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  • 'Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane.'

    It's pretty clear people read and do what they want from this, but it certainly appears like you can't just use Numina to, say, blast mortals from Twilight. That said there's a couple that require you to be in Twilight (and based on this you can probably figure out that a few Numina can be used from Twilight on the real world, while most can't).

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    • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      Twilight Form is treated as a Manifestation unless you presuppose a definition for the word Manifestation (such as its 1e definition), rather than defining it based on what Manifestations actually do in 2e. Twilight Form, Gauntlet Breach, Reaching, Fetter, Claim, and Gate are all Manifestations. What these powers have in common is that they are all either means of entering the material or ways of existing within the material. So, in second edition, at least, Manifested does seem to mean “existing in the material world.”

      Reaching would seem to be an exception to this definition, but again, only if we presuppose its 1e definition. Keeping in mind that in 2e, Reaching is also the thing werewolves do to cross the gauntlet (as opposed to stepping sideways), and there are no actual rules mechanisms by which a spirit can cross the Gauntlet at Locus in 2e, but they are automatically considered Reaching, and the fact that a Reaching spirit in 2e can perceive the other side of the Gauntlet and affect it with its Numena and other Manifestations, it would seem that Reaching in 2e is in fact a means of existing partly on both sides.

      Again, I would argue that an ephemeral entity in the material world is by definition manifested. An unmaterialized entity can use any of its powers that don’t require touch, an invisible entity can use any of its powers that don’t require it to be seen, etc. Basically, assume an entity can use a power to affect the world it currently exists in, unless that power requires the entity to interact with the world in a way that it can’t do in its current Manifestation.
      I actually don't know how Manifestations worked in 1e. I'm talking about every time the 2e books uses the word "Manifest" (and inflections) except in the Manifestations list.

      Inside the spoiler is a list of the majority of times the word "Manifest" appears in the Chronicles of Darkness book (when referring to ephemerals) "Manifest" almost always excludes Twilight Form, and sometimes appear to only refer to Materialize (and maybe Claim). This is what I mean when I say that the book never treats Twilight Form as a Manifestation.


      "Almost every ephemeral being has the ability to Manifest, to make its presence known and affect the physical world, in ways ranging from remaining invisible but using powers, to appearing as insubstantial but visible images, to possessing a victim, sending his soul into hibernation and warping his body to suit their own uses."

      Here Manifest is refered to as an ability, which excludes Twilight Form which is the default form.


      "Some are more skilled at it than others (those so weak they can’t Manifest at all are essentially impotent and don’t interact with humans), but all require certain appropriate conditions before they can use these powers."

      Here the book refers to ephemerals that can't Manifest, despite Twilight Form being a universal Manifestation for all ephemerals. The book also says that Manifestations requires Manifestation Conditions, which also excludes Twilight Form as it requires no Manifestation Condition.


      "An ephemeral being wanting to shift into physical form or inhabit an object, animal or person requires the area, item or character it is Manifesting into to have been prepared for its arrival. Ghosts require Anchors — places, objects and people that are linked to their living days and reinforce their failing identities. Angels can only appear in the world when enough Infrastructure has been laid out by the God-Machine. Spirits need the emotional resonance of the area or victim-host to match their own. The more powerful the Manifestation, the stronger the Condition needed. The most powerful physical forms and tightly-held victims are the result of careful husbandry by the Manifesting being, slowly building up the necessary Condition by leveraging whatever Manifestation they can produce at first. "

      This is a continuation of the above sentence.


      "The majority of ghosts are poor at influencing the world, trapped in their insubstantial state and unable to even Manifest, [..]"

      Another reference to ephemerals (ghosts) lacking Manifestations despite all ghosts having Twilight Form.


      "Ghosts are drawn to places and people that they had emotional connections to in life — these anchor the ghost in the world and allow those with enough power to Manifest, whereupon they carry out whatever mad urges they still feel and attempt, in their broken state, to further the goals they left undone in life. "

      Another exclusion of Twilight Form as a Manifestation similar to above.


