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  • #16
    Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
    Which book is that? I'm completely out of the loop as far as Werewolf is concerned.
    Werewolf's 2e corebook.


    I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
      Point is, and this goes for you too Xenesis, basic Forcing Doors doesn't permit retries. Only when enhanced by Hard Leverage.
      If failed, or if hard leverage was employed
      Key word, "or". I think you're intentionally skewing the reading of the rules as intended here to make a point, even if everyone agrees that the section could have used some polish. Forcing doors and failing the roll is not the only way to fail a Social Maneuver.

      Basically 3 states that allow for further influence:
      1) You succeeded in the prior Social Maneuver (whether long-term or forced doors)
      2) You failed in the prior Social Maneuver (whether long-term or forced doors)
      3) You applied Hard Leverage when forcing doors

      1 subtracts a door, 2 and 3 add additional doors.

      This is completely separate from the part of the rules where you can actually perform the Social Maneuver. Your states here are:
      1) Attempt to change Impression Level (to allow faster rolls)
      2) Attempt to open Doors
      3) Attempt to force Doors

      All performing 3 does is that if you fail, it ends the current Social Maneuver - you can no longer go back and do 1 or 2 (or, again 3) without starting from the start again.

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      • #18
        As Xenesis pointed out above, for someone so focused on RAW, you're going out of your way to ignore that, as written, you are explicitly allowed to try again if you fail the roll.

        I've gotten the impression from the vast majority of your posts the entire Storyteller/Storytelling system as a whole might not be for you. Tunnel-vision on RAW is much more suited to D20 systems that are written with that kind of mindset assumed as the default.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
          I've gotten the impression from the vast majority of your posts the entire Storyteller/Storytelling system as a whole might not be for you. Tunnel-vision on RAW is much more suited to D20 systems that are written with that kind of mindset assumed as the default.
          I disagree. Not even D20 systems handle RAW tunnel vision very well. If you take RAW without concern for RAI then you're going to be playing with a pretty busted system regardless of what game you're playing.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
            I disagree. Not even D20 systems handle RAW tunnel vision very well. If you take RAW without concern for RAI then you're going to be playing with a pretty busted system regardless of what game you're playing.
            Yep - don't let people on D&D forums fool you; that's like looking at people who make elaborate sculptures out of peanut butter and going "well, I guess peanut butter is supposed to be a sculpting material".

            Every time I've played or been in a d20 game, there was a lot of RAI and straight up "let's just roll for it", which it does pretty well.

            It's not World of Synnibar, where houserules are literally against the actual rules of the game.


            I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

            So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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            • #21
              Thanks, Leet.


              Neither the passage you quote, nor the "or" therein lends any support to your position that I can see, Xenesis. All that says is how a previous attempt at maneuvering and how well it went will impact on later efforts with that character. To represent familiarity or resentfulness, respectively, as one would expect. Neither of which will have any meaning if the character refuses to deal with you at all, as per the passage quoted on the last page.
              What is your point, even? That nothing a character does could piss off an NPC so bad they refuse to deal with her? That is the reading of the rules you want to go with?


              You don't need to worry about my system needs, Inodiv. I've been using Storytelling since 2004, and been fan-modding it for all that time. It serves my purposes far better than D&D does, let me assure you. I'm sometimes baffled by what I would do if it weren't for certain ways the Storytelling mechanics fit toghether, in fact.


              Making Star Wars WoD conversion. Gonna be done when it's done. Hopefully not too long now.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
                What is your point, even? That nothing a character does could piss off an NPC so bad they refuse to deal with her? That is the reading of the rules you want to go with?
                No, that's what the impressions ranking is for.

                Once you get to hostile you can't even roll.

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                • #23
                  But, as an interesting note, you can still Force Doors, even at hostile impression. I learned this from the Werewolf 2e core, it's one of the ways Uratha deal with Spirits, a lot of whom don't see them in a friendly fashion.


