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  • Know Your Gods [Cosmology Thread]

    So every once and a while, I start musing about the "true nature" of the CofD's Cosmology and divinities. While there are variations from time to time, it always ends up as some sort of polytheistic system, with some fundamental powers which create lesser gods, which create or protect the many different critters of the setting. While each of those different forces has its own origin, the common thread is that all of them are the "first" of something- and that by being the first, they changed the world. Anyway, after finding which realms, beings and phenomena I believe should come from such "fundamental divinity", I've hit few mental blocks and weren't sure how to carry on- so help at developing the blank ideas would be welcomed. Notice that it is a mix of canon, semi canon and pure homebrew, so if something isn't clear feel free to ask :P

    The Darkness- Fallen/Horrors/Mortals- the Thing in the Dark, the Crack, Robs of Night and Silence, the First Horror

    The Source- Witches/Thaumaturges- Mother Earth, Living Magic, Flow of Life and Fate, the First ???

    Omphalos- Psychics/Goetia/Body Thieves/Astral- the Serpent, Whose Venom Devours Dreams, Keeper of Past and Future, the First ???

    ???- Skinthieves- ???

    Nature- Changing Breeds- Careless Mother, She Who Gifts, Lady in Red and Green, the First Breath

    ???- Old Ones- ???

    The Adversary- Inferno/Possessed/Lucifuge- Prince of Darkness, the Fire Bellow the World, King of Vice and Passion, the First Sin

    ???- Slashers- ???

    The Rite- Blood Bathers- Giver of Life, the Original, Miracle of Sacrifice and Blood, the First ???

    ???- Purified- ???

    ???- Dark Heroes- ???

    God Machine- Angels/Stigmatics/Infrastructures- The Broken Clockwork, Gears of the World, Mover of Heaven and Earth, the First Mechanism

    The Network- AI/Cyborgs-the Grid, Virtual Existence, Connection of Space and Time, the First Link

    God- Vampires/MM Hunters/Empyrean- the One, Father of All, Creator and Destroyer of Worlds, the First Divinity

    The Crone- Vampires/Ghouls/Dampyre- the Blood, Primordial Creation, Witch of Death and Chaos, the First Blood

    Lilith- Dis/Strix- Queen of Owls, False Life, Mirror of Blood and Smoke, the First Shadow

    Pazuzu- Eddimu/Iltani- Lord of the Wind, Screamer among the Stars, Demon of Plague and Drought, the First ???

    Kur- Alu- ???

    Tezcatlipoca- Cihuateteo- Smoking Mirror, the Jaguar, Devourer of Hearts and Souls, the First ???

    Dii Imortales- Cult of Augurs- the Masqueraded, Unseen Movement, Gods Great and Small, the First Empire

    Father Wolf- Pangaea/Werewolves/Hosts- Moon Lover, Guardian of the Bordermarch, Bane of Flesh and Spirit, the First Hunter

    Gaea- Hisil/Spirits- World's Shadow, Unseen Mother, Blood of Life and Death, the First Spirit

    Ain Soph- Star Spirits- Unmoved Mover, Breath of all Life, Ripples in the Celestial River and Sea, the First ???

    Luna- Shapeshifters/Idigam- Earth Banished, Mad Silver Light, Changing Lady, the First Change

    Helios- ???- Everflame, Burning Lord of Light, King of Day and Fire, the First ???

    ???- Unclean- ???

    Sea- Brineborn/Drowned- Eternal Dread, the Deluge, Endless Hunger and Despair, the First ???

    Oracles- Supernal/Mages- Lightbringers, Stars of Heaven, Watchtowers of Horn and Ivory, the First Soul

    Exrach- Lies/Seer- Kings of the Lie, Iron Seals, Tyrants and Judges of Falsehoods, the First Lie

    Arawn- Annwn/Hounds- the Hunter, Unseen Threat, Hollow Beyond Light and Sound, the First ???

    Annunaki- Abyss/Scelesti- the Void, Darkness from the Outside, Lords of Madness and Oblivion, the First Deviation

    Father- Tremere- Maker of Souls, World Tree, Eater of Breath and Spirit, the First Dragon

    The Principle- Divine Fire/Prometheans/Alchemists/Qashmalim- the Firestorm, the Philosopher Stone, Hand of God and Heaven, the First Dogma

    The Mockery- Flux/Pandorans/Centimani- the Decay, Shadow of Corruption, That Which Rots and Breaks, the First Mistake

    Awful Ice- Cold Ones/Domemim- Heaven's Frost, Twilight of the Gods, Perfection Still and Silent, the First Regret

    Wyrd- Changelings/True Fae- Weaver of Tales, Songs of Troubadours, Fate of Beauty and Madness, the First Story

    Echo- Fetches- the Mimic, False Image, Hollow Laughter and Tears, the First Reflection

    ???- Huntsmen- ???

