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  • I'm not saying that Altruism or Idealism don't exist in any of the official splats, but they're not what I could call core themes.
    Altruism or Idealism is actually one of the core things of Geist (though I can the arguement that the altruism is only an accidental theme), since it's themes are "Enjoy life and help people move on and deal with changes/" to the extent that the supernaturals are named after their focus on removing the burdens of other people, and it has the mood of joy and optimism and acknowledging of the past, with a lot of Dia del los Muertos.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    It's a lot more difficult to actually engage with the points being asked, to understand what people actually want.
    You realize that i have repeatedly said "I sincerely don't understand what you guys want that isn't already in the game". I am engaging in the discussion, but repeatedly asking for stuff that already exists or is too close to current stuff is going to get the same responses over and over. For a concept to be worth being made as a gameline of CofD, it needs more than just "hunter but not" and more than "We are good."


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    • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
      You realize that i have repeatedly said "I sincerely don't understand what you guys want that isn't already in the game". I am engaging in the discussion, but repeatedly asking for stuff that already exists or is too close to current stuff is going to get the same responses over and over. For a concept to be worth being made as a gameline of CofD, it needs more than just "hunter but not" and more than "We are good."
      The problem is that people have already addressed those points numerous times. You're making assumptions and refuse to move past them. You assume that people only want something because they have an unsatisfied need. This is not the case. There isn't an unsatisfied need or a problem that needs fixing.


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      • Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
        There isn't an unsatisfied need or a problem that needs fixing.
        Then why does this thread exist. If there is no problem or need, then why ask for a whole friggin gameline for something that there is no need for? You say "more options are good", but you can say that about everything and it doesn't deal with the fact this thread topic keeps coming up, or why such a gameline would benefit CofD. Why aren't there threads of "Ever getting a Undead gameline"? It's the same sort of thing. I'm not making assumptions, I'm asking questions, and not really getting answers beyond you saying "No you don't get it." which is why I'm asking questions in the first place. Your attitude is not helping, there is no reason to be rude in a discussion like this.


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        • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
          Your attitude is not helping, there is no reason to be rude in a discussion like this.
          My apologies if I came off rude, it was not my intention.

          Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
          You say "more options are good", but you can say that about everything
          Correct. This, right here, is the point. There doesn't need to be a reason or justification for more options. Mirrors was a book that didn't need to exist, and yet it's my favourite 1e blue book. Hell, it may be my favourite 1e book, period.

          Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
          it doesn't deal with the fact this thread topic keeps coming up
          It may keep coming up because it doesn't actually produce the results that people want. "Play this thing that already exists" is not the result people want. Clearly, people want more. They want something different.


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          • To be fair, people usually don't know that they like something new until it happens. Nobody thought to themselves "damn, I would love to have a car" before cars were a thing.
            Not that i think that Hero splat is needed, because again, Hero is what you do, and splats define what you are.

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            • Originally posted by branford View Post

              Any no one here or from WW is stopping you or anyone else from using the WW games any way you want. We all happily follow the Golden Rule.

              However, whether you like it or not, the CofD was not fundamentally designed or intended as a "heroic" in themes, settings or mechanics. The vast majority of the games' fans are apparently pleased with the current situation. Starkly realizing in these discussions that you might hold a minority view of what people want or expect from the games is not "derision," but rather ordinary and fairly mundane disagreement, and our opinions are as valid and legitimate as yours.

              Simply, any particular rpg or game world cannot be all things to all people, and attempts to do just that usually result in lackluster or plain lousy games. OPP and WW are not obligated to support what you (or I or anyone else) want with their creative vision, and the market will decide what stays and what goes. If they support what you or I like, that's great, if not, we all are capable of homebrewing or choosing one of the ample other games to suit our tastes and preferences.
              While I would agree that all opinions are valid, as a long time gamer I would also respectfully suggest that the the loudest, most frequent voices on forums are (generally speaking) not a representative sample of the "vast majority" of a game's fans, so to say that just because the idea is treated with derision/mundane disagreement says absolutely nothing about how a game line will go over in the marketplace. I'm hearing a lot of "we don't like it, so it must not be popular" and "we don't want to make it that way because shut up and respect our desire to make monsters" but neither of those are very convincing arguments.

