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Deviant: the Renegades

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  • To be fair, the "template-focused" Hunter supplements aren't really crossover books. At least the one's so far provide enough additional mechanics to keep things interesting without actually buying another corebook, and further develop the elements of Hunter that have Strong Opinions on the topic. A Deviant Hunter supplement means "Here's a new compact that thinks murdering Deviants is saving them", not "Here's how Hunters and Deviants team-up."

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    • Originally posted by malonkey1 View Post

      Don't get me wrong, I like crossover stuff, but it's kind of low on the list of stuff I'd like to see for new lines. I'd prefer more content specific to a line long before we get crossover stuff. Beast is kind of an exception because of how it's explicitly designed for crossover play, but for Deviant, I definitely think it should stand on its own for a while before getting crossover content.
      I don't think we're disagreeing here: I'm not saying that a crossovers supplement should be the very first thing to come out; I'm just saying that there should be one, eventually. But I'm also saying that there should be one, eventually: of the other gamelines, only Hunter comes close to being able to justify a separate standalone crossover supplement with each individual gameline. Not even Beast comes close, as the bulk of the Beast/X crossover material pretty much boils down to “here are some appropriate Nightmares”.

      So what I'm picturing is essentially a Mortal Remains supplement with an “other gamelines” appendix.


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      • Originally posted by schizoPOP View Post
        To be fair, the "template-focused" Hunter supplements aren't really crossover books. At least the one's so far provide enough additional mechanics to keep things interesting without actually buying another corebook, and further develop the elements of Hunter that have Strong Opinions on the topic. A Deviant Hunter supplement means "Here's a new compact that thinks murdering Deviants is saving them", not "Here's how Hunters and Deviants team-up."
        To be fair, crossovers aren't necessarily about teaming up; it's about addressing issues that arise when worlds collide.


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        • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
          What I mean is that once Contagion Chronicles is out, I'd rather subsequent games each get a supplement addressing crossover concerns for all of the other gamelines, not just Hunter. Sure, Hunter can have the largest chapter in said supplement; heck, the other crossover gamelines might not even warrant individual chapters and could end up lumped together. But once CC has established the appropriate standards for what ought to be addressed for crossovers, I'd much rather see new gamelines get supplements addressing the full range of crossovers rather than with just one gameline, however significant crossover is for said gameline.
          Hunter supplements arn't made for the other game, they are made for Hunter. Its always pretty much been what Hunter supplements are about, "Here is the target. Here is what all the major groups think about the target, here are some new groups either specialized to fight the target or who weaponize it, and here are some cool toys to play with." Its fundamentally different than what the other game lines do with crossovers, in that it is first and foremost about adding content rather than giving advise and rules for how the games interact. The Changelings, for instance, might have a tendency to get along with Deviants due to their similar backgrounds. But they won't have a group dedicated to fighting them, won't steal their powers, and won't specialize their powers to kill them.

          Simply put, Hunter supplements are supplements for hunter that just happen to focus on crossover content. What you are suggesting would either fundamentally change how Hunter supplements work, or essentially make all crossover books effectively Hunter supplements with an added chapter detailing how other crossovers would work (meaning anyone interested in only the crossover chapter has to buy a book just that, and anyone interested in only the Hunter stuff has a pointless add-on chapter.)

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          • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            So what I'm picturing is essentially a Mortal Remains supplement with an “other gamelines” appendix.
            I'm with Ruger here: Mortal Remains is a Hunter supplement based on a subsequent splat, not crossover material. Having said that, a "Contagion supplement" is also something I would like to see for any lines that come after it. (And we don't know if Hunter 2nd Edition will be getting anything like Mortal Remains).

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            • Okay, I've read through 49 pages of posts here, let's see what ideas stick.

              ​ The phase shattered soul reminds me of "Soul Retrieval" by Sandra Ingerman. It's possible to reintegrate your soul fragments, but that doesn't undo the trauma that broke your soul. It just makes you better able to cope.

              ​ I've recently been looking over "Time of Judgement" from the old World of Darkness. It occurred to me that it would be fun to play a temporally displaced imbued from Hunter: the Reckoning as a deviant. The last thing the character remembers was that it was 2005 and the hunters were loosing the fight. Now it is suddenly 13 years latter, the world still exists but everything seems off, especially the money. He still has all his powers, but Hunter net is down, the symbols don't work anymore and he is now treated as a monster and is being hunter by black ops weirdos.

              ​ Some mention was made of magical girls. I think Princess is fine for standard issue magical girls. Deviant would be right for when the Cheiron Group or Task Force Valkyrie try making magical girls of their own. I've seen a manga series in the book store called Magical Girl Apocalypse, I can easily see that as a result of the Cheiron Groups efforts to create their own magical girls. I have also seen a book titled Magical Girl Spec-Ops which seems appropriate for Task Force Valkyrie. I believe there was a video game and anime called Valkyria Chronicle that would be appropriate here.