    The Tree- Hedge/Hobgoblins- the Thorns, Forbidden Fruit, Labyrinth of Fear and Pain, the First Wound

    Lady of Dreams- Skein/Incubi- Trader of Wishes, Collector of Lost Things, Watcher of Price and Pay, the First Wish

    The Vigil- Hunters- Legion of Candles, Falling Scales, Protector of Light and Shadow, the First ???

    Director's Board- Cheiron Group- ???

    Faceless Angels- Knights of St George- the Seventy Two, Last Hope, Slayers of Dragons and Serpents, the First ???

    Hecate- Promethean Brotherhood- Warden of Crossroads, Black Path of Magic, Thief of Stars and Moons, the First Heresy

    Ocean of Fragments- Underworld/Ghosts/Bound- Death, End of All Rivers, Sea Beyond Life and Darkness, the First Tear

    ???- Chtonians- ???

    ???- Kereboi- ???

    ???-Abmortals-???

    Law of Suffering- Arisen- the Sacrifice, Nameless Ones, Forty Two Crimes and Punishments, the First Law

    The Devourer- Shaunsken/Amkhat- Primordial Hunger, She Who Waits, Ocean of Endings and Oblivion, the First Hunger

    Fate- Deceived/Aaru- Cold Stars of Eternity, Path of Light, Spheres of Music and Divinity, the First Plan

    Sutekh- Apotheosis/Sha Beasts- the Unjudged, Will of Heaven, Staff of Names and Sacrifice, the First Will

    Khepera- Sekhem- the Scarab, Word of All Things, That Which is Creator and Created, the First ???

    Satan Signal- Demons- Call for Arms, Fallen Light, Song of Challenge and Defiance, the First Rebellion

    Raziel- Exiled- Keeper of Secrets, Master of Words, Book of Machines and Stars, the First Exile

    Samyaza- Cryptid- Lord Among Beasts, the Living Devil, Breaker of Cog and Chain, the First ???

    Dark Mother- Beasts/Primordial Dream- Mother of Monsters, the Primal Nightmare, Dream of Dread and Hunger, the First Fear

    ???- Heroes- ???
    Last edited by LostLight; 09-24-2016, 03:01 PM.


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  • #2
    The Adversary is, I believe, linked with the Demiurge by the Belial's Brood. I'm not entirely sure on that, it's been a while, but both are mentioned in that book.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      The Adversary is, I believe, linked with the Demiurge by the Belial's Brood. I'm not entirely sure on that, it's been a while, but both are mentioned in that book.
      Actually, I've took the name right from Inferno, as how the "10 Rank Demon" was called. I've also haven't read Belial's Brood for a long time, but I don't think it would be that far fetched that they are tied to Inferno, one way or another. I'll give it a look.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by LostLight View Post
        Actually, I've took the name right from Inferno, as how the "10 Rank Demon" was called. I've also haven't read Belial's Brood for a long time, but I don't think it would be that far fetched that they are tied to Inferno, one way or another. I'll give it a look.
        Oh I know it's in Inferno, I was just adding as you said you hit a few blocks.

        From the book's Lexicon, though it goes into it further in the text I'm not going to look for it right now, 'Adversary, the: The common name among Forsworn for the source of the vampiric soul, the one true “deity” of all vampires. Some ascribe to it the traits of the Judeo-Christian Lucifer, while others feel the scope of the Adversary is beyond such familiarity. (Also Demiurge.)'

        The Forsworn are, of course, the Brood.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
          So every once and a while, I start musing about the "true nature" of the CofD's Cosmology and divinities. While there are variations from time to time, it always ends up as some sort of polytheistic system, with some fundamental powers which create lesser gods, which create or protect the many different critters of the setting. While each of those different forces has its own origin, the common thread is that all of them are the "first" of something- and that by being the first, they changed the world. Anyway, after finding which realms, beings and phenomena I believe should come from such "fundamental divinity", I've hit few mental blocks and weren't sure how to carry on- so help at developing the blank ideas would be welcomed. Notice that it is a mix of canon, semi canon and pure homebrew, so if something isn't clear feel free to ask :P

          The Darkness- Fallen/Horrors/Mortals- the Thing in the Dark, the Crack, Robs of Night and Silence, the First Horror

          The Source- Witches/Thaumaturges- Mother Earth, Living Magic, Flow of Life and Fate, the First ???

