Ever getting a Hero?

[ArcaneArts]

Holy shit Arc, It's been a long, long time since I've seen you pull a Satchel. You are particularly passionate about this topic XD

Compared to the 5600 essay in Meet the Huntsmen, this is me mildly inflamed.

[PenDragon]

Indeed. It is my understanding that the the OP and his group are insisting on an "official" heroic splat.

...I can see now how this thread got to 15 Pages.

[ElvesofZion]

How about exploring our own conventional virtues, when they're right and where they're wrong. Heck, when is altruism wrong?

That's just it, even if you, I and everyone else on these forums considers altruism to be a good thing, without objective morality, it isn't inherently good, only subjectively good to us.

For example, the core tenets of the Church of Satan reject altruism as being good, they believe that only deserving people should be given help and that self interest is the enlightened way.

You simply cannot say anything is always good without establshing Objective Morality.

[ArcaneArts]

Think that the question is more "why hasn't OPP done something similar yet?" also the OP was probably unaware of it when originally posting, and he may not like the magic girl themes.

Nutshell, as has been stated several times: Because it goes against the design philosophy we're following for the Chronicles of Darkness. We're talking series bible stuff here.

We have our sandbox, and we will play in it.

[ShadowKnight1224]

If that's what you want, I think "I have an idea for a heroic fan splat, who would find this interesting or want to help contribute?" would lead to a lot more productive discussion and a lot less pointless bickering than "Are we ever going to get a heroic splat?" The former invites people to share constructive ideas and feedback, while the latter invites defenses of why heroism is possible with the splats we already have and arguments over what heroism actually means and if it should even be defined.

I actually completely agree with this, and was hoping this thread and the previous one would eventually become that. It's unfortunate it didn't turn out that way.

Sorry. Believe it or not, that wasn't a derisive "is that it?" I'm trying to get to the bottom of what it is people want out of the splat. Because vampire can very well be "Suck blood" as the core concept that the rest of the game is based around, at least on a superficial level.

My question is more about what gives the characters of "Good: the Doing" the push to do good? I would hope not some sort of entity.

Well, one of the ideas I thought was interesting to explore in my hypothetical take on the Angel fansplat was the idea that there was no [Higher Power], that the Angels had unconsciously fabricated years and years of false memories, and that they were actually tulpas or tulpa-like creatures created by humanity's latent power and belief.

For example, an Angel might remember saving a woman's life, and when he goes to investigate her, he discovers that she wrote a mildly popular book about being saved by an angel. As he continues to fact-check his memories, the angel realises that in all cases, the people he interacted with are all firmly convinced that they witnessed an angel, which eventually causes him to doubt his own "realness." Is he an actual angel, or belief made flesh? It would tie in very well with the existential horror of not being sure whether you have free will or not, and whether the actions you're taking based on the mysterious omens you receive are actually "fighting" Fate or just doing what you were supposed to do all along.

For a less existential-type of horror, you could do a Paladin fansplat that's more about tapping into the notions of good in the Temenos and deriving power from them. The personal horror in that game would come from the consequences of your actions. Much like Beast characters are compelled to satisfy their Hungers, Paladins would be compelled by the powers they are endowed with, to do good (whatever the player defines as good during character creation), but the decisions they have to make are difficult and the outcomes are gray and uncertain. One key feature of Paladin would be a complete inability to foresee the future or divine causality, not even if a Mage casts a spell on their behalf. The entire point of a Paladin would be to make difficult choices and hope for the best, and then trying to fix whatever you broke in the process.

The apparent "value judgment" appears to have been made by the people who created the nWOD/CofD and its accompanying game lines, not me.

Strikes me as an Appeal To Authority fallacy.

[ReshyShira]

That's just it, even if you, I and everyone else on these forums considers altruism to be a good thing, without objective morality, it isn't inherently good, only subjectively good to us.

That's the point?

[nofather]

Indeed. It is my understanding that the the OP and his group are insisting on an "official" heroic splat.

I believe they meant OPP as in Onyx Path Publishing. Since there's two threads and someone made Princess: the Hopeful, the idea of a Paladin game of Righteousness would be a sure thing.

Here is the aforementioned Paladin: the Redemption fan splat.

