Seeking Help for Fan Project (New Demon Splat)

[ShadowKnight1224]

After discussing the finer thematic differences between a refluffed Demon: the Descent and Demon: the Fallen, I came to the conclusion that it would be a worthwhile endeavour to work on a major Demon splat that is A) different from the technognostic aesthetics and espionage theme of DtD, B) different from the religious angle of DtF, and C) not related to Angels at all.

So my Demon splat is a standalone major template that is intended to be very crossover friendly and can be inserted smoothly into any cosmology without much fuzz. It doesn't have a long or cumbersome backstory that might require finagling to fit in a game, and it features some innovative ideas with regards to powers (one of my design goals was to break away from the powers rated 1 to 5 dots).

Another big goal was to divorce Demon from religion, whether classical or technognostic. This was easy to achieve by imagining demons as physical incarnations of Vice, using the 2.0 rules for creating custom Vices. This allows for demons to retain most of their classical imagery without actually incorporating any unwanted religious connotations (though at the same time, keeping the door open for STs that do wish to incorporate them; it's trivially easy to replace the Core Vice for a Sin).

So, with the preamble out of the way, I have most of the basic structure and ideas written down, though I still have some blind spots (Z-splat) and could use some ideas in other areas (such as the powers). I'd also be happy to accept some short fiction and flavour bits, to fluff up some areas and make it as close as I can to a "proper" fansplat.

Here's the link, comments are enabled:

Demon: The Release.

Thanks in advance!

[milo v3]

Is there are reason to not just expand on the Possessed from Inferno?

[Leliel]

Honestly, these guys already seem like it, Milo.

When I come back from school I'll throw out some narrative themes.

[Leliel]

Actually, I can throw out some ideas in the car.

Jailers: If there was a hypothetical Antagonist Chronicle (ie Strix, Idigam.. ), it would be named after these guys. Everyone else, demons have been there, or could theorize how they got there. Jailers? They're the result of excessive Virtue, something beings of Vice find incredibly confusing, if not horrifying. Really, their problem is they've forgotten what it means to have truly selfish passions or rebellious impulses, hence why they can be so...weird. Ironically, it's the ones perfectly fine with their new nature that are probably the ones you can call a truce with most easily; they're the ones who were deliberately trying to free themselves from selfishness in life, and thus actually come from a perspective that gets emotion (they had it, they just don't want it-and get why other people would, even if they deride it). Most, though, came into the chains almost unwillingly; for them, their "virtue" is an extension of self-loathing.

[ShadowKnight1224]

Is there are reason to not just expand on the Possessed from Inferno?

Well, to me, there is a crucial and fundamental difference between the Possessed and materialised Demons. The Possessed are drawing from an already pre-established identity. They have a name, friends, family, a job, and so on. Materialised demons have none of that. They know how human culture works thanks to their summoning (and even those materialised demons that were never summoned learn quickly), and the Creature Comforts ability makes sure that they don't need to get a job, seek out fake paperwork, and so on. Their power stat is even called Identity for a reason. Demons building their own identity is a core part of the game.

I could totally have the Possessed as either a minor template or another antagonist, though (or both).

Actually, I can throw out some ideas in the car.

Jailers: If there was a hypothetical Antagonist Chronicle (ie Strix, Idigam.. ), it would be named after these guys. Everyone else, demons have been there, or could theorize how they got there. Jailers? They're the result of excessive Virtue, something beings of Vice find incredibly confusing, if not horrifying. Really, their problem is they've forgotten what it means to have truly selfish passions or rebellious impulses, hence why they can be so...weird. Ironically, it's the ones perfectly fine with their new nature that are probably the ones you can call a truce with most easily; they're the ones who were deliberately trying to free themselves from selfishness in life, and thus actually come from a perspective that gets emotion (they had it, they just don't want it-and get why other people would, even if they deride it). Most, though, came into the chains almost unwillingly; for them, their "virtue" is an extension of self-loathing.

I completely agree that Jailors would be the "[Noun] Chronicles" for Demon: the Release.

That said, I considered the idea of basing Jailors on Virtues, but then I realised that Virtue and Vice are actually both sides of the same coin. They need each other. If there was no Vice, Virtuous actions wouldn't be laudable, because there wouldn't really be another option that would tempt people away from Virtue. And likewise, without Virtue, there would be no struggle in the temptation. Virtue and Vice coexist because they both pull people in different directions, generating the necessary conflict for humanity to express its free will. Demon: the Release and Princess: the Hopeful are both complementary sides of the same coin.

