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  • ShadowKnight1224
    started a topic Heroic Fansplat Community Collab

    Heroic Fansplat Community Collab

    As suggested in threads like this one and this one, there is a desire for a fan splat that deals with matters such as heroism and altruism in a way that Princess: the Hopeful doesn't. Here are some key points that I've rescued from the threads:

    1) The splat must be a major supernatural template.
    2) It must not attempt to define good or virtue, but instead give the players and Storytellers the tools they need to define it themselves, and then support diverse playstyles and notions with both mechanics and fluff.
    3) It must allow for the mystery and ambiguousness that exists in the Chronicles of Darkness to continue existing.
    4) It must provide an adequate amount of personal horror to the character. Other forms of horror are welcome if they are appropriate to the setting and themes of the splat.
    5) It must, whenever possible, avoid treading the core themes of other gamelines.

    To kickstart the conversation, I'll throw in a post I made that I think is relevant:

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Something crucial is that the one thing that solves both sides of the issue is a splat that specifically tasks the character with doing good, but leaves it up to them to determine what is good.

    That is the key difference between this theoretical splat and all others. All other splats have other concerns first. Can they do good? Absolutely. However, doing good is not actually the main, core theme of the any of the current splats. Even Hunter is more about "what are you going to do about the supernatural?" over "what do you think is good?" (obligatory disclaimer: Hunter is great, I love Hunter, I don't want it to change, etc.). Geist is "what are you going to do with your second chance?", Changeling is "how are you going to find your way back home?", and so on. While all those games have absolutely every potential for heroism and altruism, there isn't a major splat where such a thing is the core foundation upon which everything else is built. There isn't a splat that asks you to craft your own version of good and then asks you to try and uphold it, throwing you challenges and difficult choices, bittersweet-gray outcomes, and all that interesting stuff.
    And here are some ideas to get the thread started:

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Personally, my own take on Angels would be something similar to the TV show "Wonderfalls." You're an angel that knew nothing but mindless obedience to some inscrutable higher power (the God-Machine, The Messengers, the Holy Light, Allah, whatever you want to run in your own game). However, unlike Demon: The Descent, you didn't gain free will on your own. You were granted free will by the divine design of the [Higher Power]. And unlike Demon, you aren't running from the [Higher Power], or involved in an espionage game. You are simply allowed to do whatever you want. Of course, you have... urges. Angelic urges. Depending on what type of angel you are, you find comfort doing certain things. Smiting the wicked, enlightening mortals, guiding them like chess pieces, protecting them, and so on. Only this time, you don't have a purpose. You have to come up with your own.

    Unfortunately, that's not all. Not every day, but somewhat frequently, you receive certain... omens. Perhaps it's a talking object. Perhaps it's a strange symbol in a wall that only you can see. Perhaps your neighbour's eyes suddenly roll back and she speaks in tongues, and the message you decipher is cryptic and ominous. What do you do about the messages, which later make sense in retrospect and hint at some sort of grander plan?

    The main difference between this take of Angel and Demon: The Descent is that free will in Demon (to my knowledge, haven't actually read the book) is taken as a given. You got it, now you have to protect it at all costs. However, in Angel, your free will comes into question. Are you really a freed Angel, or are you the next stage in the [Higher Power]'s plans? Are your actions your own, or are you being manipulated into doing exactly what someone else wants? And what if the puppeteer pulling your strings isn't your old [Higher Power], but another power who "poached" you from it? And even worse: what if your [Higher Power] never existed at all, your memories of obedience are false, and you're just a supernatural oddity, trying to convince yourself that there's purpose and meaning in what you do, pretending that the insane things you see and hear make sense?

    I think that this idea of Angel has plenty of room for heroism and doing good, but doesn't shy away from personal/existencial horror and other themes appropriate to the Chronicles of Darkness.
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    One of the ideas I thought was interesting to explore in my hypothetical take on the Angel fansplat was the idea that there was no [Higher Power], that the Angels had unconsciously fabricated years and years of false memories, and that they were actually tulpas or tulpa-like creatures created by humanity's latent power and belief.

    For example, an Angel might remember saving a woman's life, and when he goes to investigate her, he discovers that she wrote a mildly popular book about being saved by an angel. As he continues to fact-check his memories, the angel realises that in all cases, the people he interacted with are all firmly convinced that they witnessed an angel, which eventually causes him to doubt his own "realness." Is he an actual angel, or belief made flesh? It would tie in very well with the existential horror of not being sure whether you have free will or not, and whether the actions you're taking based on the mysterious omens you receive are actually "fighting" Fate or just doing what you were supposed to do all along.

    For a less existential-type of horror, you could do a Paladin fansplat that's more about tapping into the notions of good in the Temenos and deriving power from them. The personal horror in that game would come from the consequences of your actions. Much like Beast characters are compelled to satisfy their Hungers, Paladins would be compelled by the powers they are endowed with, to do good (whatever the player defines as good during character creation), but the decisions they have to make are difficult and the outcomes are gray and uncertain. One key feature of Paladin would be a complete inability to foresee the future or divine causality, not even if a Mage casts a spell on their behalf. The entire point of a Paladin would be to make difficult choices and hope for the best, and then trying to fix whatever you broke in the process.
    One last thing: I would highly appreciate it if people who thought that these ideas do not belong in the CofD, or can be already done with another splat, would abstain from bogging down the conversation with such arguments. We've already had them in other threads. Please, try to keep the discussion constructive and productive. Thanks!

  • ShadowKnight1224
    replied
    Originally posted by RickmanUK View Post
    I'm Unemployed, Unemployable but Perfectly Fit for Work. (To Elobarate One Group/Department says i'm Unfit for Work, Another says i'm fit because i can Walk.) So.. Stuck in a Catch 22 Situation, leaving me with Time (Hence the Rapid fire of me putting stuff up sometimes, since I'm just sat at a keyboard reading/listening/watching stuff) Ideally i want a Job that let's me work from Home on a Computer since i can do 8-9 Hours on one straight out without issue... But.. Most employers don't want an employee at home working.

    As you can guess this doesn't help my Mood when I'm being told I've "Got to do This" (Substitute This for much paperwork and jobseeking in an enviroment of no Jobs nearby in the field I can do). So i tend to get into a Low mood fairly easily.
    Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that.

    I honestly wish there was something I could do to help you out, but I'm not even in the same country, and I'm sure you've already considered/heard anything I could say about your situation. I really hope things get better at some point.

    Leave a comment:


  • RickmanUK
    replied
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post

    Don't worry, right now I'm covering for a coworker on maternity leave, so I have about 3-4 times my normal workload. And since I want to wrap up my other homebrew, this might have to take a back seat for a while. Apologies!



    Yeah, I can't help but agree. My free time is rather limited, and work is both hectic and exhausting right now. But it should be a temporary thing. I should hopefully be back to normal once my boss finds another replacement.
    I'm Unemployed, Unemployable but Perfectly Fit for Work. (To Elobarate One Group/Department says i'm Unfit for Work, Another says i'm fit because i can Walk.) So.. Stuck in a Catch 22 Situation, leaving me with Time (Hence the Rapid fire of me putting stuff up sometimes, since I'm just sat at a keyboard reading/listening/watching stuff) Ideally i want a Job that let's me work from Home on a Computer since i can do 8-9 Hours on one straight out without issue... But.. Most employers don't want an employee at home working.

    As you can guess this doesn't help my Mood when I'm being told I've "Got to do This" (Substitute This for much paperwork and jobseeking in an enviroment of no Jobs nearby in the field I can do). So i tend to get into a Low mood fairly easily.