          Omphalos- Psychics/Goetia/Body Thieves/Astral- the Serpent, Whose Venom Devours Dreams, Keeper of Past and Future, the First ???

          ???- Skinthieves- ???

          Nature- Changing Breeds- Careless Mother, She Who Gifts, Lady in Red and Green, the First Breath

          ???- Old Ones- ???

          The Adversary- Inferno/Possessed/Lucifuge- Prince of Darkness, the Fire Bellow the World, King of Vice and Passion, the First Sin

          ???- Slashers- ???

          The Rite- Blood Bathers- Giver of Life, the Original, Miracle of Sacrifice and Blood, the First ???

          ???- Purified- ???

          ???- Dark Heroes- ???

          God Machine- Angels/Stigmatics/Infrastructures- The Broken Clockwork, Gears of the World, Mover of Heaven and Earth, the First Mechanism

          The Network- AI/Cyborgs-the Grid, Virtual Existence, Connection of Space and Time, the First Link

          God- Vampires/MM Hunters- the One, Father of All, Creator and Destroyer of Worlds, the First Divinity

          The Crone- Vampires/Ghouls/Dampyre- the Blood, Primordial Creation, Witch of Death and Chaos, the First Blood

          Lilith- Dis/Strix- Queen of Owls, False Life, Mirror of Blood and Smoke, the First Shadow

          Pazuzu- Eddimu/Iltani- Lord of the Wind, Screamer among the Stars, Demon of Plague and Drought, the First ???

          Kur- Alu- ???

          Tezcatlipoca- Cihuateteo- Smoking Mirror, the Jaguar, Devourer of Hearts and Souls, the First ???

          Father Wolf- Pangaea/Werewolves/Hosts- Moon Lover, Guardian of the Bordermarch, Bane of Flesh and Spirit, the First Hunter

          Gaea- Hisil/Spirits- World's Shadow, Unseen Mother, Blood of Life and Death, the First Spirit

          Ain Soph- Star Spirits- Unmoved Mover, Breath of all Life, Ripples in the Celestial River and Sea, the First ???

          Luna- Shapeshifters/Idigam- Earth Banished, Mad Silver Light, Changing Lady, the First Change

          Helios- ???- Everflame, Burning Lord of Light, King of Day and Fire, the First ???

          ???- Unclean- ???

          Sea- Brineborn/Drowned- Eternal Dread, the Deluge, Endless Hunger and Despair, the First ???

          Oracles- Supernal/Mages- Lightbringers, Stars of Heaven, Watchtowers of Horn and Ivory, the First Soul

          Exrach- Lies/Seer- Kings of the Lie, Iron Seals, Tyrants and Judges of Falsehoods, the First Lie

          Arawn- Annwn/Hounds- the Hunter, Unseen Threat, Hollow Beyond Light and Sound, the First ???

          Annunaki- Abyss/Scelesti- the Void, Darkness from the Outside, Lords of Madness and Oblivion, the First Deviation

          Father- Tremere- Maker of Souls, World Tree, Eater of Breath, the First Dragon

          The Principle- Divine Fire/Prometheans/Alchemists/Qashmalim- the Firestorm, the Philosopher Stone, Hand of God and Heaven, the First Dogma

          The Mockery- Flux/Pandorans/Centimani- the Decay, Shadow of Corruption, That Which Rots and Breaks, the First Mistake

          Awful Ice- Cold Ones/Domemim- Heaven's Frost, Twilight of the Gods, Perfection Still and Silent, the First Regret

          Wyrd- Changelings/True Fae- Weaver of Tales, Songs of Troubadours, Fate of Beauty and Madness, the First Story

          Echo- Fetches- the Mimic, False Image, Hollow Laughter and Tears, the First Reflection

          ???- Huntsmen- ???

          The Tree- Hedge/Hobgoblins- the Thorns, Forbidden Fruit, Labyrinth of Fear and Pain, the First Wound

          Lady of Dreams- Skein/Incubi- Trader of Wishes, Collector of Lost Things, Watcher of Price and Pay, the First Wish

          The Vigil- Hunters- Legion of Candles, Falling Scales, Protector of Light and Shadow, the First ???