So instead, I chose to base Jailors off the idea of self-repression and misaimed penance. A Jailor is, at their core, someone who fucked up and eventually accepted responsibility for what they did. They wrapped those chains around themselves and became tragic figures. Not all want redemption. Some just want eternal punishment. Others believe they're doing the right thing, redeeming themselves, and don't want to free themselves from their own chains.

But yes, I absolutely think self-loathing is a core theme for Jailors.

Thanks for the comments, btw!

[Leliel]

Thanks. Didn't read as thoroughly as I ought, but...

The other antagonists seem to be ones the Released can at least relate too, even work with at times. Unfettered are both the allure and ultimate danger of losing oneself to freedom completely, until that freedom becomes self-destructive (ie, low-functioning sociopaths). Drifters are figures of pity who were generally made that way instead of losing Identity by themselves, while Abandoned are often untrustworthy but powerful shadowy allies and mentors (the trick is finding out what's keeping them from Release, and then trying your best to avoid becoming part of that obstacle).

Akalu are in a class of their own-they're the living, once human reminders that consequences are a Thing That Exists; they're these shrieking spiritual cannibals because you made them that way. Each one is a stark evidence of the fact that temptation is regarded as a bad thing for a very good reason-eventually, hunger will consume all if you let it, leaving only ash behind. I'd also rule that there is a way to guarantee an Akalu evolves into a true demon, from a mindless ravening Satan into regal, self-willed Lucifer (replace with your own semi-religious metaphors as appropriate); the demon is consumed willingly. Thus, the ultimate temptation; are you willing to accept ultimate destruction on behalf of another who may squander it? You actually get a guaranteed benefit, though-eternal freedom from the Oubliette (you won't be able to enjoy it, admittedly, but that prison-realm is often more than torture enough that many demons probably view oblivion as a much more pleasant alternative).

[ShadowKnight1224]

Thanks. Didn't read as thoroughly as I ought, but...

The other antagonists seem to be ones the Released can at least relate too, even work with at times. Unfettered are both the allure and ultimate danger of losing oneself to freedom completely, until that freedom becomes self-destructive (ie, low-functioning sociopaths). Drifters are figures of pity who were generally made that way instead of losing Identity by themselves, while Abandoned are often untrustworthy but powerful shadowy allies and mentors (the trick is finding out what's keeping them from Release, and then trying your best to avoid becoming part of that obstacle).

Akalu are in a class of their own-they're the living, once human reminders that consequences are a Thing That Exists; they're these shrieking spiritual cannibals because you made them that way. Each one is a stark evidence of the fact that temptation is regarded as a bad thing for a very good reason-eventually, hunger will consume all if you let it, leaving only ash behind. I'd also rule that there is a way to guarantee an Akalu evolves into a true demon, from a mindless ravening Satan into regal, self-willed Lucifer (replace with your own semi-religious metaphors as appropriate); the demon is consumed willingly. Thus, the ultimate temptation; are you willing to accept ultimate destruction on behalf of another who may squander it? You actually get a guaranteed benefit, though-eternal freedom from the Oubliette (you won't be able to enjoy it, admittedly, but that prison-realm is often more than torture enough that many demons probably view oblivion as a much more pleasant alternative).

You nailed everything pretty much perfectly, yeah.

I have this general idea for the Unfettered, but I'm currently a bit uninspired in terms of mechanical differences. The Ardour theft is to make them dangerous, but it feels a bit tacked on, not terribly thematically appropriate. I'd love more interesting ideas. I'm pretty happy with the Drifters. They're meant to be tragic antagonists that can't help but cause harm and mayhem because they are metaphysically incomplete, much like Prometheans. The Reluctant are something suggested to me by Vent0 that I really need to expand on (and would also love ideas on), because they can occupy an interesting role in a Demon chronicle, sort of like a hands-off True Fae or God-Machine that may or may not hinder or help you, according to its own plans.

You nailed Akalu so well. The Consumed are Consequences personified. An Akalu is what it is, monstrous as it may be, precisely because you made them that way, and it serves as a powerful reminder to demons that they are not human. A demon may feel just like one of the gang, always welcome, always treated well, and then an Akalu spawns and they remember that no, demons are creatures of Vice given flesh, and their very nature contaminates mortals like an infection. My overarching theme for Demon is "back and forth corruption." Demons corrupt humanity, willingly or not, and humanity corrupts them right back.