    Leave a comment:


  • ShadowKnight1224
    replied
    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see. Ack, sorry for my lack of posting, I've been more into Siren as of late and college is threatening to burn me out. OTL
    Don't worry, right now I'm covering for a coworker on maternity leave, so I have about 3-4 times my normal workload. And since I want to wrap up my other homebrew, this might have to take a back seat for a while. Apologies!

    Originally posted by RickmanUK View Post
    Wouldn't Worry to much, Since it seems to be just the three of us progress might not be to quick.

    Plus i think we all are dealing with RL issues.
    Yeah, I can't help but agree. My free time is rather limited, and work is both hectic and exhausting right now. But it should be a temporary thing. I should hopefully be back to normal once my boss finds another replacement.

    Leave a comment:


  • RickmanUK
    replied
    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post

    I see. Ack, sorry for my lack of posting, I've been more into Siren as of late and college is threatening to burn me out. OTL
    Wouldn't Worry to much, Since it seems to be just the three of us progress might not be to quick.

    Plus i think we all are dealing with RL issues.

    Leave a comment:


  • SaulottheGentle
    replied
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    That works, for sure!
    Hmmm. I'd like something that hews a little closer to the weaving metaphor, if possible. Perhaps Threader and Designer? Of course, this means that, sequentially, the Threader comes after the Spinner.
    I see. Ack, sorry for my lack of posting, I've been more into Siren as of late and college is threatening to burn me out. OTL

    Leave a comment:


  • RickmanUK
    replied
    Posted a bit in the beginning of Chapter 2 as a Introduction to the 2 primary forces that the Paragons deal with, Fate and Destiny.

    Leave a comment:


  • ShadowKnight1224
    replied
    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    Ah, alright. Sorry, I had abit of a misunderstanding, I thought the Fateless section's Theme and Mood were replacing the Theme and Mood for the gameline (I couldn't find the normal Theme and Mood anywhere for Paragons) which is why I kinda asked "I thought they were supposed to be heroes" to make sure I wasn't getting the wrong idea.
    Ah, that's weird. I'll have to check the gdoc when I get back home and see if there was a misalignment somewhere.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    There are ways where Destiny Weavers could still act good enough. For example, stating that attempts at doing something bad will never come to pass, that two lovers will be together forever, things like that.
    I think that's an interesting hook to explore, blurring the line between good and bad when it comes to things like "soulmates whether you both like it or not" and "you will never experience hardship, so you will never learn and grow" but also things like "you are doomed to die, but it will make your sibling into a Chosen" or "you are doomed to suffer, but it will make you stronger." I can see Destiny as being a very gray force, which is what I was thinking for the Children of Morus as "antagonists," so it fits rather well.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see. And how about Dark Omens for Sovereigns point out to dangers against their rule or something?
    Well, the problem is that this means there's an entity looking out for them. Neither Fate nor Destiny is going to want to look out for slackers, so either someone else took over the channel, or the Sovereigns themselves developed precognitive capabilities to replace the Dark Omens.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    It's fitting. If I may suggest, the one inspiration I brought up earlier, Fate/Stay Night, how their Servant classes are divided could be fitting for the ideas of the Z-Splat. "I am the Berserker. Though cursed with madness, within it I find strength. I will be the first to enter battle and the very last to leave."

    Now that I think of it, the way Flails are remind me of Noble Phantasms and Aptitudes make me think of how Skills were in Fate. Would it be fine if we used it for Inspiration on at least Flails, maybe Mantles and Aptitudes? Just mechanics (and Lore, since all Servants are Heroic Spirits) wise, the story prolly isn't the best to derive from.
    That works, for sure!

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    It's prolly best. How about "Matchmakers" for the ones that deal with relationships and the one that deal with the threads as a whole, they're called the Conquerers or something?
    Hmmm. I'd like something that hews a little closer to the weaving metaphor, if possible. Perhaps Threader and Designer? Of course, this means that, sequentially, the Threader comes after the Spinner.

    Originally posted by RickmanUK View Post
    Three things to bring up...

    One: Sorry for not being involved at the moment, Dealing with... Well Depression. So Trying everything else to distract me abit....
    No problem! Hope you get better soon!

    Originally posted by RickmanUK View Post
    Two: Found this....
    In times of happiness, nobody realizes
    That the one who quietly turns the wheel is destiny (lit. The Sixth Goddess)
    In times of unhappiness, it’s too late to realize
    That the one who sinks the world into an eroding hell is also destiny (lit. The Sixth Goddess)


    From a Group called Sound Horizon.... Thats from one of their albums (Seisen no Iberia) and they also have an entire other album called and Based on Moira the Goddess of Fate... thought it'd be interesting Fodder for Research/Ideas.
    That's for sure quite interesting. Thanks for the rec!

    Originally posted by RickmanUK View Post
    Three: Tokyo Babylon.... the First Episode Villian sounds like a Sovereign. In Short he's a Guy who's "Lucky" to the point that he can throw himself off of a Building with someone else and Survive by virtue of "Luck" it's pointed out in the Show that he's not "lucky" but destined to be that lucky... Once the guy figures it out for himself.. well he starts arranging "Accidents" that kill off his rivals... While he is there and involved in the Accident as a victim.
    Translated as a Sovereign... He's manipulating Fate so that he can be in charge of the company his Dad owns... making sure everyone knows he's got Rivals and that they are unlucky.. making him more Friends then enemies.. They don't want to be his enemy.
    That's actually a brilliant idea for a Sovereign antagonist. It fits the idea of the self-centered, exploitative Sovereign quite well. Thank you for the contribution!

    Leave a comment:


  • RickmanUK
    replied
    Three things to bring up...

    One: Sorry for not being involved at the moment, Dealing with... Well Depression. So Trying everything else to distract me abit....

    Two: Found this....
    In times of happiness, nobody realizes
    That the one who quietly turns the wheel is destiny (lit. The Sixth Goddess)
    In times of unhappiness, it’s too late to realize
    That the one who sinks the world into an eroding hell is also destiny (lit. The Sixth Goddess)


    From a Group called Sound Horizon.... Thats from one of their albums (Seisen no Iberia) and they also have an entire other album called and Based on Moira the Goddess of Fate... thought it'd be interesting Fodder for Research/Ideas.

    Three: Tokyo Babylon.... the First Episode Villian sounds like a Sovereign. In Short he's a Guy who's "Lucky" to the point that he can throw himself off of a Building with someone else and Survive by virtue of "Luck" it's pointed out in the Show that he's not "lucky" but destined to be that lucky... Once the guy figures it out for himself.. well he starts arranging "Accidents" that kill off his rivals... While he is there and involved in the Accident as a victim.
    Translated as a Sovereign... He's manipulating Fate so that he can be in charge of the company his Dad owns... making sure everyone knows he's got Rivals and that they are unlucky.. making him more Friends then enemies.. They don't want to be his enemy.
    Last edited by RickmanUK; 04-05-2016, 10:41 AM. Reason: Wrong Band name.. Edited in the right one.