                  I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
                    But, as an interesting note, you can still Force Doors, even at hostile impression. I learned this from the Werewolf 2e core, it's one of the ways Uratha deal with Spirits, a lot of whom don't see them in a friendly fashion.
                    Uratha are great Social Maneuvering teachers.

                    How would penalties work for Forcing the Doors at Hostile works?


                    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                    • #25
                      Penalty equal to number of remaining doors.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                        Uratha are great Social Maneuvering teachers.

                        How would penalties work for Forcing the Doors at Hostile works?
                        Same as it does at any other Impression level - equal to the Mark's remaining Doors.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #27
                          Yeah. If you work with the understanding that people like Charlaquin or I have come to about social maneuvering, Hostile impression is less "I can't convince someone to do something at all" and more "I can't make it easier for myself by buttering them up, it's go big or go home."

                          Forcing Doors with a hostile impression is the stuff of movies and TV where the protagonist is like "Look, you don't like me and I don't like you, but..." and so on.


                          I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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                          • #28
                            Sorry for the necro, but further reading on these rules seems to lead to the inescapable conclusion that Darth was totally right in that 'Forcing Doors' does, irrevocably, prevent any further attempts at any Social Maneuvering for any purpose if failed

                            From 2E Werewolf:

                            FORCING DOORS
                            Sometimes, subtlety just won’t cut it. A character needs
                            something right now, and will do anything to persuade his
                            victim to do what he wants. He can attempt to force his
                            victim’s Doors, but it’s a high-risk method. Forcing Doors is
                            a sure-fire way for a character to burn bridges and leave lies
                            and mistrust in his wake.

                            To force a victim’s Doors, state your goal and your approach.
                            Make a roll for your approach as you would to open
                            a Door normally, but apply the current number of closed
                            Doors as a penalty to the roll. If you succeed, you open all
                            your victim’s Doors. If you fail, your victim won’t ever trust
                            you again; you can’t use Social maneuvering against her again.


                            To be blunt, this sucks.

                            It also leads to the ridiculous situation that someone you've failed to Force Doors on in the past is now immune to even the possibility of being convinced to give you $5 even if you're holding a gun to their head. Because that's still social maneuvering, which they are immune to.
                            Last edited by lnodiv; 05-25-2016, 01:29 PM.

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                            • #29
                              House Rule I've made because I like Charlaquin's idea of using 'Forcing Doors' to represent simple social actions, but I think the penalty for failure is far too high to actually use them to replace simple social actions entirely:

                              Pressing Action

                              These rules entirely replace the rules for 'Forcing Doors'

                              When you need immediate results in a social situation, you can press the target for action. To Press Action, state your goal and your approach. Make a roll for your approach as you would to open a Door normally, but apply the current number of closed Doors as a penalty to the roll, in addition to applying the target's appropriate resistance or making a contested roll.

                              Dramatic Failure: The target won’t ever trust you again; you can’t use any form Social maneuvering (barring the use of Hard Leverage) against her again.
                              Failure: The Social Maneuvering attempt fails. No further attempts can be made regarding this objective unless you utilize Hard Leverage. Reduce the target's impression by one step, and all future Social maneuvering attempts start with one additional Door.
                              Success: All of the target's Doors are opened - but future Social Maneuvering attempts start with one additional Door, as you've pushed the target outside of their comfort zone.
                              Exceptional Success: All of the target's Doors are opened, and future Social Maneuvering attempts suffer no penalty.

                              Hard Leverage can be used when pressing the target for action as normal. However, a simple failure bars all future attempts at Social Maneuvering, excepting further uses of Hard Leverage. Even Hard Leverage can't be used to pursue this objective with this target again
                              Last edited by lnodiv; 05-25-2016, 02:07 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Let me just throw this out there. Forget about Social Maneuvering for a second and just focus on how social interactions actually play out at your table. What happens when a PC fails an attemp to get an NPC to do something? Do you let them try again in the same scene? How often, after failing at such an attempt, do the PCs actually try to convince that same NPC to do something in a later scene?


                                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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