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Deviant: the Renegades

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  • Originally posted by Teatime View Post
    Hmmm... How would you feel about the following statement:
    "When it comes to stages of grief, a Deviant campaign covers denial, bargaining, depression and most of all - anger. Attaining acceptance is sabotaged by Conspiracies that hound your step, and as such is both endgame material and a victory condition."
    I mean I like that. That’s hounestly a good theme and I enjoy what it is saying and represents a journey where there is an understanding that you can get acceptance. If this is what the game is about, completely hounestly I’m quite exited. But the direct statement that Deviant isn’t about accepting the change sort of directly went into a turn off for me.

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    • Originally posted by SdeSpencer View Post
      But the direct statement that Deviant isn’t about accepting the change sort of directly went into a turn off for me.
      That direct statement is part of the same point as Deviant not being about characters who like being monsters or are quote-unquote Independent From Other People.

      "You're not going to see the game written to support Remade Renegades who don't engage with humanity and are fine in doing so" does not scan to "The Remade are allegories for the chronically ill and the differently abled, who of course experience No Interpersonal Issues Whatsoever from missing something that most of society takes for granted, ergo this particular supernatural alteration in a setting filled with cost-intensive supernatural alterations shouldn't have a firm subtextual stance against Deviant characters diving headfirst into isolation from humanity in the long term without consequence."

      The phrase exists as part of an immediate context that fits just fine into the larger discussion — Deviants share Prometheans' issue of "your powers aren't stable and they're going to fuck you up if the Conspiracies don't beat them to the punch," which makes the Renegade equivalent to the hypothetical Complacent Centimanus extra untenable.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • Originally posted by SdeSpencer View Post
        I mean I like that. That’s hounestly a good theme and I enjoy what it is saying and represents a journey where there is an understanding that you can get acceptance. If this is what the game is about, completely hounestly I’m quite exited. But the direct statement that Deviant isn’t about accepting the change sort of directly went into a turn off for me.
        My point is that we carry different assumptions and because of that we've interpreted the same line of text completely differently.
        You read it as "The game does not acknowledge the possibility of moving beyond your pain".
        I read it as "The game is about what happens before closure, with the risk of never getting there, or losing it once you have it".

        Not accepting the changes can also be understood differently.
        I assumed it meant "The changes you're going through leave you worse off - you're a victim, not a superhero".
        You saw it as "You will never grow as a person and make peace with your changes".

        The final product might still leave some room for interpretation, but odds are that as time passes on, we get to learn which of us had a closer guess. Either way, your heart is in the right place and I hope the book lives up to all our best expectations.


        Find my Homebrew Fangs of Mara 2ed update Here

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        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          That direct statement is part of the same point as Deviant not being about characters who like being monsters or are quote-unquote Independent From Other People.

          "You're not going to see the game written to support Remade Renegades who don't engage with humanity and are fine in doing so" does not scan to "The Remade are allegories for the chronically ill and the differently abled, who of course experience No Interpersonal Issues Whatsoever from missing something that most of society takes for granted, ergo this particular supernatural alteration in a setting filled with cost-intensive supernatural alterations shouldn't have a firm subtextual stance against Deviant characters diving headfirst into isolation from humanity in the long term without consequence."

          The phrase exists as part of an immediate context that fits just fine into the larger discussion — Deviants share Prometheans' issue of "your powers aren't stable and they're going to fuck you up if the Conspiracies don't beat them to the punch," which makes the Renegade equivalent to the hypothetical Complacent Centimanus extra untenable.
          Hounest to god, I like those other points and if it wasn’t for this one thing I would be super exited for just everything that Deviant is. The quote is notable to me because accepting that you are different isn’t the same as reveling in it like you say. These people can still be connected and be a “part of humanity” while still being ok with it being a thing that they are different now. It isn’t “I’m not human and that’s great!” It’s “I’m not the same as I was and I can deal with that.” From What I’ve seen (and what I assume because of some want to avoid huge overlap), Deviants are explicitly different from Prometheans in that Prometheans aren’t human and can become that way, Deviants were human, aren’t anymore, and they can’t go back. There aren’t Centimanus because they don’t have the option to go back normally, only mitigate it. I agree with you that That none of those things are what I want, but acceptance isn’t those things. It’s gritting your teeth and saying that you can deal with it at a certain level. Houesntly, If The thing Teatime said the stages of grief and the acceptance game end are true, I’m probably more excited for the game then I’ve ever been before and really want to see it.

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          • Deviant doesn't have an endgame of escaping your condition - your character's hurt will always be with him. You can, however, mitigate it somewhat, by finding other outlets for the pain. A Deviant who develops their lesser Integrity-equivalent to be greater than their main one enters a state where their Scars don't need anywhere near as much upkeep, and they can get a measure of peace by throwing themselves into what their new touchstones represent.

            But the hurt is still there, and the character remains Remade. If the primary trait goes above the secondary one again, the period of remission ends.

