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Seeking Help for Fan Project (New Demon Splat)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post

    Yeah, if Goetia is a general term for Astral entities, then it certainly applies.

    That's a pretty neat idea, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for it. For these demons though, some of them do very much believe they're Goetia, especially if they hang around mages. Not many will try to play the part though, as dehumanising oneself tends to be rather dangerous and leads to low Attraction. But that's definitely a solid concept for one of the Unfettered, a demon that is convinced they're nothing but materialised Goetia and try to act accordingly.
    Still very much a rough idea, but I'm trying to focus on aspects that evoke logic/philosophy/communication to get that whole "you're a critter of the mind" aspect functional. It's intended to build off the fluff in Mage regarding the Supernal Dragons.


    Like I'm thinking of renaming the power stat to Axiom as in "an established rule or principle or a self-evident truth" because they are (in part) Supernal creatures, but also largely Astral ones. So your power stat is how well established your "rule, principle or self-evident truth" is. Almost meta, isn't it? Their Axiom is a physical object in this case, a crystal from the Supernal and the thing rooting them to the material world and giving them form (But as it is Supernal, it is hurt by the fallen world due to the Paradox and Dissonance within it).

    I'm thinking of their pre-hatching being called the "Preamble" as in "the introductory part of a statute, deed, or the like, stating the reasons and intent of what follows" to push the angle of them being a developing idea.

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    • #17
      Those are pretty interesting ideas, I think you should go ahead with it, and maybe we can have mentions of each other's fan splats in our write-ups, since they seem to share a common origin. Looking forward to it!


      My homebrew hub.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
        Those are pretty interesting ideas, I think you should go ahead with it, and maybe we can have mentions of each other's fan splats in our write-ups, since they seem to share a common origin. Looking forward to it!
        Goetia: the inhabitants of the Astral Realms. Goetia have no native Manifestations (they don’t need them in the Astral) and have Influence over the concept they embody. Goetia summoned out into the material world with Mind magic exist in the “mental” Twilight of projectors and Auspex-using vampires, but can be granted ephemeral bodies and Manifestations using Spirit or Death magic.

        Supernal Entities: Fae, Demons, Shades, Beasts, and Angels. Supernal entities have no Influences or Manifestations, and don’t even use Essence—they use Arcana and Mana instead.
        It is said, however, that these are places where beasts, trees, the world and the stars dream. They do not cater to visitors’ preconceptions. Dream-beasts and elementals appear as giant versions of their physical counterparts, or assume abstract forms beyond human imagination.
        This is from the mage open development blog. The second is what I am planning on building off of. Ideally without bastardizing's fluff mage in the mean time.
        Last edited by ReshyShira; 01-22-2016, 09:58 PM.

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        • #19
          Sounds good! Hope it goes well, my inspirational source is less Mage (though the Astral divisions get namedropped) and more the 1e Inferno bluebook.


          My homebrew hub.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
            Sounds good! Hope it goes well, my inspirational source is less Mage (though the Astral divisions get namedropped) and more the 1e Inferno bluebook.
            Not familiar with that, sorry. I like mage though and it has the most... Comprehensive cosmology? So the idea that I could make an entire splat based around one facet of it is interesting. Plus making the Anima Mundi have a life of its own is neat too. It wouldn't be the only thing there, but probably the most likely thing you could run into. Oh and the game lacks dragons, so I'm filling out that niche in my own way.

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            • #21
              Inferno was a sourcebook that dealt with incorporating demons into your chronicles, from a mortals standpoint, and it's most commonly known for having the Possessed minor template, where you struggled with retaining control of yourself. I don't really enjoy that kind of gameplay (or the idea of the demon "consuming" , but I did really appreciate the book for trying to step away from the religious associations and instead focused on demons as incarnations of Vice. That's the baseline for this fansplat. I didn't want to tie to Mage because I loathe the idea of making mages "objectively right" about stuff. I prefer to just namedrop things for ease of crossover and then try to deliberately make sure things don't fit perfectly.