    Leave a comment:


  • SaulottheGentle
    replied
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Yeah, they're more like fan fiction writers, since the original tales came from humanity itself. They then wove it into reality, creating actual monsters and heroes and supporting cast to further inspire more stories. Sorta like proto-True-Fae, but the opposite. Instead of lacking creativity and focusing on control, they lacked control and focused on creativity. This lack of control is why the Sovereigns exist. The Weavers can't influence the world by themselves, they can only empower and communicate (poorly).
    Indeed.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Well, the idea was that they were both, yes. Originally, they were relegated to supporting cast, but once the Loom got torn apart, they were forced to step up to the Protagonist role and start doing some heroism of their own. So nowadays they're flexible enough to do either or both at once That's also another difference between Paragons and Princesses. While a Princess may waver in her embrace of what she is and what is expected of her, she's still a centerstage role, she has the Light inside of her. The Paragon is the reluctant hero, the side character that has to step in, which is why Confidence is so important for them. Paragons live in the uncertainty of trying to do the right thing with fractured, unreliable information.
    Ah, alright. Sorry, I had abit of a misunderstanding, I thought the Fateless section's Theme and Mood were replacing the Theme and Mood for the gameline (I couldn't find the normal Theme and Mood anywhere for Paragons) which is why I kinda asked "I thought they were supposed to be heroes" to make sure I wasn't getting the wrong idea.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Well, the Destiny Weavers are probably just like the Exarchs, but yes, the other Weavers are definitely the polar opposite.
    There are ways where Destiny Weavers could still act good enough. For example, stating that attempts at doing something bad will never come to pass, that two lovers will be together forever, things like that.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    That's what I meant to say, yes, sorry for the confusion. Dark Omens don't really do anything for you if you follow them, other than guide you straight to the Plot Du Jour. Ignoring them is where they start giving you a mechanical hindrance. As for the hindrance itself, I was considering them giving you a Condition that grows steadily worse the more time passes, such as starting with Shaken if you ignore them for a full day, and increasing up to Madness after a week (we should probably pick a couple of filler Conditions for between those two). Obviously, these Conditions would not give you any Beats.

    That's an excellent idea for the Sovereigns. Since Dark Omens are a Template Feature, we could simply replace them. Sovereigns, instead of having the Dark Omens, have something else entirely.
    I see. And how about Dark Omens for Sovereigns point out to dangers against their rule or something?

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Yeah, that works. Sovereigns having a culture of mingling with mortals and just exploiting everything for their own whims is an interesting thing. We could also make them more "realistic" and instead of giving them supervillain plots or the like, we could simply make them extremely selfish and self-centered hedonists who exist only to enjoy life to the fullest. Of course, that still leaves room for atrocities for them to do. And since we're emphasising how individualistic Sovereigns are, Storytellers still have room to create one that wants to pull off some bigger scheme if that's what they want to do with them.
    Indeed. :3

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Oh that's super interesting! Thanks for typing that up, I hadn't noticed the parallels before. I'd say the Abyssals sound like a good fit for the Children of Morus, and the rest of the Exalted sound like different roles the Paragons could take as individuals. Perhaps we could use them as inspiration for the Z-Splat? Like a sort of "beyond being a Spinner Fury, I take the role of the Watcher. I am stronger when I watch over people and act according to what I've seen." Or "I take the role of the Hero, I am strongest when I take the spotlight and do what no-one else can do."
    It's fitting. If I may suggest, the one inspiration I brought up earlier, Fate/Stay Night, how their Servant classes are divided could be fitting for the ideas of the Z-Splat. "I am the Berserker. Though cursed with madness, within it I find strength. I will be the first to enter battle and the very last to leave."

    Now that I think of it, the way Flails are remind me of Noble Phantasms and Aptitudes make me think of how Skills were in Fate. Would it be fine if we used it for Inspiration on at least Flails, maybe Mantles and Aptitudes? Just mechanics (and Lore, since all Servants are Heroic Spirits) wise, the story prolly isn't the best to derive from.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Also that reminds me, since we have the Weavers, we probably want to call the Parca that deals with weaving something else. I was also thinking about splitting that very Parca into two, one that deals with relationships between threads and one that deals with the thread as a whole. Thoughts?
    It's prolly best. How about "Matchmakers" for the ones that deal with relationships and the one that deal with the threads as a whole, they're called the Conquerers or something?

    Leave a comment:


  • ShadowKnight1224
    replied
    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    This sounds good. To go abit more into author terms, it's hard to make a story when there isn't people around to enjoy them? The Weavers are like authors, and they feed off of people reacting to their stories in a meaningful way.
    Yeah, they're more like fan fiction writers, since the original tales came from humanity itself. They then wove it into reality, creating actual monsters and heroes and supporting cast to further inspire more stories. Sorta like proto-True-Fae, but the opposite. Instead of lacking creativity and focusing on control, they lacked control and focused on creativity. This lack of control is why the Sovereigns exist. The Weavers can't influence the world by themselves, they can only empower and communicate (poorly).

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I thought that one bit of Paragons were to be like heroes and playing on the tropes that Princess didn't take up? Even towards Heroes or Champions being names once thought up to fit them. It'd feel abit weird that they cannot take centerstage themselves.

    If it's not minded to ask, how about a compromise? They could be both the supporting cast that make others strong or who contribute to other's stories, or they could be the heroes who play through the stories themselves and direct fate to it's natural end? They could play a supporting role or be as the protagonist (or Antagonist if it suited them), depending on how either they wanted to play or how things played out? This offers greater flexibility for what being a Paragon (as a protector of Fate as you seem to suggest and as a hero to men to guide them like I have) means and gives greater flexibility towards players and storytellers to make what a Paragon is to be about. Like the little girl in the taco commercials says, "Why not both?"
    Well, the idea was that they were both, yes. Originally, they were relegated to supporting cast, but once the Loom got torn apart, they were forced to step up to the Protagonist role and start doing some heroism of their own. So nowadays they're flexible enough to do either or both at once That's also another difference between Paragons and Princesses. While a Princess may waver in her embrace of what she is and what is expected of her, she's still a centerstage role, she has the Light inside of her. The Paragon is the reluctant hero, the side character that has to step in, which is why Confidence is so important for them. Paragons live in the uncertainty of trying to do the right thing with fractured, unreliable information.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    This gives me a small idea. What if the Sovereigns were empowered by Destiny? The concept of inescapable fate, no matter whether good or bad, sounds entirely befitting to narcissists who believe that their wants are predestined to be fulfilled.
    That's an interesting idea, but IMO they could simply be former Paragons and Children of Morus that have "freed" themselves from the "shackles" of the Powers That Be, and now are using their granted powers for their own benefit. The way I see them, they're probably far too cynical to believe in anything.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I kind of like how the Weavers seem to be turning out to be like the exact opposites of the Exarchs. Instead of subjugating and suppressing the world, they instead empower it and give the ability to choose how you'll act.

    Anyways, while I like the idea of crossover potential, I feel like we should focus on building it as if it were a standalone gameline, then focus on crossover potential after it's been made, how it can be interpreted in other splats viewpoints and the like. It feels like it'd be a small bit of a headache to need to know what things are in other gamelines to get what is trying to be played at here.
    Well, the Destiny Weavers are probably just like the Exarchs, but yes, the other Weavers are definitely the polar opposite.

    Fair enough! I don't think the crossover potential is too distracting, but we can definitely leave that for later.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see. I don't think Dark Omens has anything negative towards acting on them, but seem to be more of a benefit. If I could propose a change, what if instead of granting benefits, a Paragon suffers some kind of drawback if they don't follow through on them? For example, a Penalty equal to half the Paragon's Vehemence, rounded up, towards all rolls save those acting against them?

