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Help me with Social Maneuvering

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  • DarthMRN
    started a topic Help me with Social Maneuvering

    Help me with Social Maneuvering

    Okay, as best I can understand the system, you are locked into the time per roll associated with your Impression level, regardless of in-game events after the roll is made.

    Say you make a poor first impression, insulting the target for average Impresson level. When you next try to coerce them, you then lock yourself into a whole week of manoeuvering no matter what happenes later on. Maybe the next day you save the target's life, which would create perfect Impression instead, but cause of everything hinging on the First Impression, you are stuck sucking up to the guy for a whole 6 more days. After which he immediately starts listening to your every word, almost as by magic.

    Seems stupid.

    Now, I guess the ST can just fudge things and let the impression level immediately upgrade, but that doesn't solve anything mechanically. Does that first week-long roll end and need to be restarted? What if half a week passed before the Impression level upgraded? Do those three days of sucking up count as a retroactive success now that you can make them more often? What happens to this "ghost progress" made by spending several days buttering up the target before the roll got to be made?

    I can't quite wrap my head around how changes in Impression level are supposed to work with the actual maneuvering process. Anyone with more practical experience wanna tell me how they solved this stuff?

  • Basilistik
    replied
    DarthRMN,

    There are some things that we need to clarify, this is of course my interpretation but I believe its correct:

    Basically, there are two important actions considering Social Maneuvering. One is opening doors and the other is increasing your impression. You can always increase your impression even if your current impression is Hostile. And whenever you change your current impression you can immediately try to open a door or else you couldn't try it on your first impression. Now, on the topic of impressions, its important to notice tha when it has reached Hostile, you cannot try to open doors normally, only by forcing them. Although the chart says you cannot roll, this refers to ordinary attempts to open doors, not Forcing Doors, or changing impressions. There is a text on the first impressions sections that says so regarding forcing doors but i suck working on my phone so please look for it if you need too see it.

    The second thing is opening doors, and Forcing Doors. Opening Doors normally doesn't have much to it. It's Forcing Doors that gets misunderstood.

    First I like to clarify that using hard leverage is forcing doors. Therefore if you used hard leverage, you used forcing doors. In the resolution section on the social manuvering part of the text says, that after attempting and failing at social maneuvering using hard leverage, your next time you'll have to add 2 doors. That is to say you can have a next attempt even when failing at forcing doors.

    The discord in all this is a sentence in the forcing doors section that says: If you fail, your victim won't ever trust you again; you can't use Social maneuvering against her again. It would seem that there is a contradiction, on one part it says that you can't attempt more social maneuvering after failing Forcing Doors, and in the other ssyd you can and you only need to start again adding couple of doors. The problem with that sentence its that it does not express itself in game mechanics. The first part of that sentece says that if you fail, your victim won't trust you, that is yo say you reach a hostile impression. The second part comes after a semicolon, signifying a sort of further explanation to the first part: you failed at social maneuvering, your impression is hostile, all doors are reset, you cannot attempt to open doors normally because of the hostile impression, you need to start again.

    That is my interpretation of this apparently contradicting sentences. You may not agree with my interpretation of this sentence, but either way, the contradiction between this sentence and the one on the resolution section in the vampire requiem 2e book would remain, meaning one would have to be wrong. The second one appears to have more attachments to difrrent parts of the system making it more likely to be the correct one. Sorry for not cuoting directly, still new to my cell and the forum mechanics.

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  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    You're right that this is a non-issue for non-recurring NPCs.

    Most of the games I run and play in have a wide cast of NPCs that are around pretty frequently, and in a position for the players to want something from them more than once. This is especially true in my Vampire and Werewolf games.
    So, these are the kind of characters it's worth the effort to get an excellent or perfect impression with.

    Leave a comment:


  • lnodiv
    replied
    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    Let me just throw this out there. Forget about Social Maneuvering for a second and just focus on how social interactions actually play out at your table. What happens when a PC fails an attemp to get an NPC to do something? Do you let them try again in the same scene? How often, after failing at such an attempt, do the PCs actually try to convince that same NPC to do something in a later scene?
    You're right that this is a non-issue for non-recurring NPCs.

    Most of the games I run and play in have a wide cast of NPCs that are around pretty frequently, and in a position for the players to want something from them more than once. This is especially true in my Vampire and Werewolf games.

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Let me just throw this out there. Forget about Social Maneuvering for a second and just focus on how social interactions actually play out at your table. What happens when a PC fails an attemp to get an NPC to do something? Do you let them try again in the same scene? How often, after failing at such an attempt, do the PCs actually try to convince that same NPC to do something in a later scene?

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  • lnodiv
    replied
    House Rule I've made because I like Charlaquin's idea of using 'Forcing Doors' to represent simple social actions, but I think the penalty for failure is far too high to actually use them to replace simple social actions entirely:

    Pressing Action

    These rules entirely replace the rules for 'Forcing Doors'

    When you need immediate results in a social situation, you can press the target for action. To Press Action, state your goal and your approach. Make a roll for your approach as you would to open a Door normally, but apply the current number of closed Doors as a penalty to the roll, in addition to applying the target's appropriate resistance or making a contested roll.

