down the APs just slightly? I could also drop Handling penalties and instead replace them with specific defense penalties. You're the one with the experiance, I will listen.

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  • DarthMRN
    replied
    With two out of three mech types having pretty hefty Handling penalties, that looks like in most cases it will be a quite low Defense score compared to being on foot (since it appears the Handling booster merit doesn't add to it). Versus a pretty high attack pool due to Strength. Now, if as you say, this is intentional, cause they are meant to be tanking those inevitable hits, that would be fair enough. But with melee AP on top, that really eyeballs as a very offensively biased system. One that will end fights after a handful of hits even without good rolls. Not what I would call in line with GMC.

    Which bodes ill for the ranged system, with its insanely high damage ratings and AP values. Remember that AP effectively neutralizes Durability, in which case you are back to normal human combat + whatever increase you have made to the GMC weapon ratings, in this case a lot. A doubling of the "Health" track won't do much to hold that back. One of those Damage 5 mid-range guns of yours will remove Durability from the equation easily, after which even a 23 Structure Heavy Mech won't hold out for more than a few turns. And at that scale, cover is harder to come by to compensate for no Defense application. To say nothing of more powerful guns and lighter mechs.

    Pure experienced eyeballing here, but this system currently seems as deadly as GMC, but because of mechs inevitably getting scrapped fast due to offensive bias, rather than lucky dice rolls. Have you done any playtesting? Seems like the easiest way to get a feel for where adjustments are needed to maintain the fun factor of using tech like this.

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