Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

​Inferno 2E based on Integrity

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ​Inferno 2E based on Integrity

    I initially presented my ideas for Inferno rulebook update to 2E in this topic. This discussion is dedicated to a specific mechanics I envision. If you do not agree with my assumptions - better to not writing in it and go somewhere else.

    You stayed? Okay, here is rough draft. I took idea on Conditions and demon evolution from Charlaquin post in original topic.

    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    • Hearing Whispers is a Persistent Condition that characters can gain instead of the normal Persistent Conditions for Dramatically Failing an Integrity Breaking Point if that Breaking Point played into their Vice.
    • When a character with the Hearing Whispers Condition interacts with an ephemeral entity via the "Interactions with Mortals" or targets one with a supernatural power, there is a chance the mortal will lose the Condition and transfer it to the ephemeral entity.
    Truth about Inferno

    Hell is dimension outside of normal reality that mages describe as one of Lower Depths. It’s fueled by Sin – that in mechanics way is understood as Vice related Breaking Points, in which act of Breaking Point marks ‘wickedness’. What’s interesting, Breaking Points do not need to stir from humans Integrity – Humanity, Harmony or Wisdom are all good food for Inferno demons. Hell’s servants feed on depraving and breaking people – supernatural or normal.

    Demons spread by Sin – when someone is under Breaking Point based on Vice, he can start to hear Whisperer instead of other Dramatic Failure effects on roll. He get’s Hearing Whisperer Condition (see below).

    Diaboli are created by Ephemeral Beings interactions with Whisperers in others – or by some vile ways of Inferno entering our world itself. Some say that really wicked ghosts can become Larvals or that Sin polluted spirits can transform in to Immundi. Astral Realms are hosting Deceptors from goetia of those people that were infected with Whisperers. Supposedly there are other methods to corrupt ephemeral beings.

    Hearing Whisperer ( Persistent, Vice )
    Your character is hearing from time to time little voice in his head that leads him to commit sins. By listening to those thoughts, she can rebuild her Willpower. Character acts as having second Vice decided when acquiring this Condition. If Vice of Whisperer is the same as characters original, it get’s her two Willpower points instead of one when fulfilling it. However, real reward is in breaking Integrity ( or it’s equivalent ) in light of Sins – if character leads to or is under Breaking Point based on the Vice of Whisperer, she regains number of Willpower points equal to cumulative negative penalties of the act.

    Resolution: Exorcism of Whisperer. Mental therapy. Passing Whisperer to Ephemeral Being by contact with it as per Mortal Interactions rules in CoD Rulebook.

    Beat: Your character chooses to make act leading to Breaking Point based on Vice. Confronting Ephemeral Being to pass the Whisperer to it.

    Inferno Demon Template

    All Hell’s demons are previous Ephemeral Beings of other kinds – ghosts, spirits or goetia. ( Other beings maybe also be remade in to demons. ) Being then get’s Inferno Demon Template on top of it’s original one, so Larvals are still and work under rules as ghosts with Inferno Demon Template.

    New traits and rules for Inferno Demon:
    • Being get’s Vice trait, even if not having it previously. This Vice works as one for the ghosts. If it did have other Vice before, Vice is switched to the one coming from transformation in to Hell’s demon.
    • Being get’s new Influence based on it’s Vice nature, called by demonologist as Key. This Key starts at Beings now Rank.
    • If Being have Integrity score or it’s equivalent – she lose it in transformation.
    • Being new ways of generating Essence is making acts of Sin. She does not need to do it oneself. It’s even advisable that others should do those action in her place. If she makes acts of Sin, she get’s back her Rank in Essence. If she make other character to do those, she also get’s bonus Essence points in number of negative penalties character got on her Breaking Points roll.
    So what do you think about those rules? Did I miss something important?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-30-2016, 11:07 AM.


    LGBT+ in CoD games
    Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
    Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
    Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
    My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

  • #2
    Does it matter what Vice is exercised to cause a character to Hear Whispers? 2e CofD introduces the possibility for characters to exhibit Vices that one would describe as character flaws or weaknesses more than as tendencies towards sinful behavior, like Fickle, Naive, or Territorial. Some characters, like the Unchained, are even suggested to occasionally exhibit Vices other characters would normally regard as positive qualities, like Charitable, Cheerful, or Punctual. What matters more, in other words, in terms of inviting a whisperer: the external harm of the action, or the internal weakness it evokes?