    Dramatic Failure: The target won’t ever trust you again; you can’t use any form Social maneuvering (barring the use of Hard Leverage) against her again.
    Failure: The Social Maneuvering attempt fails. No further attempts can be made regarding this objective unless you utilize Hard Leverage. Reduce the target's impression by one step, and all future Social maneuvering attempts start with one additional Door.
    Success: All of the target's Doors are opened - but future Social Maneuvering attempts start with one additional Door, as you've pushed the target outside of their comfort zone.
    Exceptional Success: All of the target's Doors are opened, and future Social Maneuvering attempts suffer no penalty.

    Hard Leverage can be used when pressing the target for action as normal. However, a simple failure bars all future attempts at Social Maneuvering, excepting further uses of Hard Leverage. Even Hard Leverage can't be used to pursue this objective with this target again
    Last edited by lnodiv; 05-25-2016, 02:07 PM.

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  • lnodiv
    replied
    Sorry for the necro, but further reading on these rules seems to lead to the inescapable conclusion that Darth was totally right in that 'Forcing Doors' does, irrevocably, prevent any further attempts at any Social Maneuvering for any purpose if failed

    From 2E Werewolf:

    FORCING DOORS
    Sometimes, subtlety just won’t cut it. A character needs
    something right now, and will do anything to persuade his
    victim to do what he wants. He can attempt to force his
    victim’s Doors, but it’s a high-risk method. Forcing Doors is
    a sure-fire way for a character to burn bridges and leave lies
    and mistrust in his wake.

    To force a victim’s Doors, state your goal and your approach.
    Make a roll for your approach as you would to open
    a Door normally, but apply the current number of closed
    Doors as a penalty to the roll. If you succeed, you open all
    your victim’s Doors. If you fail, your victim won’t ever trust
    you again; you can’t use Social maneuvering against her again.


    To be blunt, this sucks.

    It also leads to the ridiculous situation that someone you've failed to Force Doors on in the past is now immune to even the possibility of being convinced to give you $5 even if you're holding a gun to their head. Because that's still social maneuvering, which they are immune to.
    Last edited by lnodiv; 05-25-2016, 01:29 PM.

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  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    Yeah. If you work with the understanding that people like Charlaquin or I have come to about social maneuvering, Hostile impression is less "I can't convince someone to do something at all" and more "I can't make it easier for myself by buttering them up, it's go big or go home."

    Forcing Doors with a hostile impression is the stuff of movies and TV where the protagonist is like "Look, you don't like me and I don't like you, but..." and so on.

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  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

    Uratha are great Social Maneuvering teachers.

    How would penalties work for Forcing the Doors at Hostile works?
    Same as it does at any other Impression level - equal to the Mark's remaining Doors.

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  • WHW
    replied
    Penalty equal to number of remaining doors.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
    But, as an interesting note, you can still Force Doors, even at hostile impression. I learned this from the Werewolf 2e core, it's one of the ways Uratha deal with Spirits, a lot of whom don't see them in a friendly fashion.
    Uratha are great Social Maneuvering teachers.

    How would penalties work for Forcing the Doors at Hostile works?

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  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    But, as an interesting note, you can still Force Doors, even at hostile impression. I learned this from the Werewolf 2e core, it's one of the ways Uratha deal with Spirits, a lot of whom don't see them in a friendly fashion.

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  • Xenesis
    replied
    Originally posted by DarthMRN View Post
    What is your point, even? That nothing a character does could piss off an NPC so bad they refuse to deal with her? That is the reading of the rules you want to go with?
    No, that's what the impressions ranking is for.

    Once you get to hostile you can't even roll.

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  • DarthMRN
    replied
    Thanks, Leet.


    Neither the passage you quote, nor the "or" therein lends any support to your position that I can see, Xenesis. All that says is how a previous attempt at maneuvering and how well it went will impact on later efforts with that character. To represent familiarity or resentfulness, respectively, as one would expect. Neither of which will have any meaning if the character refuses to deal with you at all, as per the passage quoted on the last page.
    What is your point, even? That nothing a character does could piss off an NPC so bad they refuse to deal with her? That is the reading of the rules you want to go with?


    You don't need to worry about my system needs, Inodiv. I've been using Storytelling since 2004, and been fan-modding it for all that time. It serves my purposes far better than D&D does, let me assure you. I'm sometimes baffled by what I would do if it weren't for certain ways the Storytelling mechanics fit toghether, in fact.

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  • amechra
    replied
    Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
    I disagree. Not even D20 systems handle RAW tunnel vision very well. If you take RAW without concern for RAI then you're going to be playing with a pretty busted system regardless of what game you're playing.
    Yep - don't let people on D&D forums fool you; that's like looking at people who make elaborate sculptures out of peanut butter and going "well, I guess peanut butter is supposed to be a sculpting material".

    Every time I've played or been in a d20 game, there was a lot of RAI and straight up "let's just roll for it", which it does pretty well.

    It's not World of Synnibar, where houserules are literally against the actual rules of the game.

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