              As for how it CofD is designed, I would respectfully disagree. The base setting in the nWoD core book and the God-Machine book are right out of X-Files and Fringe, among others, which are heroic in tone. There is nothing specifically anti-heroic in the mechanics. The theme varies from splat to splat, but (again) there is nothing inherently anti-heroic in the themes of the nWoD Core, the God-Machine, or even some of the splats. Mage, for example, may be a game of arrogance and hubris, but it is also a game of overcoming adversity and striving to reach that higher level. Can it be a game of horror and monsters? Yes, but that is not its core theme or setting.

              My viewpoint may be in the minority of forum members, and hell for all I know the broader gaming audience as well, but I believe that the darker it is the more we need the light. G.K Chesterson (and Neil Gaiman) said something along the lines "Fairy tales are true, not because they tell us dragons exist, but that they can be beaten" and I think that we need less focus on the monsters within us and more focus on how we can overcome monsters. Its all well and good to navel-gaze at the wickedness inherent in mankind, but where else can we experiment with how to overcome that wickedness other than the safety of a game about monsters? We need fiction and fairy tales because they are the only place left to us where the heroes actually win. History tells us who we were, the news tells us who we are, but heroes tell us who we could be. And there is no need to make it harder to play a hero by making them monsters first.

              All that being said, I think I have the answers to my original question and out of respect for all involved I think I will leave it at that.


              Yes, yes, yes... I know it is a horror game.

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              • Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
                Correct. This, right here, is the point. There doesn't need to be a reason or justification for more options. Mirrors was a book that didn't need to exist, and yet it's my favourite 1e blue book. Hell, it may be my favourite 1e book, period.
                Mirrors did have justification, the things in it weren't just options for the sake of options. It was options that added things to the game that changes it's dynamics, how characters look at the world. Each thing in mirrors had a purpose. I'm just trying to findout what purpose this could have, and what avenues could it go down to make it justified as a gameline. In my mind, "Being Good" isn't worthy of a gameline for the same reason "Being a mummy" isn't. To be specific just "Being a mummy" isn't enough, but "Your an immortal slave who surging with energy and power, but has had their identity torn away and if you try to regain agency you weaken and die... only to be turned back into a slave again in a hundred years." is worthy of a gameline. That's why I want to know how it'd be different over and over, what gives it a reason for people to want to play it. What gives it a reason for people to play it over playing geist or hunter or another gameline with good characters.

                It may keep coming up because it doesn't actually produce the results that people want. "Play this thing that already exists" is not the result people want. Clearly, people want more. They want something different.
                And I want to know how it could be different.


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                • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                  Mirrors did have justification, the things in it weren't just options for the sake of options. It was options that added things to the game that changes it's dynamics, how characters look at the world. Each thing in mirrors had a purpose. I'm just trying to findout what purpose this could have, and what avenues could it go down to make it justified as a gameline. In my mind, "Being Good" isn't worthy of a gameline for the same reason "Being a mummy" isn't. To be specific just "Being a mummy" isn't enough, but "Your an immortal slave who surging with energy and power, but has had their identity torn away and if you try to regain agency you weaken and die... only to be turned back into a slave again in a hundred years." is worthy of a gameline. That's why I want to know how it'd be different over and over, what gives it a reason for people to want to play it. What gives it a reason for people to play it over playing geist or hunter or another gameline with good characters.

                  And I want to know how it could be different.
                  The problem is that, if I were to spend a full hour carefully constructing you a pitch to demonstrate a perfectly valid idea that I could base a major splat on, it would likely be quoted by someone who typed "[Splat] already covers this" in a few seconds, and I would've wasted an hour of my time. Because yes, Mage probably covers pretty much everything. Hunter will likely cover whatever Mage can't, due to the sheer power differential.