    You mention that human Integrity isn't the only corresponding trait that can feed the Inferno when jarred in accordance with Vice, but some of the other corresponding traits are very different in how they work, or possessed by characters who don't have Vices. Can the Kindred invite whisperers when their Humanity detaches as a result of their Mask or Dirge? If a werewolf's breaking points can feed an infernal demon, does it matter whether the breaking point is towards flesh or spirit, whether it is moving towards the extremes of the meter or back towards the center, or whether it resonates with the werewolf's Blood or Bone? What about an Unchained's Cover, which is jarred by their lies of identity unravelling or their shows of power, or a Beast's Satiety, which waxes and wanes as they feed predatory hungers and digest fear for bursts of strength?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
      Does it matter what Vice is exercised to cause a character to Hear Whispers? 2e CofD introduces the possibility for characters to exhibit Vices that one would describe as character flaws or weaknesses more than as tendencies towards sinful behavior, like Fickle, Naive, or Territorial. Some characters, like the Unchained, are even suggested to occasionally exhibit Vices other characters would normally regard as positive qualities, like Charitable, Cheerful, or Punctual. What matters more, in other words, in terms of inviting a whisperer: the external harm of the action, or the internal weakness it evokes?
      I could see demons of weaknesses instead of sinfulness. Something like a (vague, bastardized) Jungian Shadow. A "Demon" of cheerfulness who blinds mortals to the suffering around them, or one of Punctuality who agitates people to self-destructive acts of impatience, or a Demon who pushes a person's Charitable nature until they work themselves to the bone for others.


      Genius: the Transgression 2E is a thing that's being worked on.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
        What matters more, in other words, in terms of inviting a whisperer: the external harm of the action, or the internal weakness it evokes?
        Rather first than second - I can see weird Inferno demons based on positieve aspects, gone to extreme. It will be near non-canon as the book say ( there are no demons based on Virtues ) but untill you make shock of Breaking Points and harmful others actions inside your 'quasi-positive' Key, I think it can work with Hell as written.

        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
        Can the Kindred invite whisperers when their Humanity detaches as a result of their Mask or Dirge?
        From what I know Dirge is Vice equivalent in vampires, so can see demon working on that angle.

        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
        If a werewolf's breaking points can feed an infernal demon, does it matter whether the breaking point is towards flesh or spirit, whether it is moving towards the extremes of the meter or back towards the center, or whether it resonates with the werewolf's Blood or Bone?
        I do not think it should - werewolves are this way great victims of Malejin's servants that can easily shift to lower depths of Harmony - on both ends. Malejin, as once spirits, just like more when their Bale Hounds work to spirit extreme - but mechanically I could see interesting scenario in demon leading wolf to Flesh end, to make him massacre sentyment he is. Cool would be idea that irrelevant is that extreme is Flesh or Spirit - the 'extremis' Inferno is feeding on is based on how imbalanced werewolves are - most Essence would be from leading character to Harmony 0 or Harmony 10. Werewolves Vice equivalent is Blood, so it would work with it better.

        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
        What about an Unchained's Cover, which is jarred by their lies of identity unravelling or their shows of power, or a Beast's Satiety, which waxes and wanes as they feed predatory hungers and digest fear for bursts of strength?
        On Unchained I do not know enough to make judgment - but could be work that they do not generate fuel for Inferno as both groups are 'demons'.

        As to Beasts - I could see Hell's demons trying to make Beasts more and more Hungry - or that they Hunger should stay longer. It can also be possible that Inferno just left them alone - Beasts are closest to Hell's servants in flesh, in the end.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-29-2016, 06:31 PM.


        LGBT+ in CoD games
        Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
        Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
        Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
        My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          From what I know Dirge is Vice equivalent in vampires, so can see demon working on that angle.
          Not really, I'd argue. The four sets of inhuman Anchors we've seen or had previewed so far (vampires' Mask and Dirge, werewolves' Blood and Bone, beasts' Life and Legend, and changelings' Mask and Mien) follow a general trend that's closer in theme to oWoD's Nature and Demeanor, or the Masquerade and Requiem hack in The Danse Macabre. Rather than an aspirational drive that's taxing but rewarding and a weakness or fault that's easy to fall prey to and provides small comforts, each is a pair of traits that seems to reflect the human seeming, reason, mortal relationships and responsibilities (Mask, Mask, Life and Bone), and the monstrous self, secrets, instinct, mysticism and occult needs (Dirge, Mien, Legend and Blood).* Both traits in each pair can be used in either way, that is to say, a taxing but rewarding effort and a natural impulse that provides small comforts. They're not generally associated with one being better or worse than the other; they're just your two halves, though one half does tend to be less human than the other. Most notably, these games generally provide the same set of descriptors as appropriate choices for either Anchor; a vampire with Penitent and Survivor as Anchors could just as easily have them as Mask and Dirge as they could as Dirge and Mask, respectively.