              My homebrew hub.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                Inferno was a sourcebook that dealt with incorporating demons into your chronicles, from a mortals standpoint, and it's most commonly known for having the Possessed minor template, where you struggled with retaining control of yourself. I don't really enjoy that kind of gameplay (or the idea of the demon "consuming" , but I did really appreciate the book for trying to step away from the religious associations and instead focused on demons as incarnations of Vice. That's the baseline for this fansplat. I didn't want to tie to Mage because I loathe the idea of making mages "objectively right" about stuff. I prefer to just namedrop things for ease of crossover and then try to deliberately make sure things don't fit perfectly.
                Never saw Inferno then, so that's why it's unfamiliar to me.

                I come from D&D, so I prefer a comprehensive cosmology. Plus, I have no interest in reinventing the wheel.

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                • #23
                  I'm originally from D&D as well (all the way back to 3.5e), but I prefer to use each tool for what it was designed to do. CofD is about mysteries (that's how I choose to interpret the "darkness" in WoD and CofD, less as evil and gritty grimdark and more as just mysteries and unexplained phenomena). I like almost-comprehensive cosmologies. They're comprehensive enough to make sense at first blush, so you can grasp them at first blush, but still have contradictions and inconsistencies that mean that nobody is actually objectively right or is even capable of apprehending objective truth (I take the Uncertainty Principle and run it to its metaphysically logical conclusion).


                  My homebrew hub.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                    I'm originally from D&D as well (all the way back to 3.5e), but I prefer to use each tool for what it was designed to do. CofD is about mysteries (that's how I choose to interpret the "darkness" in WoD and CofD, less as evil and gritty grimdark and more as just mysteries and unexplained phenomena). I like almost-comprehensive cosmologies. They're comprehensive enough to make sense at first blush, so you can grasp them at first blush, but still have contradictions and inconsistencies that mean that nobody is actually objectively right or is even capable of apprehending objective truth (I take the Uncertainty Principle and run it to its metaphysically logical conclusion).
                    Well of course, I understand that. Albeit, nothing I dislike more than when someone says "It is impossible to understand this, don't bother trying" as that's a rather nihilist view of things. I'd rather build them to fit an existing fluff, rather than try to ham-handedly make my own fluff from scratch. Plus, it gives opportunities to explore material that the other splats haven't really gone into detail about. It fills holes, rather than adds more.

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                    • #25
                      Yeah, I remember the cold iron thread. Personally, I think the issue is that one playstyle wants to explore and understand that part of the cosmology, and the other playstyle enjoys the mystery. A lot of players enjoy it when they don't know what's going to happen to their characters, or how the world works, because it elicits in them the feeling you get when someone gives you a surprise gift. It's a sense of wonder and/or terror that keeps the player interested. Other players feel very uncomfortable when they aren't allowed to understand the rules and what's going to happen to them, they feel that their agency is removed or that it's not fair. So at the end of the day it's really a matter of incompatible playstyles where the answer is going to vary from table to table, and each playstyle wants to be validated as "the right one" by The Powers That Be.

                      The reason I choose to make my own fluff is that then there are no contradictions with pre-existent material, so it can be smoothly added to any chronicle without worrying that it's going to give the ST a headache. The problem with filling holes is that what you write might later get contradicted or retconned by future books. If you create your own fluff and then anchor it to the setting in a way that's hard to shake up, you give players and storytellers maximum ease of use.


                      My homebrew hub.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                        Yeah, I remember the cold iron thread. Personally, I think the issue is that one playstyle wants to explore and understand that part of the cosmology, and the other playstyle enjoys the mystery. A lot of players enjoy it when they don't know what's going to happen to their characters, or how the world works, because it elicits in them the feeling you get when someone gives you a surprise gift. It's a sense of wonder and/or terror that keeps the player interested. Other players feel very uncomfortable when they aren't allowed to understand the rules and what's going to happen to them, they feel that their agency is removed or that it's not fair. So at the end of the day it's really a matter of incompatible playstyles where the answer is going to vary from table to table, and each playstyle wants to be validated as "the right one" by The Powers That Be.