[Charlaquin]

I actually completely agree with this, and was hoping this thread and the previous one would eventually become that. It's unfortunate it didn't turn out that way.

The problem is, this thread and the other both started from the "why don't we have a heroic splat?" premise instead of the "let's make a heroic splat!" premise. The well was poisoned before it was dug. If you want to gauge interest in and support for a potential fan splat, start a new thread that starts off on a better foot; this one is a lost cause.

[ReshyShira]

Well, one of the ideas I thought was interesting to explore in my hypothetical take on the Angel fansplat was the idea that there was no [Higher Power], that the Angels had unconsciously fabricated years and years of false memories, and that they were actually tulpas or tulpa-like creatures created by humanity's latent power and belief.

For example, an Angel might remember saving a woman's life, and when he goes to investigate her, he discovers that she wrote a mildly popular book about being saved by an angel. As he continues to fact-check his memories, the angel realises that in all cases, the people he interacted with are all firmly convinced that they witnessed an angel, which eventually causes him to doubt his own "realness." Is he an actual angel, or belief made flesh? It would tie in very well with the existential horror of not being sure whether you have free will or not, and whether the actions you're taking based on the mysterious omens you receive are actually "fighting" Fate or just doing what you were supposed to do all along.

For a less existential-type of horror, you could do a Paladin fansplat that's more about tapping into the notions of good in the Temenos and deriving power from them. The personal horror in that game would come from the consequences of your actions. Much like Beast characters are compelled to satisfy their Hungers, Paladins would be compelled by the powers they are endowed with, to do good (whatever the player defines as good during character creation), but the decisions they have to make are difficult and the outcomes are gray and uncertain. One key feature of Paladin would be a complete inability to foresee the future or divine causality, not even if a Mage casts a spell on their behalf. The entire point of a Paladin would be to make difficult choices and hope for the best, and then trying to fix whatever you broke in the process.

If we can define hungers, I'm fairly certain the inverse should also be possible. I do like the whole Tupla thing, that's something I'm actually interested in exploring.

[branford]

Strikes me as an Appeal To Authority fallacy.

If the discussion is why there isn't and will likely never be a major splat, no less entire game line, about purportedly clearly heroic individuals doing heroic things in the CofD, the very subject of the OP, than the design philosophy and setting and thematic choices of OPP (i.e., the "authority") is not only relevant, but essential and dispositive. My comments and points, such as quoting the new CofD corebook or the comparisons of H:tR to H:tV all concern the OP's particular issue.

As I've repeatedly indicated, you and anyone else can and should do whatever you want with your own games, it doesn't affect me at all. While I might not agree with your perspective, and admittedly prefer the darker and more ambiguous default CofD setting (as ArcaneArts has thoroughly described from her perspective as a freelanceer), my opinion is totally, absolutely irrelevant to your games.

If this was simply a thread about new ideas for fansplats and homebrews, I probably wouldn't have commented at all. I see no reason to rain on anyone's parade if they're having fun. Nevertheless, I do have fairly strong opinions on whether an "official" "heroic" gameline would be viable and fit consistently into the CofD, and will continue to offer my thoughts on the topic.

In fact, given the sometimes contentious nature of the subject, a new thread about appropriate homebrewing or aspirations might be far more productive, particularly if the OP could be more flexible about his expectations.

[Satchel]

(as ArcaneArts has thoroughly described from her perspective as a freelanceer)

Arc's a guy.

[branford]

Arc's a guy.

Oops. My error, but obviously no insult was intended.

[ArcaneArts]

Eh, don't worry about it. I'm one of those people who'd take Luna's Embrace and change genders based on my mood for the day if I could.

Though, if you do want to be technically accurate, my name in the signature is of help.

[branford]

Though, if you do want to be technically accurate, my name in the signature is of help.

Indeed it is. I thought I recalled someone referring to you as she in a post many moons ago, and honestly just never gave much thought to the matter.

Besides, how could you possibly be even a little annoyed when the original reference was a compliment.

[ReshyShira]

Eh, don't worry about it. I'm one of those people who'd take Luna's Embrace and change genders based on my mood for the day if I could.

Is that a W:tF thing?