[CofD] Defense vs. Firearms

[Enokh]

I recently ran into an issue concerning defense vs. firearms. Prior to Chronicles of Darkness, if you were within a few meters of someone you got your defense if they shot you; if they weren't that close, then you no longer got your defense.

However, in Chronicles of Darkness, there are two lines that seem somewhat oppositional. The first, under Defense, directly states you do not get your defense against firearms (this is the section where the "unless they're too close" exception was stated in prior editions/"editions"). The second, under Firearms in Close Combat, talks about how if you're in close combat and trying to shoot your gun, your opponent gets to add the gun's size+1 to their defense, implying that they have a defense to add it to. Or, is it merely trying to state that your Defense is normally zero, but you get to add the size+1 to the 0 Defense? There may, obviously, be other passages I have missed but those are the only two relevant ones I could find.

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can give!

[Almarck]

Yeah that too. WHW. Having wits+dexterity would invalidate some character concepts and require brawlers would need to put more work to be good at it

[WHW]

I think it's good that very important, basic survivability trait is by default calculated by a Skill that is relatively common and easy to give to plethora of character types without feeling weird or out of character? Like, if you make it Brawl by default, then suddenly a lot of characters will have brawl 2 for no other reason than to just not die in combat. Anyone can work out and be in good shape, so Athletics feels more organic and natural on I dunno, Lawyer or Car Mechanic than Weaponry does. Athletics also are way more useful for games that are not combat oriented, so I feel thank 7/10 of CofD characters should have it, even if only to stay true to the genre of most games.

[TheBadWolf]

Well, what would said merits do?

I don't know exactly, there is many opportunities. May be add some dice to DEF, but only during dodge. May be some repost (not to inflict damage, but to inflict some Condition)/
And you forgot the dynamic. Yep, for the start characters this option mostly increases defense, but during the game it;s way cheaper to gain Skill (Athletic) than Attribute (Wits or Dexterity).

[Almarck]

What about defensive some Merits with the Prerequisites: Athletic X, Brawl Y?

Well, what would said merits do?
Boost the defense even more? Sub a skill for an attribute? Which honestly might be a downgrade unless you're heavily invested into melee?


As it is right now, the combatant with better strength and skill in a brawl will be more likely to hit, with the opponent lacking in skill of these areas is more likely to get hit and miss. This is fine in my opinion because it's simple, very simple and reflect the trope of "Skill" matering.

[TheBadWolf]

Then you run into the problem of people who are proficient in hand to hand combat who are unable to apply their skills and combat training to defense.

What about some defensive Merits with the Prerequisites: Athletic X, Brawl Y?
At least, Athletic will not be the God-stat.

[Almarck]

P.S. Also, I still think, that DEX+WIT could be better formula for basic Defense than that currently used.

Then you run into the problem of people who are proficient in hand to hand combat who are unable to apply their skills and combat training to defense.


Also the issue of Dexterity and Wit being valued even more than they already are and gunmen don't need hand to hand combat training to stand up against meleers who are discouraged enough as it is without supernatural powers. I like the Defense calculation rules as they are, personally.

[TheBadWolf]

IMHO, for basic rules, characters should use Defense/2 (rounded dawn). +1 to basic Def for every -1 to size, and vise versa. The other rules - the same.
P.S. Also, I still think, that DEX+WIT could be better formula for basic Defense than that currently used.

[Lundgren]

This is how I interpret the size+1 rule. It is only to be used when the target is in melee range, and is representing that the target will try to move, grab or slap the gun away. With a small gun, it would be possible to get some distance with one hand, and holding the weapon out of reach while pulling the trigger (or perhaps just trying to angle the weapon by the wrist to make it point in the right direction). With a larger weapon, you don't really have that option and would have a harder time to get the weapon being pointed toward the opponent.

I haven't got around to read up if anything else will affect the defense, but someone skilled in a combat or self defense fighting style probably should have an extra bonus, and a shooter not trained for the situation would probably not keep the gun out of the opponents reach (which should give the size+1 for all weapon sizes). But now I'm talking about how I probably will house-rule things if I ever get a group together for some CofD.

[WHW]

Circumstancial bonus from GM.
As for styles, freestyling and mixing dots from hurt locker really makes me want to make a martial oriented charakter.

[nofather]

Providing it was slow and couldn't dodge bullets, you would probably give it a flag that allowed it to be easily hit by things aimed at it. Or just give it a low Defense and, presumably, high armor or Health.

[Almarck]

Another perhaps sometimes relevant question? How does the Defense on firearms work when your opponent is a really freakishly big melee monster right in front of you?

Such as say, a size 25 dragon or a huge combat robot? Or really, any sort of big monster.

[nofather]

First dot of CQC Style allows you to flat out run for the Cover instead of dropping prone as reaction.
It's one of best first dots.

Totally. I haven't had a character with fighting styles in years but that's a solid first.

[WHW]

First dot of CQC Style allows you to flat out run for the Cover instead of dropping prone as reaction.
It's one of best first dots.

[nofather]

It's worth noting that you can 'go prone' before your turn if someone whips a gun out and starts firing. It gives them a -2 to hit you and takes up your subsequent turn but it is a method of defense.