    Now I imagine, as perhaps abit of temptation at becoming one, if this idea is taken up then the Sovereigns have an immunity to Dark Omens, having cut themselves away from what they think is controlling them when they are, in fact, controlling their own fate. Or at least some power that offers them immunity to them. Perhaps an aptitude?
    That's what I meant to say, yes, sorry for the confusion. Dark Omens don't really do anything for you if you follow them, other than guide you straight to the Plot Du Jour. Ignoring them is where they start giving you a mechanical hindrance. As for the hindrance itself, I was considering them giving you a Condition that grows steadily worse the more time passes, such as starting with Shaken if you ignore them for a full day, and increasing up to Madness after a week (we should probably pick a couple of filler Conditions for between those two). Obviously, these Conditions would not give you any Beats.

    That's an excellent idea for the Sovereigns. Since Dark Omens are a Template Feature, we could simply replace them. Sovereigns, instead of having the Dark Omens, have something else entirely.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see, In that case, I imagine that they'd most likely keep their actual affiliations secret, being able to live like a wolf in sheeps clothing amongst other paragons. Think of it like if Lex Luthor and Superman were Paragons. Lex Luthor is obviously the villain, but he's known for such good deeds and is respected by the average citizen, nobody could ever see him as a corrupt person. And yet behind the scenes, he has many atrocities under his belt and knows how to get away from all kinds of laws, even the supposedly supreme power of Fate itself.
    Yeah, that works. Sovereigns having a culture of mingling with mortals and just exploiting everything for their own whims is an interesting thing. We could also make them more "realistic" and instead of giving them supervillain plots or the like, we could simply make them extremely selfish and self-centered hedonists who exist only to enjoy life to the fullest. Of course, that still leaves room for atrocities for them to do. And since we're emphasising how individualistic Sovereigns are, Storytellers still have room to create one that wants to pull off some bigger scheme if that's what they want to do with them.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    To be more specific, I mean more of the storyline. The things that stand out to me in Exalted that could fit as inspirations for this gameline is how people become Exalted or what roles they play. To note, I'm mostly getting these from impression as I'm not entirely well read on them.

    Solars, the Chosen of the Sun, are the leaders of other exalted and made to be shiny and beautiful god-kings, who are basically badass at whatever they do and Exalted because they did something that was supposed to be impossible, and yet they DID IT ANYWAYS! The Lunars, Chosen of the Moon, are ferocious and terrible in comparison to Solars and who are the most versatile of the exalted, each made to have a special connection to one Solar, the way of becoming a Lunar is to face an extreme hardship, and yet you continue to survive anyways. Sidereals, the Chosen of the Maidens of Fate, were made to uphold the loom of fate and ensure that it keeps turning as it should, trying to make sure whatever happens, happens by any means necessary, and the reason they became Exalted was because either they were fated to, or because they've managed to escape their fate. The Terrestrial Exalted, Chosen of the Five Elemental Dragons, were made as footsoldiers against things that would harm the world and find strength in numbers. I can't find how one Exalts as a Terrestrial, but I assume it's a mix of genetics (theirs is the only exaltation that can be done genetically rather than from some outer force noticing them), and acting in favor of a group the person cares for, since Terrestrial Exalted find strength in numbers and are dominant as such. Finally, the Abyssal Exalted are the Chosen of the Deathlords, they're dark reflections of the Solars and made to bring death and doom onto creation. They exalt upon their death, in exchange for living longer they must bring doom to existence.

    Simply put, here's the inspirations and motifs that I feel could be fitting for Paragons, drawing from Exalted. The ability to play as the main hero/leader (Solar), the versatile helpers/deuteronagist (Lunar), the simply fated chessmasters/manipulators (Sidereal), the guardians of important ones of existence (Terrestrial), or the doombringers or those who bring an end to things (Abyssal). Not to mention, the ways that they Exalt is abit the same as a Paragon becomes one (they were noticed by an outside force and given a certain task to act on). I'm sorry, I'm just bringing up things that could potentially add more to the gameline and I hope I'm not sounding bad. D:
    Oh that's super interesting! Thanks for typing that up, I hadn't noticed the parallels before. I'd say the Abyssals sound like a good fit for the Children of Morus, and the rest of the Exalted sound like different roles the Paragons could take as individuals. Perhaps we could use them as inspiration for the Z-Splat? Like a sort of "beyond being a Spinner Fury, I take the role of the Watcher. I am stronger when I watch over people and act according to what I've seen." Or "I take the role of the Hero, I am strongest when I take the spotlight and do what no-one else can do."

    Also that reminds me, since we have the Weavers, we probably want to call the Parca that deals with weaving something else. I was also thinking about splitting that very Parca into two, one that deals with relationships between threads and one that deals with the thread as a whole. Thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • SaulottheGentle
    replied
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Well, I don't want to pry, but if you want to discuss it further via PM, my inbox is open! I do hope I didn't offend accidentally.
    Don't worry, it's not you at all.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Hmmmmm. That's a valid point. It'd be interesting to tie to Vehemence, perhaps. At low Vehemence levels, the Paragons can only sense and trace the Weave of Fate (including individual threads), and at higher levels of Vehemence, they can tamper with it.
    Indeed.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    I actually really like that starting point! I do want to make a change here, with eyes towards future crossover compatibility:

    The Storytellers become Weavers. The Weavers were created from humanity's stories and yearning. The Weavers fed from the stories mankind created and then wove reality from those stories, which then fed them more stories. We could offer a crossover-friendly explanation for Weavers, implying they were special spirits that aligned themselves with an extremely specific type of human emotion, and were able to feed from stories and humanity's longing for them and for the things depicted in them.
    This sounds good. To go abit more into author terms, it's hard to make a story when there isn't people around to enjoy them? The Weavers are like authors, and they feed off of people reacting to their stories in a meaningful way.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    The change I'm proposing is that, when the Weavers were weaving reality from tales in the Loom, the Paragons weren't the protagonists or the heroes, they were the supporting cast. Usually, they were the hero's source of wisdom, counsel or prophecy, and rarely, they were allowed to save or protect heroes from danger. At best, they were antagonists, meant to put the hero through a crucible that would ultimately strengthen them (Furies and Keres were particularly good at this). However, the Weavers, as they grew accustomed to their role, began expressing personality and individuality. Some believed in Destiny, an inescapable force of doom. Others believed in the Wyrd, a force of connections and contracts. Others believed in Fate, a force of change and serendipity. Others, more radical, believed in Chaos, true randomness. Some defended the right of mortals to exercise their Free Will and weave their own tales and fates.
    I thought that one bit of Paragons were to be like heroes and playing on the tropes that Princess didn't take up? Even towards Heroes or Champions being names once thought up to fit them. It'd feel abit weird that they cannot take centerstage themselves.

    If it's not minded to ask, how about a compromise? They could be both the supporting cast that make others strong or who contribute to other's stories, or they could be the heroes who play through the stories themselves and direct fate to it's natural end? They could play a supporting role or be as the protagonist (or Antagonist if it suited them), depending on how either they wanted to play or how things played out? This offers greater flexibility for what being a Paragon (as a protector of Fate as you seem to suggest and as a hero to men to guide them like I have) means and gives greater flexibility towards players and storytellers to make what a Paragon is to be about. Like the little girl in the taco commercials says, "Why not both?"