                  However, that doesn't really mean that it can't exist. Deviant proves that you can take a Changeling-like pitch, change the power level, tone, mood and themes, and it's worthy of its own gameline, Same with Beast borrowing from and establishing parallels with other splats.

                  I don't really agree with the idea that "options for the sake of options" is even theoretically possible. That literally cannot exist, logically speaking. If you are creating an option, you are starting from something that already exists and modifying it, or trying to explore an unexplored niche. You must have a purpose to your modification/exploration, otherwise, how are you making the decisions you need to make in the first place? All options have an inherent purpose, otherwise they cannot logically exist.


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                  • The problem is that, if I were to spend a full hour carefully constructing you a pitch to demonstrate a perfectly valid idea that I could base a major splat on, it would likely be quoted by someone who typed "[Splat] already covers this" in a few seconds, and I would've wasted an hour of my time. Because yes, Mage probably covers pretty much everything. Hunter will likely cover whatever Mage can't, due to the sheer power differential.
                    I'm not sure on that, I mean. Demon is very unique in it's "themes pitch" were it goes with espionage. Geist deals with Living rather than clinging onto the past. While changeling is being traumatised and trying to find a safe place. Other games can do those concepts of course, but they don't cover those things as main themes.

                    However, that doesn't really mean that it can't exist. Deviant proves that you can take a Changeling-like pitch, change the power level, tone, mood and themes, and it's worthy of its own gameline, Same with Beast borrowing from and establishing parallels with other splats.
                    I agree completely, as long as it goes along different themes and tone then it gives itself enough reason to exist.

                    I don't really agree with the idea that "options for the sake of options" is even theoretically possible. That literally cannot exist, logically speaking. If you are creating an option, you are starting from something that already exists and modifying it, or trying to explore an unexplored niche. You must have a purpose to your modification/exploration, otherwise, how are you making the decisions you need to make in the first place? All options have an inherent purpose, otherwise they cannot logically exist.
                    That's why I was so confused because I wasn't seeing any purpose behind it, since all the purpose mentioned was either specifically covered already by other splats (not just in a vague sense but as in main themes) or no purpose at all...

                    I do think the biggest trouble with the concept is that it would have to answer "What is good" and... thats a hard question to answer since it's so subjective.
                    Last edited by milo v3; 02-04-2016, 03:10 AM.


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                    • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                      I'm not sure on that, I mean. Demon is very unique in it's "themes pitch" were it goes with espionage. Geist deals with Living rather than clinging onto the past. While changeling is being traumatised and trying to find a safe place. Other games can do those concepts of course, but they don't cover those things as main themes.
                      Which is exactly why it's actually viable to come up with a different splat. Princess accomplishes this by deliberately making the theme of its splat "trying to help humanity and make the world a better place", which none of the other lines cover in a central, core manner (I would argue that Hunter's core theme is less about the changes that the Hunter can do in the world and more about the personal journey of the Hunter that faces the darkness). I think there is value in taking similar themes and doing them again with a different setting, mood, tone and mechanics. Having an alternate take on Princess that doesn't follow the Magical Girl trappings and instead explores different concepts might be a worthwhile endeavour.

                      Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                      I agree completely, as long as it goes along different themes and tone then it gives itself enough reason to exist.
                      And I think it's possible.

                      Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                      That's why I was so confused because I wasn't seeing any purpose behind it, since all the purpose mentioned was either specifically covered already by other splats (not just in a vague sense but as in main themes) or no purpose at all...

                      I do think the biggest trouble with the concept is that it would have to answer "What is good" and... thats a hard question to answer since it's so subjective.
                      I think 2e supports this idea more than 1e did, with the substitutions to Virtue and Vice found in Vampire and Werewolf, and the complete redesign of the Morality subsystems. They let the storyteller and the players come up with what they think is appropriate for the game. You don't need to define good, merely leave things open for different groups with different ideas of good to all be able to play the game.


