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  • Ever getting a Hero?

    Vampire the Requiem, Beast the Primordial, Promethean the Created, Slasher, Deviant the ???.... In each of these we get to play the "bad guy". But is there a game where we get to play the good guys? I'm looking at you Grim (of the self-named show), Slayer (Buffy), Immortal (Highlander), among other modern heroic examples.

    Am I missing something? Hunter doesn't seem to cut it, as they never seem to be in the same league as those they oppose; They are more the Scooby Doo, X-Files, or Supernatural types than those who can go toe-to-toe with the monsters they hunt. Mages are off doing their own thing and not trying to make the nights safer. Geists, Werewolves, Changelings, even Mummys also seem to be busy with their own problems, sometimes of their own making. Is there a game that would allow us to play lights in the Darkness?


    Yes, yes, yes... I know it is a horror game.

  • #2
    Race of your supernatural doesn't decide your "aligment". You can play heroic vampires, prometheans, mages, and werewolves.
    Werewolves probably are the most "heroic default".

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    • #3
      Why the fuck is this topic so popular in WoD recently, comparatively speaking? I know we're in the middle of a cultural shift and all, but sheesh guys.

      Anyways, your monstrosity is not a barrier to heroism. If anything, it's a very significant kickstarter. And despite your misconceptions, a lot of the groups out there are trying to do good. They may be limited by their perspective, the barriers of their conditions, and of course, the ever undefinable "What the fuck is good anyways" showing all sorts of problems as you reach for them, but they all try. Fuck, every Mage order gives some significant attention on what's best to do for humanity, in their way.

      At the core of these groups is just a problem inherent to...well, life, humanity particular. People try to do good, and some succeed in getting there, but it turns out it's a fucking gnarled and complex thing. One man's good is another man's evil, and that goes double when you're a monster.

      Besides, those examples of the Grimm, the Slayers, and the Immortals aren't 'heroic' types. Grimms throughout their history have been bloodthirsty psychopaths, the Slayers were not a noble bunch down the line, and the Immortals were the biggest collection of proofs that peoples is people.

      And two of those are fucking Hunters.

      Anyways, long and short of it-Everyone is trying to do good, in their own way. If it doesn't look like it, well. Welcome to the Chronicles of Darkness. It can be hard to see things as they are here.
      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 02-19-2016, 11:38 PM.


      Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Feminine pronouns, please.

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      • #4
        Use the Hero splat from Mirrors.


        Genius templates: Super Science Mini-Template for Demon: the Descent

        Oracle the Endbringers: Time-Manipulator Fan-Splat

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        • #5
          Hero is not what you are, it's what you do. Making "Hero" race would be like making a game solely focused on, let's say, Ordo Dracul. Games are ecosystems, not "occupations".

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          • #6
            Hah. The slayers' origin (girl ritually suffused by demon essence by a group of magicians so she can kill things for them) and modern setting version (one of several "potentials" identified magically by the occult society descended from those magicians gets the demon powers when the previous one dies, her life is controlled by her handlers who see her as a disposable weapon) are both perfectly valid Deviant character concepts.

            Buffy isn't a Hunter. She's a Deviant. She even turns on the Watchers and burns them to the ground.


            Dave Brookshaw

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            • #7
              I'm sort of bothered that we seem to be moving into a period where people want their stories handed to them from the corebook, rather than hacking and building the narrative that they want to see out of what's been given to them. I mean, there's certainly something to be said for an engaging and interesting default narrative, but are people really having such a difficult time stepping outside of that?

              (Also, it's depressing that you look at Promethean and judge them to be the bad guy, but you don't do this for Werewolf.)