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Eventually, this tension destroyed the Loom of Fate, dampening humanity's connection with stories and creating a sensation of ennui and despair. The Weavers snatched whatever pieces of the Loom they could and scattered to the winds, each trying to subsist off those shards as best they could. During those dark times, Heroes lacked purpose and guidance. They became short-sighted and focused on the Monsters they were supposed to defeat. Those that supported Destiny used the shards to play Hero against Monster, knowing that one of them was doomed regardless of the outcome, and creating perpetual cycles of meaningless death and conflict. Those who supported the Wyrd secreted themselves away in another realm, where they used humanity's tales to power yet another perpetual cycle.
    This gives me a small idea. What if the Sovereigns were empowered by Destiny? The concept of inescapable fate, no matter whether good or bad, sounds entirely befitting to narcissists who believe that their wants are predestined to be fulfilled.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Those who supported Chaos, Fate and Free Will banded together and empowered the Loom's servants, the Keres, Valkyries, Furies, Norns and Moirai of old, and gave them the power they needed to step into the role of protagonist, to do what was necessary to protect, empower and better humanity. These Weavers were the only ones able to break free from their kind's dependency on stories and stuck in their self-perpetuating cycles. These Weavers could derive sustenance from the Paragons' actions. When a Paragon succeeds at creating a positive change in humanity, whether that's punishing, saving, educating, intervening at the right time or any other action within the Paragon's purview, humanity feels a flutter of hope and yearning. That blend of emotion (which is related to Promethean's Elpis) feeds the Weavers, allowing them not only to subsist, but to empower Paragons (and the general consensus is that the Weavers are the ones behind the Dark Omens).

    For some of those that know this backstory, this feels like yet another self-perpetuating cycle for the Weavers, but since this one is beneficial for humanity, they tend to avoid thinking too hard about it.

    How does this sound?
    I kind of like how the Weavers seem to be turning out to be like the exact opposites of the Exarchs. Instead of subjugating and suppressing the world, they instead empower it and give the ability to choose how you'll act.

    Anyways, while I like the idea of crossover potential, I feel like we should focus on building it as if it were a standalone gameline, then focus on crossover potential after it's been made, how it can be interpreted in other splats viewpoints and the like. It feels like it'd be a small bit of a headache to need to know what things are in other gamelines to get what is trying to be played at here.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Well, the Paragon is being paid for with power, of course. And the Dark Omens exist precisely so that the Paragon can't skip out on work. We could easily say that ignoring the Dark Omens for too long becomes a Confidence Breaking Point, and imposes conditions such as Madness, Shaken and the like.
    I see. I don't think Dark Omens has anything negative towards acting on them, but seem to be more of a benefit. If I could propose a change, what if instead of granting benefits, a Paragon suffers some kind of drawback if they don't follow through on them? For example, a Penalty equal to half the Paragon's Vehemence, rounded up, towards all rolls save those acting against them?

    Now I imagine, as perhaps abit of temptation at becoming one, if this idea is taken up then the Sovereigns have an immunity to Dark Omens, having cut themselves away from what they think is controlling them when they are, in fact, controlling their own fate. Or at least some power that offers them immunity to them. Perhaps an aptitude?


    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    I don't think the Sovereigns would hate each other at all; on the contrary, they'd see each other as "the only smart ones." That said, when I mentioned something like 1 or 2 per city, I was referring more to their rarity. Since they'd make enemies out of pretty much everyone, Paragons included, I don't really expect them to last long as an organised group. Unless we give them a culture of stealth and low-key exploitation of their powers, instead of one of boastfulness, it's hard to imagine more than one or two existing in the same location.
    I see, In that case, I imagine that they'd most likely keep their actual affiliations secret, being able to live like a wolf in sheeps clothing amongst other paragons. Think of it like if Lex Luthor and Superman were Paragons. Lex Luthor is obviously the villain, but he's known for such good deeds and is respected by the average citizen, nobody could ever see him as a corrupt person. And yet behind the scenes, he has many atrocities under his belt and knows how to get away from all kinds of laws, even the supposedly supreme power of Fate itself.


    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    I tried to read Exalted once, but I saw the mechanics and their complexity and I was like "...maybe some other time." :P
    To be more specific, I mean more of the storyline. The things that stand out to me in Exalted that could fit as inspirations for this gameline is how people become Exalted or what roles they play. To note, I'm mostly getting these from impression as I'm not entirely well read on them.

    Solars, the Chosen of the Sun, are the leaders of other exalted and made to be shiny and beautiful god-kings, who are basically badass at whatever they do and Exalted because they did something that was supposed to be impossible, and yet they DID IT ANYWAYS! The Lunars, Chosen of the Moon, are ferocious and terrible in comparison to Solars and who are the most versatile of the exalted, each made to have a special connection to one Solar, the way of becoming a Lunar is to face an extreme hardship, and yet you continue to survive anyways. Sidereals, the Chosen of the Maidens of Fate, were made to uphold the loom of fate and ensure that it keeps turning as it should, trying to make sure whatever happens, happens by any means necessary, and the reason they became Exalted was because either they were fated to, or because they've managed to escape their fate. The Terrestrial Exalted, Chosen of the Five Elemental Dragons, were made as footsoldiers against things that would harm the world and find strength in numbers. I can't find how one Exalts as a Terrestrial, but I assume it's a mix of genetics (theirs is the only exaltation that can be done genetically rather than from some outer force noticing them), and acting in favor of a group the person cares for, since Terrestrial Exalted find strength in numbers and are dominant as such. Finally, the Abyssal Exalted are the Chosen of the Deathlords, they're dark reflections of the Solars and made to bring death and doom onto creation. They exalt upon their death, in exchange for living longer they must bring doom to existence.

    Simply put, here's the inspirations and motifs that I feel could be fitting for Paragons, drawing from Exalted. The ability to play as the main hero/leader (Solar), the versatile helpers/deuteronagist (Lunar), the simply fated chessmasters/manipulators (Sidereal), the guardians of important ones of existence (Terrestrial), or the doombringers or those who bring an end to things (Abyssal). Not to mention, the ways that they Exalt is abit the same as a Paragon becomes one (they were noticed by an outside force and given a certain task to act on). I'm sorry, I'm just bringing up things that could potentially add more to the gameline and I hope I'm not sounding bad. D:

    Leave a comment:


  • ShadowKnight1224
    replied
    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I think if it's ok to state, I think it might be best to leave Confidence to you, since you have more ideas on how it should be done and all of my thoughts are mainly personal thoughts. It can be asked in a PM, let's say it's things that I know better than to post openly on the internet.Your ideas sound well enough though.
    Well, I don't want to pry, but if you want to discuss it further via PM, my inbox is open! I do hope I didn't offend accidentally.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I think that the "Weave of Fate" could potentially be more like a sensory like system rather than another set of powers to use. I don't know how to put it other than that I feel it should be like a mechanic where it's completely possible to do it mundanely and almost even without noticing it. At least to mundane mortals, to Paragons, they could have powers like you said, to be able to make it however they want or like, but it's time and effort consuming to see it all through.
    Hmmmmm. That's a valid point. It'd be interesting to tie to Vehemence, perhaps. At low Vehemence levels, the Paragons can only sense and trace the Weave of Fate (including individual threads), and at higher levels of Vehemence, they can tamper with it.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I'm currently imagining something along the lines of figures known as Storytellers/Gamemasters (so they're not mixed up with Storytellers in the sense of "the person who's telling the game and rolling the dice") who are basically gods of the setting who work with the underpinings of reality. They're able to perfectly manipulate fate (I'd say that if we want to calculate their power on a scale we can work with, let's say that they're basically ABOVE True Fae) and with their powers they made Paragons, the "Protagonists"/"Heroes" of the stories they told. I imagine that most of them at one point were fine with their roles, being the heroes that nobody else could be. But then they began to feel resentful to the Storytellers. Perhaps they hated the cruel circumstances they had to go through in the line of their powers, or in getting them (what heroes in myth don't face tragedy? Gilgamesh loses Enkidu, Hercules is made to kill his children and wife and atone for it, etcetc) but failing horribly. Many perhaps began to feel that Fate was cruel, unfair. This got up to a boiling point to where the Paragons decided to completely screw over Fate and get better for their troubles, but the Storytellers could throw absolutely ANYTHING at them. Knowing this, the Paragons decided to hit the Storyteller's tool to make stories, the Loom Of Fate itself.