          * That's a generalization, and each pair has different emphases and varies in little ways. For instance, a vampire's Dirge is more about the inner self than instinct or the vampiric Beast, and a werewolf's Bone is more about their higher faculties and reason in general than specifically human or mortal concerns. It's a broad trend, though.
          Last edited by Stupid Loserman; 06-29-2016, 07:37 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post

            Not really, I'd argue. The four sets of inhuman Anchors we've seen or had previewed so far (vampires' Mask and Dirge, werewolves' Blood and Bone, beasts' Life and Legend, and changelings' Mask and Mien) follow a general trend that's closer in theme to oWoD's Nature and Demeanor, or the Masquerade and Requiem hack in The Danse Macabre. Rather than an aspirational drive that's taxing but rewarding and a weakness or fault that's easy to fall prey to and provides small comforts, each is a pair of traits that seems to reflect the human seeming, reason, mortal relationships and responsibilities (Mask, Mask, Life and Bone), and the monstrous self, secrets, instinct, mysticism and occult needs (Dirge, Mien, Legend and Blood).* Both traits in each pair can be used in either way, that is to say, a taxing but rewarding effort and a natural impulse that provides small comforts. They're not generally associated with one being better or worse than the other; they're just your two halves, though one half does tend to be less human than the other. Most notably, these games generally provide the same set of descriptors as appropriate choices for either Anchor; a vampire with Penitent and Survivor as Anchors could just as easily have them as Mask and Dirge as they could as Dirge and Mask, respectively.

            * That's a generalization, and each pair has different emphases and varies in little ways. For instance, a vampire's Dirge is more about the inner self than instinct or the vampiric Beast, and a werewolf's Bone is more about their higher faculties and reason in general than specifically human or mortal concerns. It's a broad trend, though.
            Right. I think it'd be valid to limit the demon's ability to benefit from sin to beings with Integrity (and sometime sufficiently similar traits, like certain breaks in Wisdom).


            Genius: the Transgression 2E is a thing that's being worked on.

            Comment


            • #7
              Or let Inferno demons just grant extra Vice, as third Anchor for you - Bale Hounds in Werewolf are all about embracing 'humans way' and getting Vice in that way. The same could be said about Belial Brood in Vampire and other races with 'monstrous archetypes'.

              ( Even when I see Dirge, Blood and Legend still as rough Vice equivalent - but it's digression. )

              We can freely stick with that Whisperer always grant you third Anchor as Vice ( or strengthening existing ones ) - every human will automaticlly work with that and supernaturals will just get third Anchor, 'remembering their humanity'.


              LGBT+ in CoD games
              Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
              Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
              Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
              My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                Or let Inferno demons just grant extra Vice, as third Anchor for you - Bale Hounds in Werewolf are all about embracing 'humans way' and getting Vice in that way. The same could be said about Belial Brood in Vampire and other races with 'monstrous archetypes'.
                Actually Bale Hounds are more about becoming spirits. And Belial's Brood about abandoning humanity altogether to touch the Adversary.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nofather View Post
                  Actually Bale Hounds are more about becoming spirits. And Belial's Brood about abandoning humanity altogether to touch the Adversary.
                  Spirits of Vice - and Adversary that represent Vices ( Hello, Demon Princess from Inferno book ). Still granting extra Vice Anchors have sense.


                  LGBT+ in CoD games
                  Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                  Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                  Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                  My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wyrd, I really like your Hearing Whisperer Condition. It's mechanically simpler than mine but still encourages the subject to indulge in their Vice and Breaking Points in a suitably unobtrusive way. Very nicely done.

                    EDIT: If it's alright with you, I think I'm going to incorporate some of these ideas into my version.
                    Last edited by Charlaquin; 06-30-2016, 10:03 AM.


                    Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                    My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      Wyrd, I really like your Hearing Whisperer Condition. It's mechanically simpler than mine but still encourages the subject to indulge in their Vice and Breaking Points in a suitably unobtrusive way. Very nicely done.
                      Thanks.

                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      EDIT: If it's alright with you, I think I'm going to incorporate some of these ideas into my version.
                      Help yourself.


