Seeking Help for Fan Project (New Demon Splat)

[ShadowKnight1224]

After discussing the finer thematic differences between a refluffed Demon: the Descent and Demon: the Fallen, I came to the conclusion that it would be a worthwhile endeavour to work on a major Demon splat that is A) different from the technognostic aesthetics and espionage theme of DtD, B) different from the religious angle of DtF, and C) not related to Angels at all.

So my Demon splat is a standalone major template that is intended to be very crossover friendly and can be inserted smoothly into any cosmology without much fuzz. It doesn't have a long or cumbersome backstory that might require finagling to fit in a game, and it features some innovative ideas with regards to powers (one of my design goals was to break away from the powers rated 1 to 5 dots).

Another big goal was to divorce Demon from religion, whether classical or technognostic. This was easy to achieve by imagining demons as physical incarnations of Vice, using the 2.0 rules for creating custom Vices. This allows for demons to retain most of their classical imagery without actually incorporating any unwanted religious connotations (though at the same time, keeping the door open for STs that do wish to incorporate them; it's trivially easy to replace the Core Vice for a Sin).

So, with the preamble out of the way, I have most of the basic structure and ideas written down, though I still have some blind spots (Z-splat) and could use some ideas in other areas (such as the powers). I'd also be happy to accept some short fiction and flavour bits, to fluff up some areas and make it as close as I can to a "proper" fansplat.

Here's the link, comments are enabled:

Demon: The Release.

Thanks in advance!

[ShadowKnight1224]

The idea was kind of that the lesser demons were too impatient and in tearing their way out of the Oubliette, they stunted and twisted themselves, becoming little more than mindless beasts with a ravenous hunger for vice.

Well, the problem with that is that it undercuts the emotional weight of the Oubliette. Either I have to make the Oubliette not so bad that being a lesser demon is something to be feared, or being a mindless beast becomes better than the endless nothingness.

How about instead if demons are corrupted spirits? Or, if we don't want to go there, they are created when a demon suffers a dramatic failure when doing something Ardour-related?

One thing about the way that pacts work, I think that they should perhaps feed off of the one making the pact with the demon for their permanent costs while only costing the demon temporary things.

Well, the demon already gets something permanent: Demonic XP. That said, I am intrigued by the idea of the demon feeding off the act of Pact-making, especially if it's a different way for them to obtain Ardour than normal. After all, the accepting a Pact ought to be like indulging in a Vice, which is pretty much what Ardour is about. But I don't know, I see the potential in the idea, I just can't quite figure out how to make it unique.

I've finished off the Ten Thousand Tongues Demonskin. I don't know what you'll think of it.

I really liked it! I had to make a small adjustment with the contested roll. I went with Manipulation + Identity vs. Composure + Supernatural Advantage to keep it simple and accessible. I also added a specification on the Subtle Devirly interaction to make it so that it's only word-based deception that it protects against.

That said, I quite liked it. Great job!

I'm just asking this because I have a burning passion for Indiana-Jones-type shenanigans, but would there be any support for this kind of thing? Just off the top of my head I can imagine one of the Reluctant's ancient cults building a temple to it somewhere in the back of beyond but will there be any kind of magical demon-artefacts?

I think that something similar to MtC's Relics could be used, where each has a benefit but also a curse. In this case, the curse would probably be the Wanton Condition towards whatever vice the artefact's creator embodied.

Well, I hadn't considered it until you brought it up, but I definitely think there's plenty of room for Indiana-Jones-type shenanigans. Not only in the shape of Reluctant cults, but also the devices you mention. Something I had been toying with for the Merit section was the ability to "pour" Ardour into something (or perhaps crystallise it into a ruby). This would allow demons to regulate their Ardour Auras without wasting Ardour. I was also considering making these Ardour repositories valuable for their ability to power arcane rituals and/or devices. Perhaps we could take a cue from Promethean and create a minor template for mortals, where they become "inspired" by prolonged exposure to demons and that gives them the talent to use Ardour repositories to craft objects of power.

This gives demons yet another venue in which they influence mortals, but the results are beyond their control. You can then have Indiana-Jones-style adventures tracking down these objects and dealing with their effects on their surroundings.

[ajf115]

I'm just asking this because I have a burning passion for Indiana-Jones-type shenanigans, but would there be any support for this kind of thing? Just off the top of my head I can imagine one of the Reluctant's ancient cults building a temple to it somewhere in the back of beyond but will there be any kind of magical demon-artefacts?

I think that something similar to MtC's Relics could be used, where each has a benefit but also a curse. In this case, the curse would probably be the Wanton Condition towards whatever vice the artefact's creator embodied.

[ajf115]

I've finished off the Ten Thousand Tongues Demonskin. I don't know what you'll think of it.

[ajf115]

One thing about the way that pacts work, I think that they should perhaps feed off of the one making the pact with the demon for their permanent costs while only costing the demon temporary things.

[ajf115]

That's a really good idea, actually, ajf! I think that has the potential to fit what people are looking for when it comes to a demon supplement that isn't Fallen or Descent.