              I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
              An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
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              • #8
                People aren't eternally collegee students or high schoolers who can spend 16 hours per week preparing for a 3 hours long game. Less work you have to do in order to prepare a game, more attractive it is to time-starved working audience. This is, among other things, why Adventure Paths and Premade Adventures are really popular right now. "Microwave and eat" adventures are also good and important for people who don't have XYZ years of experience at GMing, and want to try a new game, or even being a Storyteller in general. So yes, books handing you a good story to tell is a good thing in general, as long as they also support ability to create your own.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                  Hah. The slayers' origin (girl ritually suffused by demon essence by a group of magicians so she can kill things for them) and modern setting version (one of several "potentials" identified magically by the occult society descended from those magicians gets the demon powers when the previous one dies, her life is controlled by her handlers who see her as a disposable weapon) are both perfectly valid Deviant character concepts.

                  Buffy isn't a Hunter. She's a Deviant. She even turns on the Watchers and burns them to the ground.
                  And the interest keeps rising.


                  Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Feminine pronouns, please.

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                  • #10
                    Let's go beyond the fact that I agree perfectly with what Arc said. Let's go beyond the Scooby Doo comparison or the notion that you can't do something worth or that matters if the monsters you fight are stronger than you. I get it, hyperboles are fun. Let's go beyond the fact that what you are and what you do are two different things and that there are countless examples in media based around the concept of "heroic monster". Let's even go beyond the fact that this is your first post and you start with something that...welll, to put it in a way, puts the establishment in discussion. Not saying that you're doing this in bad faith, it's just that in the past it happened many times.

                    I want to look at this under a good light, which is probably is the way it deserves.

                    Ok, so right now you would like to do some badass heroism but you don't feel like doing that through the lens of a monstrous experience. Well, I'll start with an advice that might seem bad or rude but I really give you with the best intention: go play Scion. Really, I ran it for years and one of the premises there is that you can be a Hero in a modern setting and fight the forces of darkness as much as you want. In Scion you fighting toe-to-toe with the worst entities of the setting in order to save the world or at least make it a better place is pretty much the standard chronicle.

                    But hey, you like the CoD rules and setting, so shut up Cinder I don't want to play other games. Fair enough. That's the exact thing I'm doing right now. I've been running a Dark Heroes game set in the Islamic Golden Age for more than two years now. As Milo mentioned, the Dark Heroes rules give a huge boost to the strength of the character. I combined them with the Hunter Conspiracies and that's pretty much the characters we're playing at my table. It shifts a bit from Horror to Dark Fantasy, but that's part of the deal. Monster plague the city, dark conspiracies menace the Caliph's throne and Iblis just managed to eat the comatose remains of Ahriman and unleash an horde of evil genie across the land. The players are put against this, straight and simple.

                    It's going to be dark, because when you use dark instruments taken from a dark toolbox the results obviously veer towards a certain direction but, hey, that's it. Alter the lighting according to your table preferences and the Heroic game you're looking for will be there.

                    Edit: Hey Arc, is that Hikaru from Rayearth? I used to love that anime when I was a kid.
                    Last edited by Cinder; 02-03-2016, 06:12 AM.


                    Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                    I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

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                    • #11
                      Personally, I want to see a high-powered version of Hunter. Something that hits the same themes and tone but offers supernatural powers that are less "bag of tricks" and more along the lines of Mage or, preferably, Geist.


                      My homebrew hub.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                        Hah. The slayers' origin (girl ritually suffused by demon essence by a group of magicians so she can kill things for them) and modern setting version (one of several "potentials" identified magically by the occult society descended from those magicians gets the demon powers when the previous one dies, her life is controlled by her handlers who see her as a disposable weapon) are both perfectly valid Deviant character concepts.

                        Buffy isn't a Hunter. She's a Deviant. She even turns on the Watchers and burns them to the ground.

                        Did you just basically describe a Mage / Deviant crossover using Buffy (or at least Mage antagonists), all while Deviant is still well over a year or more away from release?

                        That's simply cruel. You bastard...

                        Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                        Personally, I want to see a high-powered version of Hunter. Something that hits the same themes and tone but offers supernatural powers that are less "bag of tricks" and more along the lines of Mage or, preferably, Geist.
                        What you're describing would substantially depart from Hunter which, for the most part, is about humans fighting a largely losing battle against forces they don't fully understand.