    As the Loom shattered, so to did most of the Storytellers control over existence. However, without the Loom, Fate had begun to be twisted out in tormented ways, in states of such grand cruelty where the World of Darkness had basically came to be. Perhaps the most sensible of the Paragons saw what they had done, and decided the best way to take care of reality was to try and fix up fate themselves, taking up the job that the Storytellers who had disappeared had once done, to keep fate turning. Perhaps some felt that they were right to destroy the loom, and now they had the right to control reality as they had usurped the Storytellers places, becoming the Sovereigns. Perhaps some felt that they had shattered more than just fate, but they majorly damaged the world. And they feel the best thing to do for it now would be to break everything that's left.

    Greek Relations: Unstoppable gods in charge of things, Paragons/Heroes always faced some sort of Tragedy
    Norse Relation: the concept of Ragnarok, the end of the gods and heroes and the good times of the world.

    As for what happened to the Storytellers after the Paragons broken the loom of fate? Perhaps they do still exist, weaving out broken pieces of fate with their fragments of the loom. Some may be good, some may be evil. It's just as possible for a Storyteller to do Noblebright as it is to do Grimdark.
    I actually really like that starting point! I do want to make a change here, with eyes towards future crossover compatibility:

    The Storytellers become Weavers. The Weavers were created from humanity's stories and yearning. The Weavers fed from the stories mankind created and then wove reality from those stories, which then fed them more stories. We could offer a crossover-friendly explanation for Weavers, implying they were special spirits that aligned themselves with an extremely specific type of human emotion, and were able to feed from stories and humanity's longing for them and for the things depicted in them.

    The change I'm proposing is that, when the Weavers were weaving reality from tales in the Loom, the Paragons weren't the protagonists or the heroes, they were the supporting cast. Usually, they were the hero's source of wisdom, counsel or prophecy, and rarely, they were allowed to save or protect heroes from danger. At best, they were antagonists, meant to put the hero through a crucible that would ultimately strengthen them (Furies and Keres were particularly good at this). However, the Weavers, as they grew accustomed to their role, began expressing personality and individuality. Some believed in Destiny, an inescapable force of doom. Others believed in the Wyrd, a force of connections and contracts. Others believed in Fate, a force of change and serendipity. Others, more radical, believed in Chaos, true randomness. Some defended the right of mortals to exercise their Free Will and weave their own tales and fates.

    Eventually, this tension destroyed the Loom of Fate, dampening humanity's connection with stories and creating a sensation of ennui and despair. The Weavers snatched whatever pieces of the Loom they could and scattered to the winds, each trying to subsist off those shards as best they could. During those dark times, Heroes lacked purpose and guidance. They became short-sighted and focused on the Monsters they were supposed to defeat. Those that supported Destiny used the shards to play Hero against Monster, knowing that one of them was doomed regardless of the outcome, and creating perpetual cycles of meaningless death and conflict. Those who supported the Wyrd secreted themselves away in another realm, where they used humanity's tales to power yet another perpetual cycle.

    Those who supported Chaos, Fate and Free Will banded together and empowered the Loom's servants, the Keres, Valkyries, Furies, Norns and Moirai of old, and gave them the power they needed to step into the role of protagonist, to do what was necessary to protect, empower and better humanity. These Weavers were the only ones able to break free from their kind's dependency on stories and stuck in their self-perpetuating cycles. These Weavers could derive sustenance from the Paragons' actions. When a Paragon succeeds at creating a positive change in humanity, whether that's punishing, saving, educating, intervening at the right time or any other action within the Paragon's purview, humanity feels a flutter of hope and yearning. That blend of emotion (which is related to Promethean's Elpis) feeds the Weavers, allowing them not only to subsist, but to empower Paragons (and the general consensus is that the Weavers are the ones behind the Dark Omens).

    For some of those that know this backstory, this feels like yet another self-perpetuating cycle for the Weavers, but since this one is beneficial for humanity, they tend to avoid thinking too hard about it.

    How does this sound?

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see. The only problem is, what is the Paragon being paid with exactly? Because AFAIK, once a Supernatural is a supernatural, there isn't much possible that can take that away from them (save Archmaster magic or a Genius with Epikrato 5). The power's theirs already, the Paragon can skip out on work, though then they're more than likely a Sovereign.
    Well, the Paragon is being paid for with power, of course. And the Dark Omens exist precisely so that the Paragon can't skip out on work. We could easily say that ignoring the Dark Omens for too long becomes a Confidence Breaking Point, and imposes conditions such as Madness, Shaken and the like.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    To put it best, a friend of mine suggested that, to perhaps skimp away from a Court of Mirrors vibe (They're all narcissists who hate each other as there can be only one True Heir, the Princess who will save the world and bring back the kingdom), that the Sovereigns should have more of a "Supervillain League" feeling. What do you guys think? In this way, they do have abit more organization.
    I don't think the Sovereigns would hate each other at all; on the contrary, they'd see each other as "the only smart ones." That said, when I mentioned something like 1 or 2 per city, I was referring more to their rarity. Since they'd make enemies out of pretty much everyone, Paragons included, I don't really expect them to last long as an organised group. Unless we give them a culture of stealth and low-key exploitation of their powers, instead of one of boastfulness, it's hard to imagine more than one or two existing in the same location.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    Exalted in general would be a good inspiration for this gameline. :3
    I tried to read Exalted once, but I saw the mechanics and their complexity and I was like "...maybe some other time." :P

    Leave a comment:


  • SaulottheGentle
    replied
    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    I actually think Confidence should be a fluid stat: it's really hard to feel like "it's meant to be" or "I'm making a difference" when things go awry, and conversely, it's easy to fall into overconfidence once things start going your way. It's a classic trope that I think serves to highlight how delicate the balance is between what's in your hands and what's determined by external forces.

    A potential idea we could borrow from Changeling is the idea that succeeding at a Breaking Point can give you a Condition that you can later on turn into a dot of Confidence if you fulfill a requirement. Perhaps we can do that with Failures as well: if you resolve the Condition by doing something that affirms your self-confidence, you don't lose Confidence. If the Condition "times out", you lose a dot of Confidence. A Dramatic Failure and an Exceptional Success would still give/remove a dot of Confidence immediately.

    That was a very interesting read! But as the article itself says, it's extremely easy to go from confidence to hubris, without even realising you're doing it. If we go by the ideas I proposed, where a Breaking Point can give you a Condition that, if another thing happens, gives you a dot of Confidence (whether you like it or not), we can then have another set of Conditions that trigger at high Confidence values and that, if they get resolved in order, will lead the Paragon down the path of hubris. This gradual change reflects the idea that you don't realise the shift.