          Director's Board- Cheiron Group- ???

          Faceless Angels- Knights of St George- the Seventy Two, Last Hope, Slayers of Dragons and Serpents, the First ???

          Hecate- Promethean Brotherhood- Warden of Crossroads, Black Path of Magic, Thief of Stars and Moons, the First Heresy

          Ocean of Fragments- Underworld/Ghosts/Bound- Death, End of All Rivers, Sea Beyond Life and Darkness, the First Tear

          ???- Chtonians- ???

          ???- Kereboi- ???

          ???-Abmortals-???

          Law of Suffering- Arisen- the Sacrifice, Nameless Ones, Forty Two Crimes and Punishments, the First Law

          The Devourer- Shaunsken/Amkhat- Primordial Hunger, She Who Waits, Ocean of Endings and Oblivion, the First Hunger

          Fate- Deceived/Aaru- Cold Stars of Eternity, Path of Light, Spheres of Music and Divinity, the First Plan

          Sutekh- Apotheosis/Sha Beasts- the Unjudged, Will of Heaven, Staff of Names and Sacrifice, the First Will

          Satan Signal- Demons- Call for Arms, Fallen Light, Song of Challenge and Defiance, the First Rebellion

          Raziel- Exiled- Keeper of Secrets, Master of Words, Book of Machines and Stars, the First Exile

          Samyaza- Cryptid- Lord Among Beasts, the Living Devil, Breaker of Cog and Chain, the First ???

          Dark Mother- Beasts/Primordial Dream- Mother of Monsters, the Primal Nightmare, Dream of Dread and Hunger, the First Fear

          ???- Heroes- ???
          Some of these things are the samething.

          Fetches and Huntsmen are created by the True Fae, if your looking for a god higher then the True Fae, beings that can be universes, then I'd go for the Wyrd for all them.

          The faceless Angels are just Abyssal creatures, so just go with the Annunaki for them too. The Principle is the source for Flux too.

          Each of the Supenal Realms might be a Rank 10 Supernal Creature, its been hinted at, so the Oracles and Exarchs are smaller then that.

          The Crone and the Dark Mother MIGHT be the same being, its unknown.

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          • #6
            Maybe I missed her, but where's Hecate?

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            • #7
              I think horrors and slashers should be made by the Dark Mother.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                I think horrors and slashers should be made by the Dark Mother.
                Cannonly- definitely could be! Under this paradigm, in which every phenomenon has a different root, it's not the case- the Dark Mother is the power behind Beasts and the Primordial Dream, which is something specific, while Slashers are people who became monsters by their own violation while Horrors simply defy definition (hence why they are part of the sphere of "the Darkness", which is the general "fundamental power" for "this world is messed up"). In this cosmology, if the Dark Mother is the mother of monsters is because she is the First Fear, from which many other primal forces were created.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Flyboy254 View Post
                  Maybe I missed her, but where's Hecate?
                  this falls to the category of "semi canon"- the Endowment of the Brotherhood is, after all, called "the Rite of Hecate", and one of the things I've toyed with for a long time was the origin of the ritual, which eventually led into Hecate being the "lost Oracle of the Abyss" which walked into the Land of Crossroads herself in order to create a path through which the Supernal Light of the Watchtower could reach the Fallen. Again, this is all head canon :P


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

                    Some of these things are the samething.

                    Fetches and Huntsmen are created by the True Fae, if your looking for a god higher then the True Fae, beings that can be universes, then I'd go for the Wyrd for all them.
                    Just a little correction- the Huntsmen are not created by the True Fae, if I remember correctly. They are stories older than the Gentry which are awakened by them in order to serve them as hunters. Now, yes, your are right- those two could easily be part of the Wyrd- and canonly they are. But one of the things I've toyed with for long time is creating a "Fetch" to the Wyrd (because Fetches are one of the things I really like at Changeling and I wish there were rules for fully playable ones). The result was "the Echo", a force of mimicry which lacks existence of its own and fully depends on the Wyrd in order to react to it. It was created by the Wyrd because every good protagonist requires an antagonist to stand in its way. As for the Huntsmen- under thing cosmology, the Wyrd is the First Story, while the Huntsmen are stories older than mankind. I thought it would be interesting to tie them to something far older and much more primal than the Wyrd itself.