I absolutely love your idea that demons may give themselves over willingly as a way to both end an eternal existence and to avoid the Oubliette for good. Maybe some of them think that by passing on their Vice to another, whatever shell of a soul they have (if the theory that demons are made of hollow shells is true) will pass on to the afterlife.

[StSword]

If you decide it's worth the trouble to fully incorporate the possessed from inferno, you might want to make possession a condition, like being claimed.

[Leliel]

While I'm waiting on the bus, here's what I'd imagine the Three Traditional Releases to be:

"He's summoned his lover ('prostitute', the part of his mind still concerned with sin hisses, but he learned to ignore that) several times now; his initial plan has long been cast aside, and now the incubus comes because his summoner wishes to see him, and no other reason. As the petals drift from the circle, however, he notices they are catching aflame and releasing a heady pursue. He wonders if something had gone awry when his demonic lover arrives not gracefully, but face meeting the ground-then wonders if perhaps something has gone right, when he sees the expression of utter joy on a less beautiful, less inhuman face. They have always embraced, but this is the first time they make love."

"He knows something's gone wrong the moment the oni devours the souls. Thunder peals through the air as the talismans burst into blue flame, and the demon ogre's club manifests. With every strike against the binding chamber, it becomes a little less like an ogre; blue skin changes pigment, horns and claws shrink, and its loincloth ripples and changes into a tasteful three-piece suit. As the oni breaks free and rushes for him, he sees his mirror image raising the club.

The temple is falling. There are no fault lines nearby, but the earthquake strikes anyway, though there's no fatalities among the cult; they smartly fled as soon as they saw the goddess' image begin to melt. As the three priests survey the devastated town, wondering what evil could have overcome their idol's protection, they fail to notice the red-eyed woman, picking clay out of her hair, booking a passport to a far wealthier city."

[ShadowKnight1224]

If you decide it's worth the trouble to fully incorporate the possessed from inferno, you might want to make possession a condition, like being claimed.

That's a good idea. I may do a much more simplified version of the spirit claiming rules.

While I'm waiting on the bus, here's what I'd imagine the Three Traditional Releases to be:

That is awesome. If you don't mind, I'd like to use that in the gdoc, with credit.

I'll be doing Brands today, hopefully get an idea of how demon "society" works (and I use that term loosely).

[ReshyShira]

So are these demons a type of Manifest Goetia? A thought or concept with physical form and thoughts of it's own?

[ShadowKnight1224]

So are these demons a type of Manifest Goetia? A thought or concept with physical form and thoughts of it's own?

Aren't Goetia born of a specific person's Vice, and tailored to them? If that's what you mean, then no.

If you mean Goetia in a more general term, such as "Astral-born spirit aligned with a specific Vice", then yes, these demons would technically count as that.

[ReshyShira]

Aren't Goetia born of a specific person's Vice, and tailored to them? If that's what you mean, then no.

If you mean Goetia in a more general term, such as "Astral-born spirit aligned with a specific Vice", then yes, these demons would technically count as that.

I believe that they can be both. Goetia is the generic term for the entities of the Astral. Archetypes, walkers, naturae etc.

Might not be totally accurate though in my assessment.

I will say though that I am working on a homwbrew splatbook on a similar idea, but rather than a vice you embody a concept (specifically life in this instance).

[Leliel]

That is awesome. If you don't mind, I'd like to use that in the gdoc, with credit.

I'm fine with that.

[ShadowKnight1224]

I believe that they can be both. Goetia is the generic term for the entities of the Astral. Archetypes, walkers, naturae etc.

Might not be totally accurate though in my assessment.

I will say though that I am working on a homwbrew splatbook on a similar idea, but rather than a vice you embody a concept (specifically life in this instance).

Yeah, if Goetia is a general term for Astral entities, then it certainly applies.

That's a pretty neat idea, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for it. For these demons though, some of them do very much believe they're Goetia, especially if they hang around mages. Not many will try to play the part though, as dehumanising oneself tends to be rather dangerous and leads to low Attraction. But that's definitely a solid concept for one of the Unfettered, a demon that is convinced they're nothing but materialised Goetia and try to act accordingly.

EDIT: Leliel : Thanks!