    That also allows you to have Sovereigns with mid-to-high Confidence and still be Sovereigns because of the Conditions they've accrued. Does that work for you?
    I think if it's ok to state, I think it might be best to leave Confidence to you, since you have more ideas on how it should be done and all of my thoughts are mainly personal thoughts. It can be asked in a PM, let's say it's things that I know better than to post openly on the internet.Your ideas sound well enough though.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    Yeah, those mechanics are going to be tricky to come up with. I was thinking that all things have a "Thread of Fate" that Paragons and other Fate-aligned people can see and follow, and some can even alter it (or cut it completely), but I don't really know we could translate that into mechanics. I'd have to give it some thought, since this would be the equivalent of Blood Sorcery/Talecrafting. A very open-ended, potentially powerful but time- and effort-consuming affair.
    I think that the "Weave of Fate" could potentially be more like a sensory like system rather than another set of powers to use. I don't know how to put it other than that I feel it should be like a mechanic where it's completely possible to do it mundanely and almost even without noticing it. At least to mundane mortals, to Paragons, they could have powers like you said, to be able to make it however they want or like, but it's time and effort consuming to see it all through.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    No backstory yet! Feel free to throw in ideas, I'm thinking about something Greek and Norse-related.
    I'm currently imagining something along the lines of figures known as Storytellers/Gamemasters (so they're not mixed up with Storytellers in the sense of "the person who's telling the game and rolling the dice") who are basically gods of the setting who work with the underpinings of reality. They're able to perfectly manipulate fate (I'd say that if we want to calculate their power on a scale we can work with, let's say that they're basically ABOVE True Fae) and with their powers they made Paragons, the "Protagonists"/"Heroes" of the stories they told. I imagine that most of them at one point were fine with their roles, being the heroes that nobody else could be. But then they began to feel resentful to the Storytellers. Perhaps they hated the cruel circumstances they had to go through in the line of their powers, or in getting them (what heroes in myth don't face tragedy? Gilgamesh loses Enkidu, Hercules is made to kill his children and wife and atone for it, etcetc) but failing horribly. Many perhaps began to feel that Fate was cruel, unfair. This got up to a boiling point to where the Paragons decided to completely screw over Fate and get better for their troubles, but the Storytellers could throw absolutely ANYTHING at them. Knowing this, the Paragons decided to hit the Storyteller's tool to make stories, the Loom Of Fate itself.

    As the Loom shattered, so to did most of the Storytellers control over existence. However, without the Loom, Fate had begun to be twisted out in tormented ways, in states of such grand cruelty where the World of Darkness had basically came to be. Perhaps the most sensible of the Paragons saw what they had done, and decided the best way to take care of reality was to try and fix up fate themselves, taking up the job that the Storytellers who had disappeared had once done, to keep fate turning. Perhaps some felt that they were right to destroy the loom, and now they had the right to control reality as they had usurped the Storytellers places, becoming the Sovereigns. Perhaps some felt that they had shattered more than just fate, but they majorly damaged the world. And they feel the best thing to do for it now would be to break everything that's left.

    Greek Relations: Unstoppable gods in charge of things, Paragons/Heroes always faced some sort of Tragedy
    Norse Relation: the concept of Ragnarok, the end of the gods and heroes and the good times of the world.

    As for what happened to the Storytellers after the Paragons broken the loom of fate? Perhaps they do still exist, weaving out broken pieces of fate with their fragments of the loom. Some may be good, some may be evil. It's just as possible for a Storyteller to do Noblebright as it is to do Grimdark.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    I was under the impression that Princess's exhaustion mood is more about the eventual grind of the world on the character, rather than a cyclical ups-and-downs thing, which is what I'm proposing. The way I'm looking at it is less about the darkness of the world taking its toll on the Paragon, but instead about the Paragon having to give their all and receive no other reward than Confidence and the feeling of having done the right thing.

    I think we should definitely examine the idea of minor shifts of fate and how they relate to the overarching themes. I like the idea of making small changes for the better, but you can't really escape the Dark Omens forever. At some point, Fate is going to come calling and asking you to do the "work" that it's "paying" you for.
    I see. The only problem is, what is the Paragon being paid with exactly? Because AFAIK, once a Supernatural is a supernatural, there isn't much possible that can take that away from them (save Archmaster magic or a Genius with Epikrato 5). The power's theirs already, the Paragon can skip out on work, though then they're more than likely a Sovereign.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    A Paragon's antagonists are sometimes the very people they're trying to help, or their loved ones, or random strangers who want to exploit the current state of things and don't tolerate the idea of something that upsets the status quo.

    I think the Sovereigns fit a good Seers/Pure/Loyalist equivalent. They probably won't be showing up in the "early game", so to speak, but they will become more prominent as the players start getting used to their role and start expanding their horizons. I think the Sovereigns are too narcissistic to have a proper society, but we could have them be territorial and see other Paragons (including other Sovereigns) as threats and competition.
    To put it best, a friend of mine suggested that, to perhaps skimp away from a Court of Mirrors vibe (They're all narcissists who hate each other as there can be only one True Heir, the Princess who will save the world and bring back the kingdom), that the Sovereigns should have more of a "Supervillain League" feeling. What do you guys think? In this way, they do have abit more organization.

    Originally posted by ShadowKnight1224 View Post
    I'm only passingly familiar with Exalted, but I do think you got some good ideas in that regard. For the Maiden of Endings, we could certainly have a society of antagonists (perhaps Morus that go off the deep end, and serve as a common antagonist for both Paragons and Children of Morus).
    Exalted in general would be a good inspiration for this gameline. :3

    Leave a comment:


  • ShadowKnight1224
    replied
    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I don't believe that losing Confidence should be that easy. I mean, Sanity is easier to lose for troubled people, but I feel that Confidence should at least be a strong foundation unless something challenges that confidence. For example, I can see that general reasons for why Confidence would fall (merit a Degeneration roll) is if a Paragon fails an important event, or fails carrying out a certain fate or the like. I can also imagine failing to live up to other's expectations to be a degeneration, but perhaps only for High Confidence people.
    I actually think Confidence should be a fluid stat: it's really hard to feel like "it's meant to be" or "I'm making a difference" when things go awry, and conversely, it's easy to fall into overconfidence once things start going your way. It's a classic trope that I think serves to highlight how delicate the balance is between what's in your hands and what's determined by external forces.

    A potential idea we could borrow from Changeling is the idea that succeeding at a Breaking Point can give you a Condition that you can later on turn into a dot of Confidence if you fulfill a requirement. Perhaps we can do that with Failures as well: if you resolve the Condition by doing something that affirms your self-confidence, you don't lose Confidence. If the Condition "times out", you lose a dot of Confidence. A Dramatic Failure and an Exceptional Success would still give/remove a dot of Confidence immediately.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    You're welcome. I think sooner or later, we'll need to choose out on mechanics for fate working. We've talked about "Following the Threads", "Major/Minor Shifts of Fate", "Snags in the Wave" and other things I can't recall at the moment. Oh, and do we have a backstory for the paragons if I might ask? Or at least, on the beings that make up Paragons.

    And I hope it doesn't sound too bad, but the parts about a Paragon spending almost everything to make big changes and being exhausted in the end, it's abit akin to Princess's Mood of Exhaustion. Given that the mood for Paragon is Complacency, I think that while it's befitting what you suggested for a Paragon to act that way, I also imagine that they could do many minor shifts of fate. Since over time, many minor things can amount to cause a big change or shift into things. I also imagine that trying to move people to complete a thread of fate is also befitting for the mood of Complacency, since it's helping to resolve the mood. It also fits for Paragons, who are the legendary heroes of Fate whose stories and fame could change the fate and decisions of entire nations.
    Yeah, those mechanics are going to be tricky to come up with. I was thinking that all things have a "Thread of Fate" that Paragons and other Fate-aligned people can see and follow, and some can even alter it (or cut it completely), but I don't really know we could translate that into mechanics. I'd have to give it some thought, since this would be the equivalent of Blood Sorcery/Talecrafting. A very open-ended, potentially powerful but time- and effort-consuming affair.