The idea was kind of that the lesser demons were too impatient and in tearing their way out of the Oubliette, they stunted and twisted themselves, becoming little more than mindless beasts with a ravenous hunger for vice.

[ShadowKnight1224]

How's Demon going?

It wasn't actually going at all until now. I had some time off work so my friends have been keeping me busy for the last couple of weeks. I've only been able to make the occasional short post, but I hope to dedicate this weekend to catch up on my projects.

Hi Shadowknight, i've added a couple of suggestions to the GDoc, namely a new Demonskin that's partially written up and a description for Sybil's Sight. I hope that's OK.

Also, are there going to be 'lesser demons'? Like, demons which materialised too early (I.e. when they were under Rank 4) and so do not possess sapience. I think you might be able to have something like that filling a similar spot to the Hedgebeasts from Changeling. Just a thought.

Hi! Thanks for the suggestions, I've gone ahead and approved them. Feel free to add more if inspiration strikes you!

That's an interesting idea. My idea for Lesser Demons was going to hinge around summonings gone wrong. Demons can't really leave the Oubliette on their own before they're powerful enough to break free, that's sort of the whole problem with the Oubliette. That said, they can certainly be summoned, and things can definitely go wrong enough in a summoning that a demon that's not powerful enough might be left stranded in the material plane. That is, of course, if something sufficiently catastrophic happens during the ritual.

My tentative rule of thumb is to treat lesser demons as spirits with certain custom quirks (perhaps they run on Ardour instead of Essence and have access to one or two Devilries instead of Numina). They definitely don't have Brands or Demonskins, and are Ephemeral Entities, but we can actually use these Lesser Demons to incorporate the Possession mechanics from Inferno.

That's a really good idea, actually, ajf! I think that has the potential to fit what people are looking for when it comes to a demon supplement that isn't Fallen or Descent.

[ajf115]

Thank you! Looking forward to your thoughts and comments.

Hi Shadowknight, i've added a couple of suggestions to the GDoc, namely a new Demonskin that's partially written up and a description for Sybil's Sight. I hope that's OK.

Also, are there going to be 'lesser demons'? Like, demons which materialised too early (I.e. when they were under Rank 4) and so do not possess sapience. I think you might be able to have something like that filling a similar spot to the Hedgebeasts from Changeling. Just a thought.

[ajf115]

How's Demon going?

[ShadowKnight1224]

Just a thought, when you're working on the merits it might be a good idea to put in a re-skinned version of the Cult merit from Demon the Descent. With their powers and focus on the indulgence of vice it would be fairly easy to create one (I know I wouldn't have much against joining a vice cult...).

That's actually an excellent idea. I think, though, that I might instead use the Mystery Cult merit from the new CofD corebook. I don't really have access to DtD, so I can't compare if it's any different. That said, I'm sure I can reverse-engineer a Cult Leader merit for demons to take. Thanks for the suggestion!

This looks really interesting. I'll keep reading.

Thank you! Looking forward to your thoughts and comments.

[ErikModi]

This looks really interesting. I'll keep reading.

[ajf115]

Just a thought, when you're working on the merits it might be a good idea to put in a re-skinned version of the Cult merit from Demon the Descent. With their powers and focus on the indulgence of vice it would be fairly easy to create one (I know I wouldn't have much against joining a vice cult...).

[ShadowKnight1224]

Thanks for the compliments on the fiction. It'll probably end up a good bit longer than I thought it would. It's just kind of run away with me. This splat is a lot of fun to work with. Also, the demon I chose was meant to be emblematic of consequences, to tie it in with the themes of the gameline. Does the imagery of the summoning work?

No problem, I thought it was pretty good. Honestly, just go for something as flavourful as possible. As an intro fiction, I feel it already does a great job at presenting the setting and conveying the core themes and mood, so if it's a bit longer than normal, it's more than fine. I noticed you went for a very consequence-y demon!

For the summoning ritual, I'd say that doing a super basic ritual like the ones my players did would grant you a +0 to the Occult rolls to invoke the demon, while an elaborate ritual that requires rare ingredients and careful preparation would give you anywhere from a +2 to a +5, which would be particularly good for people without dots in Occult (otherwise that -3 for untrained would really hurt).

So yeah, I very much like it. I liked the sloshing imagery as well, quite foreboding.

By the way, if you're looking for inspiration for Demonskins, I'd recommend looking at the Visages from Demon: the Return.

Never heard of that. TO THE GOOGLE.

[ajf115]

By the way, if you're looking for inspiration for Demonskins, I'd recommend looking at the Visages from Demon: the Return.

[ajf115]

Sounds fitting, definitely. Chain imagery is very common in demons.

I just got to read it (had a lot of things to reply to and I wanted to set aside some quiet time to take it in fully), and I absolutely love it. It's got really good occult imagery, really sympathetic characters and just overall paints such a perfect mood for the game. I'm definitely putting this in the intro section once you're finished. Honestly, it just draws you right in.

Thanks for the compliments on the fiction. It'll probably end up a good bit longer than I thought it would. It's just kind of run away with me. This splat is a lot of fun to work with. Also, the demon I chose was meant to be emblematic of consequences, to tie it in with the themes of the gameline. Does the imagery of the summoning work?