            For Renegades, balance requires developing Loyalty - the story archetype of the survivor finding something or someone else to live for. They will never lose their Scars, but they can put them to the back of their mind for a while, until something happens to disrupt that peace.

            It's not an "end game" in the sense that some of our other games have. It's possible for a freshly-created Deviant to achieve after only a few stories; but it's fragile, and most characters trying for it will drop in and out of it over the course of their Chronicle.

            Which, for my money (obviously) makes it fit the metaphor more - you can choose to not let the condition define you, but it won't magically disappear and you will always have it.

            That's as much Acceptance as a Deviant can have; exchanging a self-destructive coping mechanism for a more positive one. If they try to go without one entirely, they go Brindlefly.


            Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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            • Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              Which, for my money (obviously) makes it fit the metaphor more - you can choose to not let the condition define you, but it won't magically disappear and you will always have it.

              That's as much Acceptance as a Deviant can have; exchanging a self-destructive coping mechanism for a more positive one. If they try to go without one entirely, they go Brindlefly.
              Plus of course, they're constantly beset by people who do define them by their condition, and situations that compel them to focus on it. Both are certainly part of my experience.

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              • Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                Deviant doesn't have an endgame of escaping your condition - your character's hurt will always be with him. You can, however, mitigate it somewhat, by finding other outlets for the pain. A Deviant who develops their lesser Integrity-equivalent to be greater than their main one enters a state where their Scars don't need anywhere near as much upkeep, and they can get a measure of peace by throwing themselves into what their new touchstones represent.

                But the hurt is still there, and the character remains Remade. If the primary trait goes above the secondary one again, the period of remission ends.

                For Renegades, balance requires developing Loyalty - the story archetype of the survivor finding something or someone else to live for. They will never lose their Scars, but they can put them to the back of their mind for a while, until something happens to disrupt that peace.

                It's not an "end game" in the sense that some of our other games have. It's possible for a freshly-created Deviant to achieve after only a few stories; but it's fragile, and most characters trying for it will drop in and out of it over the course of their Chronicle.

                Which, for my money (obviously) makes it fit the metaphor more - you can choose to not let the condition define you, but it won't magically disappear and you will always have it.

                That's as much Acceptance as a Deviant can have; exchanging a self-destructive coping mechanism for a more positive one. If they try to go without one entirely, they go Brindlefly.
                I wont even lie I love this and now am exited for Deviant and officially love this and want it and this is most likely gonna become my favorite ChoD game and honestly think that I was just confused by your terminology and man now I want this game

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                • Wait but if let's say your only is a robot arm variation and you somehow remove it then gift it back to the conspiracy with it riged to blow up there headcourters then isn't that a endgame
                  Unless the arm was connected to your brain then yeah

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                  • Originally posted by Ameraaaaaa View Post
                    Wait but if let's say your only is a robot arm variation and you somehow remove it then gift it back to the conspiracy with it riged to blow up there headcourters then isn't that a endgame
                    Unless the arm was connected to your brain then yeah
                    Yeah, a robotic arm that can be detached without severe repercussions to the host probably isn’t enough of a Divergence to qualify someone as Remade in the first place.


                    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                    • 1 last thing so my remade who's only thing is she got different eyes that can see in the dark would not have issues with people other iner ones that would stop her from being with others

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                      • I get the impression from the material released thus far, that the power given to the remade will always be something more significant. A prosthetic limb or relatively minor ability like darkvision would likely not be enough to warrant the character being the target of a Conspiracy.
                        (Unless the limb was taken from a extra dimensional entity that still has some control over it, or the darkvision also allows one to see a persons sins...)


                        Curios, Relics, and Tomes - A collection of Relics (Cursed and Otherwise)
                        The Horror Lab - A collection of Beasts, Monsters and less definable things.
                        Strange Places - A collection of Dark, Mysterious, and Wondrous Locations
                        Twilight Menagerie - A collection of Ephemeral Entities

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                        • Those 2 ideas sounds awesome can i use them please

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                          • It's kind of tragic that the best the deviant can hope for is some sort of inner balance before he eventually succumbs to their scars, but at the same time, that's what makes the game so attractive to me. You're doomed no matter what, a ticking time bomb, you can delay it a bit, but the end is the same. The only thing that matters is what you do with the time you have left. For my deviant that is making sure that what was done to him doesn't happen to anyone else.

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                            • Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                              That's as much Acceptance as a Deviant can have; exchanging a self-destructive coping mechanism for a more positive one. If they try to go without one entirely, they go Brindlefly.
                              I'm getting BoJack Horseman flashbacks.

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                              • I see a few "end games" for Deviant. Not literally End Games but more higher levels of play:
                                - The Conspiracy has been taken apart piece by piece.
                                - The creation of a New Conspiracy to hunt down Conspiracies (or make more like you)
                                - The ending to AKIRA.



                                Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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