      "The State of Twilight
      Unless they Manifest or use a power to appear, ephemeral beings remain in their insubstantial state when in the material world. This state is described as “Twilight.”"

      Here we have the most obvious and explicit exclusion of Twilight Form as a Manifestation yet. The book straight up says that when the ephemerals don't Manifest they instead are in Twilight Form.


      "Touching the bane while in Twilight causes a point of lethal damage per turn to non-Manifested entities."

      "If the bane has been used as a weapon against the entity, the wounds suffered are aggravated for Manifest entities and lethal for entities still in Twilight."

      Two more exclusions of Twilight Form being a Manifestation as being in Twilight explicitly not being Manifested.
      This is also one of the times Manifested might not only exclude Twilight Form, as much as it just refers to Materialized and Claimed, since most Manifestations (Fettered, Possessed) explicitly leaves the entity still in Twilight.


      "Physical attacks on a Manifested entity that would normally cause lethal damage only cause bashing damage unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane. Despite appearing to the naked eye and being solid, a Manifested spirit, ghost, or angel doesn’t have any internal organs to injure."

      Same thing here. I'm pretty sure they mean Materialized and Claimed since that's the only Manifestations were the ephemeral becomes solid.


      "All Manifestation Effects require a Power + Finesse roll to use. "


      "It can attempt to Fetter itself to the subject of the Condition, or, if the Condition is on a location, Manifest."

      From the Open Condition. Here Manifest can only refer to Materialize since both Possess and Fetter requires a subject.

      Except Twilight Form, of course.
      Last edited by Tessie; 02-01-2018, 12:37 PM.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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      • Originally posted by nofather View Post
        'Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane.'

        It's pretty clear people read and do what they want from this, but it certainly appears like you can't just use Numina to, say, blast mortals from Twilight. That said there's a couple that require you to be in Twilight (and based on this you can probably figure out that a few Numina can be used from Twilight on the real world, while most can't).
        It’s debatable whether use of the Blast Numen constitutes an “attack” in the sense that the word is being used here. However, if we make the reasonable assumption that it does, it’s still arguable that Blast requires touch, and therefore requires Materialization.


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        • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

          I actually don't know how Manifestations worked in 1e. I'm talking about every time the 2e books uses the word "Manifest" (and inflections) except in the Manifestations list.

          Inside the spoiler is a list of the majority of times the word "Manifest" appears in the Chronicles of Darkness book (when referring to ephemerals) "Manifest" almost always excludes Twilight Form, and sometimes appear to only refer to Materialize (and maybe Claim). This is what I mean when I say that the book never treats Twilight Form as a Manifestation.
          Fair enough. Though, I would point out that those uses seem inconsistent. Some of them seem to refer to any means of existing within the material world, others seem to refer to any state of existence other than Twilight, some seem to refer only to Materialization and Claiming, etc. This is likely due in part to the use of natural language, in part to the writing process involving multiple drafts in which Manifestation may have had slightly different meanings, and in part due to the author’s preexisting notions of Manifestation carrying over from 1e. I would still argue that, based on what Manifestations actually are and what they do within the rules, the most technically accurate definition of the word, “Manifestation” is, “Means of entering the material world or way of existing within it.”
          From that, we can extrapolate that the most technically accurate definition of, “Manifested” is, “existing within the material world.”


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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          • This is not a counterargument since it's probably just a mistake. It's just a small curiosity I'd like to add.
            Goetia from Mage doesn't naturally have any Manifestations. By RAW that would include Twilight Form, despite there being an Attainment primarily for seeing and interacting with Goetia in Twilight.