    No backstory yet! Feel free to throw in ideas, I'm thinking about something Greek and Norse-related.

    I was under the impression that Princess's exhaustion mood is more about the eventual grind of the world on the character, rather than a cyclical ups-and-downs thing, which is what I'm proposing. The way I'm looking at it is less about the darkness of the world taking its toll on the Paragon, but instead about the Paragon having to give their all and receive no other reward than Confidence and the feeling of having done the right thing.

    I think we should definitely examine the idea of minor shifts of fate and how they relate to the overarching themes. I like the idea of making small changes for the better, but you can't really escape the Dark Omens forever. At some point, Fate is going to come calling and asking you to do the "work" that it's "paying" you for.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    To be fair, most splats have "get a reward at the cost of possible degeneration". Mages can kill people to regain Mana, Werewolves can eat human flesh to regain Essence, and if it's not bad to state despite it not being finished, Sirens can kill a human and eat their soul, regaining all of their Pneuma. Perhaps a Paragon denying someone else their perfect moments could be said as them snipping off some of the threads of Fate to add to their own. Maybe this is what Kairos is, snippets of thread that become connected when a Paragon uses their Mantles or Aptitudes.
    I definitely agree with this, though the Kairos harvesting is less about snipping threads of Fate and more about stealing moments of importance. A Paragon's core power is not really the manipulation of Fate, that's more of a side-effect of being so infused with Fate themselves. A Paragon's core power is being in the right place at the right time and saying or doing the right thing, not by serendipity but by wilful choice.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see. So I take it that the antagonists (if we're speaking in terms of people) are the people who'd take advantage of the one major problem (the true antagonist "Complacency") for their own uses? I hope it doesn't sound bad, but I think the Sovereigns of Divine Right would befit this role, using Complacency of the people to remain in charge or establishing themselves in long held tradition or by creating and enforcing their rules onto everyone about them. Light Yagami is a good idea of the latter, becoming Kira and using the Death Note to kill all criminals and ruling through fear of a god who punishes all wrongdoing.
    A Paragon's antagonists are sometimes the very people they're trying to help, or their loved ones, or random strangers who want to exploit the current state of things and don't tolerate the idea of something that upsets the status quo.

    I think the Sovereigns fit a good Seers/Pure/Loyalist equivalent. They probably won't be showing up in the "early game", so to speak, but they will become more prominent as the players start getting used to their role and start expanding their horizons. I think the Sovereigns are too narcissistic to have a proper society, but we could have them be territorial and see other Paragons (including other Sovereigns) as threats and competition.

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    I see. Thank you for explaining and the thought. I was kind of thinking of the Maiden of Endings from Exalted, since her Schtick (she works on the loom of fate to end all things, and even conspires to see an end come to other concepts in reality) is befitting for Paragons. Heck, I think that the Sidereal Exalted could be an inspiration to take in for Paragon.
    I'm only passingly familiar with Exalted, but I do think you got some good ideas in that regard. For the Maiden of Endings, we could certainly have a society of antagonists (perhaps Morus that go off the deep end, and serve as a common antagonist for both Paragons and Children of Morus).

    Originally posted by SaulottheGentle View Post
    Thank you. :3 Although if I may note, I think that Confidence 10 would mean that a Paragon is fully self assured in their abilities and capabilities in action, but overconfidence could be something that Paragons can lose their actual Confidence over. This one thing plays it out best.

    "It’s incredibly easy to slide from confidence into pride. To slide from a healthy view of self to an unhealthy perspective of your gifts and abilities. In fact, if you’re not careful, you won’t even realize you’ve made the transition. It takes intentionally holding up a contrasting material for you to see this invisible line. Know this: if the line disappears, you’re in trouble. If you can’t tell when you’re moving into pride, your leadership will be damaged. You’ll make poor decisions. You’ll destroy relationships. And you’ll leave a pathway of destruction that will take years to rebuild."

    http://www.benreed.net/the-differenc...de-confidence/

    The Sovereigns in my mind was to kind of fill in as a flaw that the Paragons can fall into. They believe themselves more important than the individual human and believe they can do and control everything to go the way they want to. As such, I sort of imagined that most of them tend to be at normal to lower levels of Confidence. Sorry if it goes against your view of it. D:
    That was a very interesting read! But as the article itself says, it's extremely easy to go from confidence to hubris, without even realising you're doing it. If we go by the ideas I proposed, where a Breaking Point can give you a Condition that, if another thing happens, gives you a dot of Confidence (whether you like it or not), we can then have another set of Conditions that trigger at high Confidence values and that, if they get resolved in order, will lead the Paragon down the path of hubris. This gradual change reflects the idea that you don't realise the shift.

    That also allows you to have Sovereigns with mid-to-high Confidence and still be Sovereigns because of the Conditions they've accrued. Does that work for you?

    Originally posted by RickmanUK View Post
    I've been trying to think of something else.... but i Can't. Here Goes... the Akashic Records.

    Fate as an Entity and force is Linked into and part of the Akashic records, it is the guiding force behind them and keep them organised. It is only following the plan that has been left behind for it to follow, the plan that it was entrusted with, It shares it's place and responsibilities with Destiny it's twin and another Entity that has it's own role in the plan. When someone is Fated to one fate and Destined to another, that is all part of the Plan, Fate may dislike sharing its pieces but it has to let things go the way they are set-up.

    The Fated/Paragons are created when the plan is unclear, Fate and Destiny work on the person/persons at the centre of that piece/snag/string and leave them a choice, the way they handle it determines if they become Fated or something else.

    Is that a reasonable idea to work with as a "History" for the Paragons? (I've wracked my brain over finding something else to use other then the Akashic records as i know afew other Fan Splats and Main gamelines use them... but they are literally a central repository for Fate and Destiny from my understanding of them... I can't see anything else other then maybe an "Observatory at the end of Time" to use for Fate/Destiny.)
    Hmmmmm.

    The problem with the Akashic records is that they're too related to history, being the ethereal repository of all experience and thoughts. And since Saulot does bring up a good point about Sirens already using that as well, I say we come up with something that serves a similar function but doesn't draw upon that.

    Personally, I think Destiny should be the one that wants to follow the plan at all costs. Destiny could be the patron of the Children of Morus. Fate, in turn, wants to change things, because it sees Destiny as leading humanity to its eventual doom. We could run a parallel between Destiny and the Exarchs, with the idea that Destiny keeps humanity oppressed in an unchangeable, predetermined road towards its eventual doom, just like the Exarchs keeps humanity oppressed. Fate, then, is the force of chaos, change and need. It wants to break Destiny's hold on the world and usher humanity towards chaos and free will. Which is also where part of the "personal horror" element comes in. Fate is a spanner in the works. It's the coin that, instead of falling heads or tails, falls on its side, bounces off, falls down the stairs and ends up stuck on a crevice in the wall, causing a short circuit between exposed wires and cutting out the lights just before a careless teen knocks an electrical device into his bathtub. While Fate ostensibly has a plan (that is way more permissive and benevolent than Destiny's), it's also a source of chaos and free will. That same free will can be used by horrible people to do horrible things, which is why the Furies exist at all.

    So we could start with ancient Greece and Scandinavia and go from there, perhaps?

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