                    The faceless Angels are just Abyssal creatures, so just go with the Annunaki for them too. The Principle is the source for Flux too.
                    The Faceless Angels were never canonly said to be Abyssal Beings. While I do usually use them as such (out of pure symmetry), I've also made 3 different origin stories for them (as astral beings, god machine angels and infernal demons), and in order to maintain their nature as enigma I've kept them separated. The Mockery is, of course, purely head canon- the result of my trying to decide whether I should tear the Principle to two opposing forces of Elpis and Flux or keep it as one. As a compromise, I've made the Mockery as a separate, yet related being- as you may notice, the Principle has the Divine Fire as whole as part of its portfolio, including Flux and Lilithim. The Mockery controls only Flux, and even then only as consequences for its connection for the Principle- it is the First Mistake which was ever done by the Principle, and it serves as some sort of "pandoran" to the Principle's efforts.

                    Each of the Supenal Realms might be a Rank 10 Supernal Creature, its been hinted at, so the Oracles and Exarchs are smaller then that.
                    never liked the "each Supernal Realm is a 10 Rank being", and it was mentioned only once, I think. The Supernal is limitless, and is defined into 5 such places only by the Watchtowers (at least, in this cosmology). The Oracles are the Watchtowers, which are the Supernal. The Exrachs have conquered the Supernal and made the Lie to become its kings. In sort, humanity (both as Oracles and Exrachs) has conquered the Supernal- and as such, the Supernal Realms, even if they are independent beings, can not be of higher "Rank" then its kings and queen. The Exrachs are the Lie, and the Oracles are the Supernal.

                    The Crone and the Dark Mother MIGHT be the same being, its unknown.
                    The Crone in this cosmology is interpreted a bit differently then how she may be in canon- she is the Blood, the flow of Vitae, every Beast which roars in dead heart. She is the very concept of vamprisim, the bleeding wound which has been cut in so many different ways. She is the drug in the bite and the blood and the blush of life which masks the death. She is not a mother, for she never birthed anyone- but she is, and she always would be as long as blood is spilled- for blood always keeps on flowing, and it always requires an heart to flow to. (I have originally to simply call her as "the Blood", but I've preferred to use a term from Vampire's setting instead).


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                    • #11
                      Nice list, but many entries could be connected. And more importantly - all of them would be trump by Ain Soph - it simply should be 'Rank 11', Creator of Everything. He probably started Big Bang and any other magical processes that ended in creating other gods of this list. He may or maybe not Judeochristian God of vampires.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-23-2016, 06:50 AM.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        Nice list, but many entries could be connected. And more importantly - all of them would be trump by Ain Soph - it simply should be 'Rank 11', Creator of Everything. He probably started Big Bang and any other magical processes that ended in creating other gods of this list. He may or maybe not Judeochristian God of vampires.
                        In my cosmology, if there is such "Rank 11" being, it is so far beyond human mind that it can't even be grasped- all of those Rank 10 beings are already so far beyond mortal (and monster) mind that they are seen as no more than forces of nature of laws of reality. Something even more fundamental simply can not be grasped by, well, anyone. God is, however, in the list (still haven't fully decided if the Lacea God is God of the Empyrean) as the "First Divinity"- he is equal to all the rest of the powers that be, being different simply by being the first. Ain Sop, on the other hand, is the Shadow of outer space and distant stars, a twin brother of Gaea.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          In my cosmology, if there is such "Rank 11" being, it is so far beyond human mind that it can't even be grasped- all of those Rank 10 beings are already so far beyond mortal (and monster) mind that they are seen as no more than forces of nature of laws of reality. Something even more fundamental simply can not be grasped by, well, anyone.
                          And it's literal definition of Ain Soph - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof

                          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          Ain Sop, on the other hand, is the Shadow of outer space and distant stars, a twin brother of Gaea.
                          Oh, you mean here Azatoth, Spirit of Milky Way. And 'genealogically', he would be 'father' to Gaea as she is still only one planet's Shadow Goddess.
                          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-24-2016, 12:53 PM.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            Ain Sop, on the other hand, is the Shadow of outer space and distant stars, a twin brother of Gaea.

                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            Oh, you mean here Azatoth, Spirit of Milky Way.
                            If you want to take that mashup further, there's published Mythos that places Yog-Sothoth as the burning bush

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                            • #15
                              An evolution of this list please ?

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