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            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              This is not a counterargument since it's probably just a mistake. It's just a small curiosity I'd like to add.
              Goetia from Mage doesn't naturally have any Manifestations. By RAW that would include Twilight Form, despite there being an Attainment primarily for seeing and interacting with Goetia in Twilight.
              Yeah, Goetia don’t normally exist in the physical world and therefore don’t normally need Manifestations. It takes magic to allow them to do so, and IIRC, there are a handful of spells that grant Manifestations to ephemeral entities. One would have to do this to a Goetia to give it Twilight Form or something to allow it to exist in the material. I’m pretty sure this is actually working as intended, and further supports the notion that Manifestation = means of existing within the material world.
              Last edited by Charlaquin; 02-01-2018, 04:06 PM.


              Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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              • Except Summon Goetia doesn't at all mention that it grants the Twilight Form Manifestation. In fact, it only mentions Materialized, which requires Death or Spirit, as they are the principal Arcana for granting Manifestations. The only two Manifestations explicitly possible through Mind is Familiar and Possession.


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                • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  Except Summon Goetia doesn't at all mention that it grants the Twilight Form Manifestation. In fact, it only mentions Materialized, which requires Death or Spirit, as they are the principal Arcana for granting Manifestations. The only two Manifestations explicitly possible through Mind is Familiar and Possession.
                  I should clarify - I think the mistake is in the handful of Mind spells that bring Goetia or other entities into Mind-resonant Twilight neglecting to mention that they grant those entities the Twilight Form Manifestation, not in Goetia lacking Twilight Form naturally.
                  Last edited by Charlaquin; 02-01-2018, 04:34 PM.


                  Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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                  • What happens when you take something (clothes, weapons) from an ephemeral entity? Are they considered a 'part' of the entity that couldn't be removed? Spirits have a Panalopy, which implies they can get special weapons, can those be taken? And if so, what happens to them if you enter the real world with them?
                    Last edited by nofather; 02-04-2018, 05:57 AM.

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                    • Where is this Panalopy stuff described in?

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                      • Originally posted by Malus View Post
                        Where is this Panalopy stuff described in?
                        I think it's a first edition thing, but the ephemeral entities rules in second edition says that spirits can have weapons and Stalwart allows for them to be armored.
                        Last edited by nofather; 02-04-2018, 07:11 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          I think it's a first edition thing
                          The only instances of the word "panoply" I can find in my 1e PDFs are all in normal sentences talking about the breadth of options a given being has access to within a particular subset of things like relics or senses. Gods in Exalted have Panoply Charms, but to my recollection there has not been a Werewolf: the Forsaken book which covered the equipment of spirits as a special thing.

                          There's a bit of chapter fiction in Geist 1e that implies the coat a ghost was wearing when they drowned is part of its Corpus, but otherwise nothing comes to mind as having specifically addressed the subject.


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                          • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                            What happens when you take something (clothes, weapons) from an ephemeral entity? Are they considered a 'part' of the entity that couldn't be removed? Spirits have a Panalopy, which implies they can get special weapons, can those be taken? And if so, what happens to them if you enter the real world with them?
                            Maybe it’s like cutting off a lock of hair, or nicking off a scale. A part of the spirit that can be removed without much damage. It’ll be still made of ephemera, so it’ll be of limited use.


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                            • That does lead to a related question. I once made a ghost whose Blast manifested as a burst from a ghostly M-16. Could someone also in Ghost-Frequency Twilight grab said gun and use that Blast power?

                              Also, is there any way ephemerals, especially spirits, can have their Rank permanently degrade, barring Supernal Magic or Werewolf Rites?


                              A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                              • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                                That does lead to a related question. I once made a ghost whose Blast manifested as a burst from a ghostly M-16. Could someone also in Ghost-Frequency Twilight grab said gun and use that Blast power?

                                Also, is there any way ephemerals, especially spirits, can have their Rank permanently degrade, barring Supernal Magic or Werewolf Rites?
                                Either the gun is just a manifestation of the blast numina so only appears as a m-16 when he uses it and you cant steal it from the ghost, or the gun is a seperate item that the ghost makes his blast numina appear from. Even if you steal the gun you wont get access to the blast numina, you'll just have a ghost m-16. The ghost then probably has to think of another way for his blast numina to manifest..

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