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                      • Originally posted by Feonorx View Post

                        Sorry, I accidentally double-posted. I tried to correct it, but seem to have failed. Again, didn't mean to make you repeat yourself



                        As the Spanish swordsman said, "You keep saying that - I do not think it means what you think it means." I have already cited examples from the product line that are not monsters. Several people have said that certain splats (Mage, Promethean, Geist, arguably Werewolf and/or Changling) are not monsters per se. It is even possible to play individual members of the other splats as heroes, contrary to their basic nature. The original nWoD rulebook was not about playing monsters, nor is the God-Machine Chronicle. There is nothing inherent in the CroW that requires one to be monsters and I have yet to see anything in CroW that would preclude creating modern heroes. So, respectfully, I'm afraid what I see does not match what you are saying.
                        1) Okay, gotcha.

                        2) I think there's a communication barrier here, yes. Namely by what we mean by monsters, heroes, the larger contexts of the series on the whole in its' relation to it's history and the current direction of the series, and, oh, yeah, the matter of a dialogue between an audience member and a stage hand.

                        But no, I think it means what I think it means. I have, after all, been saying it consistently this entire time. I have been saying this consistently for years.
                        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 02-04-2016, 03:39 AM.


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                        • Sure, you could have something like Angel: The Guardian game, where characters are weird existences that attach themselves to mortals in order to sustain themselves and their sense of identity. Basically, a twist on the idea of "protect the territory", but with "the herd" being your main concern. Sustain yourself on their happy emotions, successes, and be at great disadvantage or outright harm when they are hurt, fail, or die. Beings that need to improve your everyday life in order to survive. Is that a "doing good" enough for central theme?
                          Still, in order for the game to not be shallow, you still need to leave space for Darkness. Like, I dunno...Angelic mission is benign in nature, but Angels can and often twist it because they are fallible; yeah, humans you are protecting are important, but other people? Not at all. Boss of your guy is ruining his mood? FUCK UP THAT GUY. Other Angel is manipulating resources in the area so his humans are improving, but it leaves you starved for (fuel thingy)? KICK HIS TEETH IN. Or if you can't target him directly, fuck up his herd.
                          Game like this *could be* a possible game in CoD. But you can't focus on the bright side only. You need to stay in the gray area.

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                          • Originally posted by WHW View Post
                            Sure, you could have something like Angel: The Guardian game, where characters are weird existences that attach themselves to mortals in order to sustain themselves and their sense of identity. Basically, a twist on the idea of "protect the territory", but with "the herd" being your main concern. Sustain yourself on their happy emotions, successes, and be at great disadvantage or outright harm when they are hurt, fail, or die. Beings that need to improve your everyday life in order to survive. Is that a "doing good" enough for central theme?
                            Still, in order for the game to not be shallow, you still need to leave space for Darkness. Like, I dunno...Angelic mission is benign in nature, but Angels can and often twist it because they are fallible; yeah, humans you are protecting are important, but other people? Not at all. Boss of your guy is ruining his mood? FUCK UP THAT GUY. Other Angel is manipulating resources in the area so his humans are improving, but it leaves you starved for (fuel thingy)? KICK HIS TEETH IN. Or if you can't target him directly, fuck up his herd.
                            Game like this *could be* a possible game in CoD. But you can't focus on the bright side only. You need to stay in the gray area.
                            It's funny, because I'm actually playing with an idea like that, but from the opposite end. Imagine those as the antagonists.
                            Last edited by ReshyShira; 02-04-2016, 04:24 AM.

