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Prohibitive Penalties for Opening Primordial Pathways

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    I generally assume the -3 for getting out when you don't really care where in the destination realm you end up covers the similarity factors.
    I think the implicit ability to technically narrow the field of random results with Lair Traits justifies keeping the penalty for descriptive similarity; it makes blind shortcutting jaunts across the world more likely to wear out your Willpower or strain your Lair to the breaking point than to succeed until you've got some experience under your belt while still allowing for informed cross-continental movement with only the penalties for realm and resonance to worry about.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      I think the implicit ability to technically narrow the field of random results with Lair Traits justifies keeping the penalty for descriptive similarity; it makes blind shortcutting jaunts across the world more likely to wear out your Willpower or strain your Lair to the breaking point than to succeed until you've got some experience under your belt while still allowing for informed cross-continental movement with only the penalties for realm and resonance to worry about.
      Can you clarify what you mean here?

      Would it be possible to choose a 'random' location, but one that's under the effect of some of your traits to receive the bonus?

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      • #18
        Yeah, I think the idea is that if you just blindly jump you'll probably end up in a place with one or more of your lair traits.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
          Can you clarify what you mean here?
          Having that -5 penalty for descriptive similarity still apply to random jumps makes it more likely that you'll fail or dramatically fail, and only going "somewhere in the Underworld that's a forest with a lot of Stinging Swarms and Rotting Undergrowth," for example, is generally liable to put you farther from the relative safety of a given realm's less extreme shallows — plunging headfirst into the kind of place that may well have a minor god or three hanging around is more likely to get you into trouble than out.

          Would it be possible to choose a 'random' location, but one that's under the effect of some of your traits to receive the bonus?
          That's the hypothesis. The fact that it's easier to feel your way into other realms lessens the utility of "jump to a Jagged Burning Flooded Electrified lakeside cabin" as a quick travel tool, but after the first trip the -3 goes away and the greater degree of pre-established groundwork means you can try your hand at building out from there at a more measured pace, as opposed to, say, trying to hop straight from one material-world church to another solely on the basis of shared churchness.


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            Having that -5 penalty for descriptive similarity still apply to random jumps makes it more likely that you'll fail or dramatically fail, and only going "somewhere in the Underworld that's a forest with a lot of Stinging Swarms and Rotting Undergrowth," for example, is generally liable to put you farther from the relative safety of a given realm's less extreme shallows — plunging headfirst into the kind of place that may well have a minor god or three hanging around is more likely to get you into trouble than out.

            That's the hypothesis. The fact that it's easier to feel your way into other realms lessens the utility of "jump to a Jagged Burning Flooded Electrified lakeside cabin" as a quick travel tool, but after the first trip the -3 goes away and the greater degree of pre-established groundwork means you can try your hand at building out from there at a more measured pace, as opposed to, say, trying to hop straight from one material-world church to another solely on the basis of shared churchness.
            Thanks, this has been super helpful.

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            • #21
              Satchel, and everyone else, could a Beast open the pathway while using Soul Communion, as their Horror? The book mentions that Horrors are capable of opening them, but has nothing to say on this particular subject. It seems like they should be able to - and take advantage of the Horror's potentially larger dicepool - but if they can​, I don't see any reason why they would ever choose not to, which I guess may or may not be a problem.

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              • #22
                The problem with keeping the penalty for how similar the location is on a random jump is that it's a random jump. So you don't know what that is.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                  The problem with keeping the penalty for how similar the location is on a random jump is that it's a random jump. So you don't know what that is.
                  It is de facto either the maximum possible malus or the vanishingly minuscule chance that there is a perfectly identical location somewhere in the world that you can reach with your Lair, because all the intervening levels require you to have been to the place before and done something there by definition and therefore have no real business trucking with the random-draw penalty in the first place.

                  Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                  Satchel, and everyone else, could a Beast open the pathway while using Soul Communion, as their Horror?
                  I'm inclined to treat the Pathway as using a consistent dicepool that doesn't get bigger in the Lair, because the nearest mechanical analogue to the Horror opening a Pathway on its own is the Power + Lair roll from Inflicting Nightmares (which uses neither equivalent of the normal roll's base Attributes) and because as near as I can piece together from how Be My Guest could conceivably work the ability to readily open Pathways to non-Chamber locations and trivially add bonus dice through Lair Trait imposition is already a substantial advantage the Begotten have over any other monster trying to use the Pathways.

                  The question of whether you can be in one location and have your Horror occupy an irrelevant Chamber to open a Primordial Pathway to another location that you're not in is a little less easily pieced together, because while there's a case to be made for it in theory and it makes for a neat bit of spooky-action-at-a-distance there's no examples of it on the books so far and it would dramatically extend the reach of any given Beast despite the importance the splat's mechanics generally place on being physically present. More content is needed to answer this angle on the question, and with any luck the Player's Guide or the Storyteller's Guide will give us something to work from in that regard.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    all the intervening levels require you to have been to the place before and done something there by definition
                    No they don't. If you're in a chamber formed by a breaking point due to the supernatural then finding a spiritually similar one should be a piece of cake. Any breaking point at all could technically qualify for Narrative.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      Any breaking point at all could technically qualify for Narrative.
                      Nope. If the example's distinction between narrative and spiritual similarity is "you carry out the same process but do not produce the same Chamber-generating effect," then the point of similarity for secondhand Chambers is, at best, "the same supernatural being or a very faithful copycat carried out the same process," and if you've taken the time to research the supernatural being that created one of your Chambers then you very probably have an idea of where else it's been active.


                      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                      • #26
                        Or someone experiences the same regular breaking point that allowed a beast to create the chamber because they were there, when they aren't.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                          Or someone experiences the same regular breaking point that allowed a beast to create the chamber because they were there, when they aren't.
                          By definition, that runs it out of the realm of narrative similarity.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • #28
                            How so? The same thing happens, but for the crucial part that allowed a chamber to form. How is that not narratively similar?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                              How so? The same thing happens, but for the crucial part that allowed a chamber to form. How is that not narratively similar?
                              Chambers form from the presence of a Lair Trait in combination with either exceptional successes on Nightmare rolls, the presence of a Beast for a breaking point suffered by a being with Integrity or a suitable equivalent Trait, or the loss of Integrity by a human character due to a meeting with the supernatural. This last option is the one that produces Chambers with an explicit expiration date, so by implication the other two have an arbitrary shelf life but keep their utility as sources of resonance if they align with an existing Chamber.

                              You may notice that it's only the involved of a Beast that allows the other two methods of Chamber integration to work and that Begotten involvement provides the best chance you have for integrating a Chamber without a personal connection to one or both participants in its formation.

                              You may also notice that the examples for spiritual and narrative similarity are only distinguished by the metaphysical component that forms a Chamber. If you haven't hunted someone through the pine forest, it doesn't matter if they had a breaking point there, because the narrative resonance is "you hunted someone through a pine forest." Spiritual resonance only tacks on "and they suffered a breaking point/you got an exceptional success on invoking a Nightmare" as an additional qualifier.

                              Beasts use the Pathways through their Legends being tied to a location. Their Legends by necessity involve them personally or by preestablished ties in the collective unconscious, and if someone suffered a breaking point there and no Beast or other supernatural being was involved, there's no connection to anybody's Legend.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                              • #30
                                A myth eater's gonna be pretty miffed if there ain't no myth to eat.

                                I make no apologies.


                                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
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