                      LGBT+ in CoD games
                      Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                      Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                      Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                      My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hm. Idea I had that was Inferno related. It was for a group (more like a Hunter Conspiracy, but not necessarily Hunters).

                        Basically, they had a ritual that would "trick" demons, and bind them to "sleep" during possession.

                        General Idea:
                        1. Initiate/Celebrant performs the ritual to bind the demon.
                        2. Then they undergo a ceremony to invite a demon in.
                        3. Demon Possesses them (making them Possessed), but (likely) succumbs to the ritual and is put to "sleep".
                        4. The character is mostly Possessed, but the demon can't assume control, and they may (haven't decided yet) lack some of the traits and vulnerabilities.
                        5. The condition comes with caveats, though:
                        • Say the Ritual is rated as a Merit.
                          • The person cannot have more Vestments than rank in the merit. Otherwise the demon wakes up.
                          • The person must have at least that much Morality/Integrity. Otherwise the demon wakes up. [If the Ritual is not a merit, then the above cap is Integrity, and this line is meaningless]
                          • Vice (and in this thread's case, Breaking Points) that would "feed" the demon (give it Infernal Willpower points), continue to do so. If the Demon's pool is full, and it would gain a point, it wakes up.
                          • Spending Willpower on Vestments transfers it to the demon's Infernal Will* pool. See above regarding the demon waking up.
                          • Gaining a Virtue Willpower refresh reduces a sleeping demon's Infernal Willpower pool by 1 point.
                          • A relatively quick ritual of atonement can be performed once a day to spend 1 Willpower point to reduce the Infernal Willpower points by 1. [Mostly so the character isn't utterly screwed regarding Infernal Will gain/loss]
                          • If the Demon wakes up, the character is now one of the Possessed, as written. [Not sure if the Demon can be put back to sleep again, or SOL]
                        The idea was to support a risky use of demonic powers, without quite all the baggage of the Possessed. At least at first.

                        More vices? Risks the demon waking up from breaching the limit but it also has a larger Infernal Will pool to fill up (and you have more power in general).
                        Use willpower? Adds fuel for the demon but sometimes you just need the power.
                        Keep to Innate Vestments? Safer (see the risks of spending Willpower), but limits your abilities.

                        * I house rule the Infernal Will pool to be a bit larger than standard. It's 1 per dot in the Primary Vice, and another per 3 dots in other Vices. This caps it at 9 Willpower (when all 7 Vices are at 3)**.

                        ** I also houserule that the infernal has an effective Rank equal to Vice/4 (round up), jumping the demonic shark to Rank 6 at the full 21 Vice dots.


                        Another group idea I had (while editing this):

                        How feasible is it for an occultist to ritually bind demon's to themself as multiple familiars (such as in Mage 2E)? The Familiars get a beachhead in the world, and a supply of Essence, in exchange for service. The summoner gets demonic minions, in exchange for acts of sin/Vice necessary to feed said minions.
                        Last edited by Vent0; 06-30-2016, 05:28 PM.


                        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                          (Possessed Idea )
                          For now i miss this, as Possessed is all another problem with open Vice system in 2E...

                          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                          How feasible is it for an occultist to ritually bind demon's to themself as multiple familiars (such as in Mage 2E)? The Familiars get a beachhead in the world, and a supply of Essence, in exchange for service. The summoner gets demonic minions, in exchange for acts of sin/Vice necessary to feed said minions.
                          You would need multiple summoners as by RAW you may have only one Familiar per character? That's how Familiar Spell works - it binds you to one particular entity,


                          LGBT+ in CoD games
                          Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                          Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                          Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                          My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                            For now i miss this, as Possessed is all another problem with open Vice system in 2E...
                            Yeah. For that I'd keep to the 7, purely out of convenience.

                            I suppose a more freeform build-you-own Vestment system (with guidelines) would work better for the actual powers, but the Vices-as-power-stats thing would need to be greatly reworked.

                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            You would need multiple summoners as by RAW you may have only one Familiar per character? That's how Familiar Spell works - it binds you to one particular entity,
                            And you can't cast an maintain it multiple times? Well, they wouldn't be using the Familiar Mage spell, anyways, I'd think. Unless they were Mages, of course.


                            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Idea on topic of 2E Inferno I got today - Let's make demons Malepraxis by making Vice and Keys the ephemera's Influances that can be combined for particular effect. So demon with Vice Wrath 3 and Keys Swords 2 would have effective Influance 5 on generating Wrath with Swords. 😎


                              LGBT+ in CoD games
                              Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
                              Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
                              Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
                              My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X