              ​ As for cross overs; Hunter the Vigil seems like a good source for conspiracies that give rise to deviants. Everyone else would probably be in the dark about deviants until the story reaches the shit hits the fan sstage when the secrecy is lost and trans-human experimentation is revealed to the general public.

              ​ Both the 60's and the Victorian era have been proposed as setting for dark eras deviants. I like them both; but I tend to think more along the lines of the 30 years war and the Teiping Rebellion. I see the 30 years war as a fight between loyalists of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood and loyalists of The Holy Vehm. While the Teiping rebellion would see loyalist deviants from the Heavenly Kingdom of Peace fighting loyalist deviants of the Qing dynasty led by Charles George Gordon. Gordon was latter sent to Khartoum to cover up his own deviant nature brought on by Chinese Alchemy.

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              • Two interesting ideas I've had a few times, but people seem to be mostly glossing over:

                -

                1. In terms of mixing with Hunter, everyone I've seen seems to be people asking how Hunters and their groups would make Deviants and hunt Renegades (naturally), and while I agree that certainly the latter should be the primary focus of a Mortal Remains chapter (along with the second thing I have to say after this but I’ll get to that) and the former will certainly be true of several Conspiracies, in my personal opinion a huge avenue of Crossover (as in would be in the Contagion Chronicle supplement instead, along with Hunter Conspiracies making deviants in my opinion) that seems to be overlooked is the use of Hunters as Renegade Touchstones, particularly members of a really large number of Compacts (and a few Conspiracies), which I’m going to list because I’m bored.

                Straight Forward like 100% ones:

                Habibti Ma (or Habibti Ma’at if you want to take the correction): Let’s see. What makes these Renegades not like 100% people hurt and broken by cults? This is like pretty much what this Compact was made for.
                Yuri’s Group: Let’s see. This one is almost as blunt as Habibti Ma, Renegades are in some desperate need of some therapy, and as well as the group probably being actually really helpful for a Renegade, the majority of Renegades are pretty much the exact kinds of monsters that the group is meant to help.
                The Merrick Institute (Conspiracy): Very similar to Deviants in a lot of ways honestly, they are being chased by a conspiracy of their own and were given powers by the terrible experience, they would probably find several similarities between them.
                Maiden’s Blood Sisterhood: Much less overt than the others on this sublist to be sure, but they seem to be mostly fine with “Mostly Human” monsters like Awakened, which I think most Deviants fall under, and as well, I’d say that what Conspiracies are doing to the Renegades (and for a good amount of them, what made them a Deviant) definitely qualifies as some serious abuse.

                Less Straight forward or needing certain circumstances but still pretty good argument (I put them in order of how strong I feel the argument is):

                Network Zero: the main point of Network Zero is revealing the truth, and honestly, that sounds like a huge chip in their shoulder against the secretive conspiracies fighting against the Renegades, and are likely to bond with the Renegades by fighting the same people, as Renegades main reason for hiding who they are is fear of the conspiracies.
                The Union/Night Watch: I’m putting these both under the same grouping because of similar reasonings, but Renegades that used to be part of the community and/or peacefully established themselves as a Renegade without discovery and joined the community are likely to be protected by these organizations instead of attacked, and seen as “one of us” instead of a monster to be killed.
                The Lucifuge/The Odoto (Conspiracies): I put these two together due to basically being the same Conspiracy just with Christian vs Shinto. The reason for their being here is fairly obvious, in that they both tend to see themselves as “Monsters” and want to help the others who they wouldn’t necessarily have a hatred of and would see them as abused and want to help them.
                The Talbot Group: Honestly, I could have put these in the first list due to how friendly they are to their primary supernatural, but I’m putting them on this list due to how rarely they would actually properly meet Deviants, as well as likely seeing them as patients instead of friends, but I would say if it did happen, it wouldn’t be at all Farfetched for a Deviant to make a member one of their touchstones
                Null Mysteriis: Similar to the Talbot Group, would likely try to help the Renegades due to trying to be moral and figure out how to help these people were made (preferably in a moral way and to try to not do it), and the Renegades might bond to them due to their attempts to help and likely distaste to their conspiracies.
                VASCU (Conspiracy): OK this is the only one I put on here that I admit is kind of a stretch, but this is an actual FBI group that would be mostly fine with not hurting monsters that aren’t doing anybody any wrong, as well as likely being against the conspiracies fighting Renegades, which are almost always outside the law.

                Along with all these, independent Hunters and members of other Hunter groups would occasionally have their own reasons for helping Renegades, as well as being much more competent as fighters and therefore more likely to survive learning about and getting involved with fighting the conspiracy.