                        The reason I choose to make my own fluff is that then there are no contradictions with pre-existent material, so it can be smoothly added to any chronicle without worrying that it's going to give the ST a headache. The problem with filling holes is that what you write might later get contradicted or retconned by future books. If you create your own fluff and then anchor it to the setting in a way that's hard to shake up, you give players and storytellers maximum ease of use.
                        So, what you're saying is that it is impossible to roleplay a character's ignorance of the meta if you, yourself, as a player know the universes meta? You have to have some kind of foundation, there's a reason why we have "settings" and "splatbooks" in the first place. Otherwise, why would we limit ourselves in such a manner when we can free-form so many more options? Well, personally speaking, it's to create a sense of depth. The trappings of the idea help act to frame the idea.

                        If you want to play a game where the players aren't supposed to know the rules of the game, I'd recommend playing Paranoia. It in fact says you should kill off any players that have read the rules.

                        However, I don't think you quite understand. Just because I am creating a creature within a space known to exist does not mean that mages are 100% correct about everything they have ever speculated about ever. That's an absurdity. The point of making two splats with the same "backstory" is to outline how their perspectives frame the setting. In this case, how would the children of the Supernal Dragons see Mages? How do things look different when you look at it from a different angle.


                        As for contradictions, you're still basing it in the world of darkness. The setting can change just as any of the splats may change.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post
                          So, what you're saying is that it is impossible to roleplay a character's ignorance of the meta if you, yourself, as a player know the universes meta? You have to have some kind of foundation, there's a reason why we have "settings" and "splatbooks" in the first place. Otherwise, why would we limit ourselves in such a manner when we can free-form so many more options? Well, personally speaking, it's to create a sense of depth. The trappings of the idea help act to frame the idea.
                          That's not what I said at all. I was exclusively talking about player playstyles, not about in-character attitudes. You can roleplay your character any which way you want, but some players want mysteries to be unknowable and others want them to be knowable. The players that want mysteries to be knowable like tidy, comprehensive cosmologies. The ones that want things to be unknowable want conflicting cosmologies that don't make sense. Both playstyles are valid, and there's no "one true playstyle." You just gotta make sure everyone is on the same page before the game starts.

                          Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post
                          If you want to play a game where the players aren't supposed to know the rules of the game, I'd recommend playing Paranoia. It in fact says you should kill off any players that have read the rules.
                          Yeah, I've played it, it's a cute game. That said, some players do enjoy not knowing. It may not be your cup of tea, but I've played with several. The less information they have, the more they can identify with their own character's ignorance, the more they will enjoy themselves. It's just the way some people enjoy playing.

                          Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post
                          However, I don't think you quite understand. Just because I am creating a creature within a space known to exist does not mean that mages are 100% correct about everything they have ever speculated about ever. That's an absurdity. The point of making two splats with the same "backstory" is to outline how their perspectives frame the setting. In this case, how would the children of the Supernal Dragons see Mages? How do things look different when you look at it from a different angle.
                          I agree there's value in it, but the problem is that basing a comprehensive cosmology on a single splat can push that splat into undue prominence. That your natural question is "How do Supernal Dragons see Mages?" instead of "How do Supernal Dragons see Draconic Changelings or the Divine Fire of a Promethean?" is sort of what I mean.

                          Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post
                          As for contradictions, you're still basing it in the world of darkness. The setting can change just as any of the splats may change.
                          Indeed, but it's more likely that future books will fill in currently pre-existent gaps in order to give players and STs more ideas/chronicles/mechanics (for example, how The Book of the Dead, fairly late in nWoD's run, gave us proper Underworld rules several years after the Underworld was mentioned as being a thing that existed).