                        A Hunter or equivalent default splat that was on the same power tier by as A-listers like mages or even geists would just be creating yet another major supernatural template that happens to hunt other supernaturals. This was an idea essentially rejected for the nWOD/CofD from cWOD Hunter: the Reckoning. Any splat (or even Horror created using the new CofD system) can already do what you propose. Supernatural hunting supernatural is not really a new game, but rather an overdone and often problematic motivation for PC and NPC's.

                        It would also eliminate one of the primary themes of Hunter, “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

                        Originally posted by Feonorx View Post
                        Vampire the Requiem, Beast the Primordial, Promethean the Created, Slasher, Deviant the ???.... In each of these we get to play the "bad guy". But is there a game where we get to play the good guys? I'm looking at you Grim (of the self-named show), Slayer (Buffy), Immortal (Highlander), among other modern heroic examples.
                        I believe one of the problems with this type of question and discussion which arises frequently is it misapprehends the default nature of the CofD setting. It's not really a superhero setting or even basic urban fantasy. The CofD is about modern horror, gray morality, and being the monster (not necessarily the "bad guy," particularly without a binary and clearly defined good and evil).

                        Most importantly, any monster/PC can try to be heroic, but in the "real" world of the CofD, it's mostly impossible and only reinforces much of the horror theme.

                        For instance, if you want a hero vampire, he or she could be cop, priest or CEO turned against their will by a callous, insane or guilty mentor, and now thrust into a dark world they previously never knew existed, endeavor to obstruct some of the worst excesses of his kind against mortals, all while trying to maintain his ever diminishing humanity. (**cough** Forever Knight **cough**)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by branford View Post
                          What you're describing would substantially depart from Hunter which, for the most part, is about humans fighting a largely losing battle against forces they don't fully understand.

                          It would also eliminate one of the primary themes of Hunter, “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
                          I completely agree, which is why I consider such an idea to be worthwhile. Both offer their own unique playstyle and consideration without getting in the way of each other. There are subjects you an only explore in a Hunter game because the Hunters are far less powerful than the things they're fighting against, and there are subjects you can only explore in a higher-powered take because of the approximation in power.

                          If the higher-power version overlapped completely, it may as well be a setting hack, rather than a major splat on its own.

                          Originally posted by branford View Post
                          A Hunter or equivalent default splat that was on the same power tier by as A-listers like mages or even geists would just be creating yet another major supernatural template that happens to hunt other supernaturals. This was an idea essentially rejected for the nWOD/CofD from cWOD Hunter: the Reckoning. Any splat (or even Horror created using the new CofD system) can already do what you propose. Supernatural hunting supernatural is not really a new game, but rather an overdone and often problematic motivation for PC and NPC's.
                          There is already a gameline that hunts other supernaturals, it's called Hunter. While it was designed to be self-contained, as all other gamelines, it did support some crossover material in its various supplements, so that justification is simply false.

                          Furthermore, you assume that the core theme of Hunter is merely hunting other supernaturals, and that's just not the case. The core theme of Hunter is the Vigil, the idea of standing guard against the darkness. You can leave hunting to Hunters (and Werewolves), and instead take the themes of the Vigil and expand it to a major splat, one that deals with the same themes and ideas from a completely different perspective and power level.

                          I think there's plenty of potential in that.


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                          • #14
                            If you want Hunters that are "equal" to their prey, listen to the book's advice and instead of using Splat-pires, Splat-ges, and Splat-wolves, use the Hunter-pires, Hunter-ges, and Hunter-wolves that have their stuff adjusted to the Hunter powerlevel. Not everything is made stronger by upgrading it, sometimes you need to nerf other things.

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                            • #15
                              Original Poster looks for "Hero" splat hunting monsters? Why not use Heroes from Beast: the Primodrial and just switch sides on normal game? PCs are nobel Heroes, guarding dreams and humanity from Horrors living inside some people that think they are themselves monsters. Heck, BtP Heroes have their own powers written down in Beast corebook. If OP even want to expand monsters variety the BtP have him covered with crossover chapters.
                              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-03-2016, 10:26 AM.


                              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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