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                            • Personally, my own take on Angels would be something similar to the TV show "Wonderfalls." You're an angel that knew nothing but mindless obedience to some inscrutable higher power (the God-Machine, The Messengers, the Holy Light, Allah, whatever you want to run in your own game). However, unlike Demon: The Descent, you didn't gain free will on your own. You were granted free will by the divine design of the [Higher Power]. And unlike Demon, you aren't running from the [Higher Power], or involved in an espionage game. You are simply allowed to do whatever you want. Of course, you have... urges. Angelic urges. Depending on what type of angel you are, you find comfort doing certain things. Smiting the wicked, enlightening mortals, guiding them like chess pieces, protecting them, and so on. Only this time, you don't have a purpose. You have to come up with your own.

                              Unfortunately, that's not all. Not every day, but somewhat frequently, you receive certain... omens. Perhaps it's a talking object. Perhaps it's a strange symbol in a wall that only you can see. Perhaps your neighbour's eyes suddenly roll back and she speaks in tongues, and the message you decipher is cryptic and ominous. What do you do about the messages, which later make sense in retrospect and hint at some sort of grander plan?

                              The main difference between this take of Angel and Demon: The Descent is that free will in Demon (to my knowledge, haven't actually read the book) is taken as a given. You got it, now you have to protect it at all costs. However, in Angel, your free will comes into question. Are you really a freed Angel, or are you the next stage in the [Higher Power]'s plans? Are your actions your own, or are you being manipulated into doing exactly what someone else wants? And what if the puppeteer pulling your strings isn't your old [Higher Power], but another power who "poached" you from it? And even worse: what if your [Higher Power] never existed at all, your memories of obedience are false, and you're just a supernatural oddity, trying to convince yourself that there's purpose and meaning in what you do, pretending that the insane things you see and hear make sense?

                              I think that this idea of Angel has plenty of room for heroism and doing good, but doesn't shy away from personal/existencial horror and other themes appropriate to the Chronicles of Darkness.


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                              • I think I missed something like, what, seven pages? So I'm not going to go back to my previous thoughts and those who answered them, It would be like trying to swim upstream. Glad that I was helpful though, Feonorx.

                                I'm just going to resume my personal view about the idealism thing, because that where I feel the discussion has shifted and also because Neil Gaiman is out of the hat and I owe that man big time.

                                "'Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.'"

                                Yes, I kinda agree with this and to be honest, that's the spirit I run my games with. You can beat a dragon. Seriously, kill that scaly bastard and make the world a better place for you and those you care about. But that dragon is going to burn your village, eat your horse and poison the glade with the blood spilled from its fatal wound.

                                It's going to be difficult. It's gonna hurt. And you'll have to pay a heavy price. You're gonna be battered and bloodied when you're done. You might still feel the wounds years from now. And not all those you saved might appreciate the effort; they might even take some torches and pitchforks and come after you.

                                Does that mean that making the world better as whole would look like an utopia more often than not? Yes

                                Does that mean that every action taken in this sense is going to meet a fundamental resistance as if reality itself recoils at the thought? Yes

                                Does any of this take something from the fact that you've just beaten a goddamn dragon? Not in the very slightest


                                I like desperate efforts. I like the feel a narrative gives me when you beat impossible odds. And the more the characters suffer for it, the more I feel like they've earned their prize. I can give you examples of some of my favorite stuff. Dark Souls, Hellboy, Sandman, Life is Strange, Berserk, Black Sails. Man, those work put their main characters through a crucible and the final result is a bittersweet ending at best. But that's something that makes me appreciate it even more. Now I'm not saying that's all you need in life, look at my avatar, that's freakin' Adventure Time and I love it (even though I could go on a pages.long discussion about the tragedy of the Ice King, but let's avoid that). It's just that the Chronicles of Darkness naturally lend themselves to those kind of stories. Experiencing these stories through the eyes of a monster (human or not), paying heavy prices to follow your ideals and find your place in the world, that's what we're talking about. Heroism and idealism born out monstrosity, born despite monstrosity, is something I dig. A lot.

                                The tools to build what some of you are asking for are already there and are well supported. You might not feel like that's the case but I guess that's the point where we agree to disagree.
                                Last edited by Cinder; 02-04-2016, 05:10 AM.


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