                          So I prefer to simply append my own stuff onto the current setting than fill in blanks that may be filled in later by official material.


                          My homebrew hub.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                            I agree there's value in it, but the problem is that basing a comprehensive cosmology on a single splat can push that splat into undue prominence. That your natural question is "How do Supernal Dragons see Mages?" instead of "How do Supernal Dragons see Draconic Changelings or the Divine Fire of a Promethean?" is sort of what I mean.
                            Because Mage has dragons as the source of their original exposure to the Supernal, allegedly. Dragons are all over their symbolism, they even have a group of Mages that seek the "World Dragon" who supposedly has the power to eliminate Paradox from the world if they could find it.

                            Actually on those two there's some tie in to those. Dragons use "Vigor" a sort of reservoir of "life energy." It's not explicitly the same thing, but it could be implicitly the same thing. As for Draconic Changelings, what do you think could happen if a Dragon goes bonkers in a dissonance filled world? Again, there's more implicit ties rather than explicit ties. Mages are more explicit because it's based in the Mage's Hubris. That's the buy-in. They have been negatively influenced by the Hubris of mages over the knowledge of the Supernal. If you find that buy-in utterly unacceptable then you're probably not the target audience.


                            Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                            Indeed, but it's more likely that future books will fill in currently pre-existent gaps in order to give players and STs more ideas/chronicles/mechanics (for example, how The Book of the Dead, fairly late in nWoD's run, gave us proper Underworld rules several years after the Underworld was mentioned as being a thing that existed).

                            So I prefer to simply append my own stuff onto the current setting than fill in blanks that may be filled in later by official material.
                            Oh well, guess we disagree then. I prefer to work off of existing systems, there's going to be weaknesses to that, but one advantage is that people would probably already kind of get the gist.
                            Last edited by ReshyShira; 01-23-2016, 02:09 AM.

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                            • #29
                              All right, Brands are officially written up, including little bits of interlocking fiction to add some fluff.

                              In short:

                              Firebrands develop their identity by feeling socially important, like someone that matters. Nightbrands develop their identity by relishing in the freedom of anonymity. Highbrands develop their identity by reaching for the transcendent. Coldbrands develop their identity by dedicating themselves to satisfy their cravings. Deepbrands develop their identity by relishing in the simple pleasures of an "ordinary" life.


                              My homebrew hub.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                                After discussing the finer thematic differences between a refluffed Demon: the Descent and Demon: the Fallen, I came to the conclusion that it would be a worthwhile endeavour to work on a major Demon splat that is A) different from the technognostic aesthetics and espionage theme of DtD, B) different from the religious angle of DtF, and C) not related to Angels at all.

                                So my Demon splat is a standalone major template that is intended to be very crossover friendly and can be inserted smoothly into any cosmology without much fuzz. It doesn't have a long or cumbersome backstory that might require finagling to fit in a game, and it features some innovative ideas with regards to powers (one of my design goals was to break away from the powers rated 1 to 5 dots).

                                Another big goal was to divorce Demon from religion, whether classical or technognostic. This was easy to achieve by imagining demons as physical incarnations of Vice, using the 2.0 rules for creating custom Vices. This allows for demons to retain most of their classical imagery without actually incorporating any unwanted religious connotations (though at the same time, keeping the door open for STs that do wish to incorporate them; it's trivially easy to replace the Core Vice for a Sin).

                                So, with the preamble out of the way, I have most of the basic structure and ideas written down, though I still have some blind spots (Z-splat) and could use some ideas in other areas (such as the powers). I'd also be happy to accept some short fiction and flavour bits, to fluff up some areas and make it as close as I can to a "proper" fansplat.

                                Here's the link, comments are enabled:

                                Demon: The Release.

                                Thanks in advance!
                                I've had a look through and it seems like it would be a lot of fun to play. Are you still working on it, because if not I'd be happy to help with writing out mechanics for the Devilries and perhaps coming up with a few more Demonskins.


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