                -

                2. As well as that, something that I mentioned and hinted at earlier was hunters fighting Conspiracies and Loyalist Deviants, something that could also be in the Mortal Remains supplement and be quite common among many different hunter groups, including the ones I mentioned earlier (Especially Habibti Ma), as well as many of the ones that take down Renegades or even make Deviants of their own (like Task Force: VALKYRIE). I won’t list the different ones that would do this, it would take even more words than I’ve already used, but this is an important thing to mention and something I really want to see.
                Last edited by SdeSpencer; 01-01-2018, 12:16 AM.

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                • Originally posted by SdeSpencer View Post
                  2. As well as that, something that I mentioned and hinted at earlier was hunters fighting Conspiracies and Loyalist Deviants, something that could also be in the Mortal Remains supplement and be quite common among many different hunter groups, including the ones I mentioned earlier (Especially Habibti Ma)
                  And especially the Maiden's Blood Sisterhood. They despise abuse. which is at the core of how Deviants are made - and move in academic and high-class circles, which puts then close to things the conspiracies are likely to value (and thus come into contact with them).

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                  • Originally posted by SdeSpencer View Post
                    1. In terms of mixing with Hunter, everyone I've seen seems to be people asking how Hunters and their groups would make Deviants and hunt Renegades (naturally), and while I agree that certainly the latter should be the primary focus of a Mortal Remains chapter (along with the second thing I have to say after this but I’ll get to that) and the former will certainly be true of several Conspiracies, in my personal opinion a huge avenue of Crossover (as in would be in the Contagion Chronicle supplement instead, along with Hunter Conspiracies making deviants in my opinion) that seems to be overlooked is the use of Hunters as Renegade Touchstones, particularly members of a really large number of Compacts (and a few Conspiracies), which I’m going to list because I’m bored.
                    I've been thinking about this and I think that any crossovers between Hunters and Deviants will inevitably end up in a breakup of varying degrees of messiness depending on the Hunter group. Why? Because Deviants are just so useful to the Hunters. Just look at the core groups:

                    - The Ashwood Abbey has never seen something like the Deviants and either want to be on the receiving end of their Variations for kicks or do their usual sick things on them for the same purpose.
                    - The Long Night will either destroy the Deviants for being deviant or try to convert them and have them fight in the name of the LORD.
                    - The Loyalists of Thule will try and recruit the Deviants the same way they do everyone else: blackmail. And if they suspect you are the product of Nazi(-inspired) science, then hoo boy.
                    - Network 0 is going to milk them for whatever info they got on their Progenitors and document their Variations and Scars, putting their human feelings in third place.
                    - Null Mysteriis will try and science the SHIT out of the Deviants no matter what they think about this, and might even end up losing them to internal struggles (which might involve the Progenitors).
                    - The Union takes its usual NIMBY approach if the Deviant is not from around: if they are they might be allowed to stay until the Scars get too bad.
                    - The Aegis Kai Doru might, depending on the changes, lock the Deviants away, kill them for witchcraft or take them apart for the good bits.
                    - The Ascending Ones isn't going to kill them right away: if the Deviant is the product of alchemy they're going to be studied and if they secrete stuff they will be milked for the rest of their lives.
                    - The Cheiron Group are going to try and reverse engineer them. New boss same as the old and all.
                    - The Lucifuge will want to make sure that the Deviant is not the product of demonic possession: if that's the case they can say hello to Mr .45 ACP.
                    - The Malleus Maleficarum will either do the same as the Long Night or kill Deviants if they're the product of vampires/witches/demons.
                    - VALKYRIE will tag Deviants and bring them in. Those Deviants whose Progenitors are associated with the government will be around shortly to collect their prize.

                    And that's only the core twelve. Imagine what it's like for the other groups... or hell, imagine a Deviant teaming up with a Slasher.

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                    • Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
                      I've been thinking about this and I think that any crossovers between Hunters and Deviants will inevitably end up in a breakup of varying degrees of messiness depending on the Hunter group. Why? Because Deviants are just so useful to the Hunters. Just look at the core groups:

                      - The Ashwood Abbey has never seen something like the Deviants and either want to be on the receiving end of their Variations for kicks or do their usual sick things on them for the same purpose.
                      - The Long Night will either destroy the Deviants for being deviant or try to convert them and have them fight in the name of the LORD.
                      - The Loyalists of Thule will try and recruit the Deviants the same way they do everyone else: blackmail. And if they suspect you are the product of Nazi(-inspired) science, then hoo boy.
                      - Network 0 is going to milk them for whatever info they got on their Progenitors and document their Variations and Scars, putting their human feelings in third place.
                      - Null Mysteriis will try and science the SHIT out of the Deviants no matter what they think about this, and might even end up losing them to internal struggles (which might involve the Progenitors).
                      - The Union takes its usual NIMBY approach if the Deviant is not from around: if they are they might be allowed to stay until the Scars get too bad.
                      - The Aegis Kai Doru might, depending on the changes, lock the Deviants away, kill them for witchcraft or take them apart for the good bits.
                      - The Ascending Ones isn't going to kill them right away: if the Deviant is the product of alchemy they're going to be studied and if they secrete stuff they will be milked for the rest of their lives.
                      - The Cheiron Group are going to try and reverse engineer them. New boss same as the old and all.
                      - The Lucifuge will want to make sure that the Deviant is not the product of demonic possession: if that's the case they can say hello to Mr .45 ACP.
                      - The Malleus Maleficarum will either do the same as the Long Night or kill Deviants if they're the product of vampires/witches/demons.
                      - VALKYRIE will tag Deviants and bring them in. Those Deviants whose Progenitors are associated with the government will be around shortly to collect their prize.

                      And that's only the core twelve. Imagine what it's like for the other groups... or hell, imagine a Deviant teaming up with a Slasher.

                      I'll break this apart or agree with you one by one

                      1. Ashwood: yeah no arguments. Ashwood be Ashwood
                      2. Long Night: yeah no arguments.
                      3. Loyalists of Thule: Maybe? like honestly I doubt it. if a deviant is being chased by or was Created by Nazis I'd say that the Loyalists would 1000% want to help them, especially given that ableism was a SUPER DUPER NAZI THING
                      4. Network Zero: Already argued, but i doubt those are really mutually exclusive like. at all?
                      5. Null Mysteriis: Sure, but Null Mysteriis is defined as scientists, and scientists have strict ethics codes, and that goes double for Null Mysteriis, who are explicitly about not being mad scientists, that's Cheiron's perview
                      6. The Union: I agree with the fist thing, I just feel like the union is protective enough of there communities that even if the Scars got bad they would try to help and protect the Deviants in their community
                      7. Aegis Kai Doru: yeah no arguments.
                      8. Ascending Ones: yeah no arguments.
                      9. Cheiron: they are an actual example of a deviant hunter conspiracy so yeah.
                      10. Luciferiage: what? this doesn't even really appear to be an argument. sure yes. but i don't think any are (and even if a few are most aren't), as demon possesed is already a template, and there was a distinct statement deviant wasnt gonna take over other templates
                      11: Malleus Maleficarum: yeah no arguments.
                      12: VALKYRIE: yeah no arguments, this barely needs to be said.
                      13: Slashers: Yeah. uh. this is kind of implied

                      My point here isn't that most hunter groups would become allied with Renegades, but a good amount would and those should be looked at, as that's what a lot of people would want to see in crossovers and is an interesting way to look at the other game from both a Deviant and Hunter perspective

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                      • We intend to have crossovery stuff in Deviant's own kickstarter. Don't expect things like Forms for being made by a vampiric mystery cult instead of human conspirators in either Dark Eras or Contagion chronicle - they're just not the place for it, but a hypothetical Deviant Companion? Get in.

                        Contagion isn't my project, so I will remain tight-lipped about what it entails, but I've already been in contact with its Dev about the Remade's place in it.

                        Because it was asked, by the way - the other line Developer for Deviant is Eric Zawadzki. Eric is one of my favorite writers - he did the setting chapter for Mage second edition for me, among his many credits - and helping me shoulder Deviant's gameline is a good fit.


                        Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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                        • Oh he did Unbidden too, that's a good one.

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                          • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                            Oh he did Unbidden too, that's a good one.
                            Unbidden was my first assignment, in fact.

                            I also did Mage Chroniclers Guide in 1E days, God-Machine Chronicles, sections of virtually every Demon: the Descent book, and bits of W20 and Beast.

                            I'm looking forward to helping develop Deviant.


                            Onyx Path Freelancer and Fantasy Author

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                            • Somethings I figure I'd ask for knowledge and to facilitate discussion:

                              1. do Renegades and Guardians especially have that iconic roaring rampage of revenge moment after a touchstone dies and is that supported by the rules?

                              2. For Nemeses, do they have that equally defining moment of "what now?" after they defeat their target and actually win, and is that supported by the rules?

                              1b/2b: for that matter both of these questions really apply to actually any deviant

                              3. by "simmering anger" do you mean the constant visceral Serious "want to kill something right now" anger that you merely wrangle down, or that anger that you can sort of occasionally stop thinking about because of other feelings but it's always silently there and looking back it's always there (I like both but I want to get my thoughts right.)

                              4. how heavily will the inability to truly define yourself outside of your relationships of others be focused one, and for that matter, what counts as a relationship?

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                              • Wait, what? Forms? Guardians? Nemeses? I must have missed the latest stuff. Where can I find them?


                                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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