[CofD] Defense vs. Firearms

[Enokh]

I recently ran into an issue concerning defense vs. firearms. Prior to Chronicles of Darkness, if you were within a few meters of someone you got your defense if they shot you; if they weren't that close, then you no longer got your defense.

However, in Chronicles of Darkness, there are two lines that seem somewhat oppositional. The first, under Defense, directly states you do not get your defense against firearms (this is the section where the "unless they're too close" exception was stated in prior editions/"editions"). The second, under Firearms in Close Combat, talks about how if you're in close combat and trying to shoot your gun, your opponent gets to add the gun's size+1 to their defense, implying that they have a defense to add it to. Or, is it merely trying to state that your Defense is normally zero, but you get to add the size+1 to the 0 Defense? There may, obviously, be other passages I have missed but those are the only two relevant ones I could find.

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can give!

[Leetsepeak]

You don't get your Defense against Firearms by default. If you're in close quarters with a Firearm that's Size is greater than 1, you get a Defense bonus equal to Size + 1 of the Firearm, which increases your Defense of 0 to, say, 3.

[Charlaquin]

You don't get your Defense against Firearms by default. If you're in close quarters with a Firearm that's Size is greater than 1, you get a Defense bonus equal to Size + 1 of the Firearm, which increases your Defense of 0 to, say, 3.

Which makes a lot of sense as a change from 1e, where you applied full defense against Firearms at close range, but it was rare to have Defense much more than 3.

[Elfive]

They might have phrased it the way they did because some supernaturals can dodge bullets.

[Michael Kenner]

They might have phrased it the way they did because some supernaturals can dodge bullets.

That makes sense but it's still a little confusing if this also applies to non-supernaturals who can't dodge bullets.

You normally can't add a bonus to a non-existent dice pool and be able to roll because of it. A non-existent dice pool and no roll is not equivalent to a roll reduced to zero.

[Bunyip]

Non supernatural creatures can't dodge bullets, but if they're close enough to the shooter (ie, in melee/close combat) they can do their best to not be where the gun is pointing. This is easier against long arms than against pistols, hence the bonus based on the gun's size.

[Enokh]

That makes sense but it's still a little confusing if this also applies to non-supernaturals who can't dodge bullets.

You normally can't add a bonus to a non-existent dice pool and be able to roll because of it. A non-existent dice pool and no roll is not equivalent to a roll reduced to zero.

This was where my confusion came from.

Thanks everyone for helping to clear it up for me!

[Claire Redfield]

Consider that Firearms/ranged attacks with sufficient velocity effectively set the target's Defense to 0, regardless of its normal value. Then the bonus is being added afterward to bump it up to whatever is necessary. Or just consider the Defense being set to (Gun's Size) +1 instead of 0. Either way, the effect is the same. If you want to go further, you could make up a Merit for someone especially skilled at avoiding firearms attacks at close range.

[saibot]

If you want to go further, you could make up a Merit for someone especially skilled at avoiding firearms attacks at close range.

Merits. The ultimate panacea in the Chronicles of Darkness.

[2ptTakrill]

If it helps you to conceptualize it don't think of it has the target's defense but as a conditional modifier against the shooter that reflects the difficulty of using an increasingly unwieldy weapon in a way it wasn't designed for, while simultaneously trying not to hurt himself.

[Claire Redfield]

Merits. The ultimate panacea in the Chronicles of Darkness.

They are pretty versatile and useful, for sure. In fact, I just created one for Hurt Locker that I think is quite cool, and when you see it in context, hopefully you will, too!

[Michael Kenner]

Two more follow up questions for firearms in close combat:

Can you spend willpower to increase your defense above Gun Size +1?
Can you perform a dodge action to double this number and roll it as dice instead?

[Claire Redfield]

Two more follow up questions for firearms in close combat:

Can you spend willpower to increase your defense above Gun Size +1?
Can you perform a dodge action to double this number and roll it as dice instead?

Unclear based on what the book says, but I would very much allow it in my games.

[Leetsepeak]

Two more follow up questions for firearms in close combat:

Can you spend willpower to increase your defense above Gun Size +1?
Can you perform a dodge action to double this number and roll it as dice instead?

I'd allow for both. Mind, in the case of Willpower, you only get a +2 when increasing your Resistance dice pools instead of a +3, so it'd turn your defense of say, 3, into 5.

[Thalen Chase]

So I'd like to post a scenario to get your opinion on, so that I'm clear on what I think I've read in this post:

Close Combat between 2 normal humans... one is unarmed, the other has a firearm.
From what I'm reading, if the gun is size 1, then the unarmed man does not apply their defense.

Now if the gun is size 2... does the unarmed man get an effective defense of [gun size + 1]? i.e. 3.

If that's the case, is there anything preventing the armed attacker from moving away and shooting from range each attack? (assuming they are not grappled)

Thanks!