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Deviant: the Renegades

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  • I really hope Deviant does a good job of balancing the presentation of Renegades and Loyalists. The fact that their Conviction and Loyalty are inverses of each other suggests to me that there's going to be a "grey vs. gray" view of them. That and the fact that we'll be getting a dedicated Loyalists book.

    The relationship (at least as it was initially presented) between Beasts and Heroes in BtP was one of the biggest problems I had with the game. To me, it was just a little too predictable and way too ham-fisted- oh, yeah, the PCs are monstrous, but at least least they aren't MRAs, am I right guys?! Rather than do something like, point out that both Beasts and Heroes are kind of stuck in roles they may not want to play, or show them as existing in a strange symbiosis- can a Beast and Hero be friends? Family? Lovers even?- it went with DiLP Beasts and Gaston Heroes.

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    • Without presuming too much, Dave doesn't seem to be a white and black kind of dude, and every PC wears a white cap, at least in terms of portraying characters. The Seers are one of the options for starting characters in Mage, for instance, and the Orders being a lesser evil doesn't mean they're the good guys.

      And I'd fully expect that, with the dangers he's posed Deviants as potentially being, you would be able to have Loyalists who are, while not doing the 'nice' thing, working to keep potential walking weapons of mass destruction off the streets.

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      • Originally posted by Perverseness View Post
        Any idea on when we will see Deviant hit the monday notes scheduling?

        When it's approved by White Wolf to begin writing, and it moves into first drafts.

        (Standard disclaimer: WWP are not sitting on a property. We haven't actually sent it to them yet)


        Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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        • So, as has been mentioned, one of the things that makes me different to Matt (apart from him being way more experienced at this malarky) is my insistence that antagonists who are twists on the player characters should be playable with a modicum of work. Matt prefers to keep things like Centimani as Storyteller characters, which is a stance I absolutely respect. And if I ever followed that advice, it would save me a lot of work.

          One of the things having two Integrity traits does for Deviant, in our early designs, is to play with our expectations from a Storytelling game. Werewolf, Mummy, Demon, and Promethean have all played around with it, but aside from Werewolf (and, I think maybe Changeling - not 100% sure what Clarity looks like now) there's a lot of "higher dots is good" mindset going on. And yeah - Deviants who run out of both traits are in for a short ride to flesh-cathedral land, but we have the opportunity on the mechanical/setting level to examine those assumptions. What does it look like, as a character, if the sheet has way more dots in Conviction than it does in Loyalty? Or the other way around? Conviction is the Renegades' "vice" trait - it powers them, but it's detrimental to their well-being. You can't be a revenge monster without collatoral damage. Loyalty is, to Renegades, a much "better" trait, and the game prototype has some attention paid to Renegades who manage to raise it above Conviction (they tend to go all Daredevil and dedicate themselves to something's protection). But the Deviants who have it as their leading Integrity stat? They're the *bad guys*. They're so Loyal they give that Loyalty to the Conspiracies.

          And because symmetry pleases me, we also have a thing where Loyalty-based Deviants can go on a Conviction bender to go all Agent Smith on someone who's bedevilled them until they declare themselves their personal nemesis. Like player characters, for example.

          But no, Renegades are the default player characters because they're fundamentally sympathetic - they had a terrible one very bad day, and the Conspiracy won't leave them alone - not because being so broken you can only relate to other human beings based on how much you hate them is a good or positive thing.


          Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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          • Something about the words "Flesh cathedral land" piques my curiosity with laser precision. Long live the new flesh?

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            • Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
              Something about the words "Flesh cathedral land" piques my curiosity with laser precision. Long live the new flesh?
              Not quite; it's an example Dave's used before in describing blowout:

              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              Something I said about it being possible to reenact the end of Akira as a Deviant blows out got picked up by readers as possibly meaning something like Demon's Going Loud, but to be clear - going backward is very, very hard in Deviant. You want to turn into a cathedral of flesh and consume neo-tokyo? the game will let you, but your character won't survive the experience.

              Accordingly, we will be devoting much design time and wordcount to how the game will handle replacing members of the chronicle's cast.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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              • Well, isn't that an interesting thingamajig.

                Is someone assembling a spoiler bible somewhere?

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                • Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                  Something about the words "Flesh cathedral land" piques my curiosity with laser precision. Long live the new flesh?
                  Isn't this referanace to old Vampire: The Masquerade clan of Tzimisce? They literally build cathedrals out of living flesh...



                  I do not suppose Dave mean here that vampires are making all the Deviant, but rather the aesthetics call out to those concepts. They are, in the end, very Cronenberg-like.
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-20-2017, 02:53 AM.


                  MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
                  WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
                  WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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                  • Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                    Well, isn't that an interesting thingamajig.

                    Is someone assembling a spoiler bible somewhere?
                    "Cathedral of flesh" refers to the anime film, Akira.

                    There was this What We Know thread: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-the-renegades

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                    • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                      Isn't this referanace to old Vampire: The Masquerade clan of Tzimisce? They literally build cathedrals out of living flesh...



                      I do not suppose Dave mean here that vampires are making all the Deviant, but rather the aesthetics call out to those concepts. They are, in the end, very Cronenberg-like.
                      No, it is most definitely an Arkia reference. Just... just watch it and you'll see.


                      CofD booklists:
                      Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mummy | Promethean

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                      • Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                        No, it is most definitely an Arkia reference. Just... just watch it and you'll see.
                        I watched twice, but years ago. I remember it as very too much gore for my tastes and would rather not watch it once again. Could you point me directly to scene with this 'Cathedral of flesh'?


                        MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
                        WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
                        WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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                        • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                          I watched twice, but years ago. I remember it as very too much gore for my tastes and would rather not watch it once again. Could you point me directly to scene with this 'Cathedral of flesh'?
                          Given your description, the part you hated the most. Kaneda and Tetsuo's showdown in the Olympic stadium once Tetsuo starters to lose control.


                          CofD booklists:
                          Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mummy | Promethean

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                          • Here, I think this is it. Warning, scenes of graphic violence, blood, death, mutation, etc. Also spoilers, as its at the end of the movie.

                            The specific scene starts at around 2:30.



                            I always thought it was a Global Frequency reference, personally, or Masquerade. I've only seen Akira once, and that was a long time ago. In Global Frequency one of the assets is called in to deal with a situation that turns out to be a medical facility that was experimenting with anesthetics, specifically using stem cells and psychotropics. The end result was not pretty, and as it was in gas form it was hard to avoid. He specifically called it out as a cathedral.

                            Last edited by nofather; 04-20-2017, 01:12 PM.

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                            • We all know Wolverine is Remade, but Logan is a great film to inspire that moment in the Deviant narrative where you go, "Now what? Do we just keep on fighting forever? Grow old and be forgotten?"

                              Everyone you've ever cared about is gone, and you're left alone with the last two people in the world you can call friends (okay, maybe just one of them are friends). You're isolated. Now your Scars are worsening because you've locked yourself out of the world, but the fighting's over.

                              No, just kidding. There's always a Conspiracy out there that wants you, even if they weren't your original makers. There's no rest for a Deviant.

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