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Prohibitive Penalties for Opening Primordial Pathways

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  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    My words include multiple not-uncharitable paraphrases of your words, including "Opening a Primordial Pathway requires only the presence of a Lair Trait corresponding to your Lair; the benefit of a Chamber to making Primordial Pathway rolls is the ability to instantiate your Lair Traits without having any of them present at the time" and take into account the facts that Lair Traits include "there is some manner of fluid in this location that is waist-deep or deeper," "the geography of this location is difficult to navigate," "there is a moderately-sized fire in this location," "this location is as cold as the average walk-in freezer," or "this location is foggy," that the presence of one allows you to invoke the others without a roll or expenditure, and that Chambers can be formed in locations that do not normally contain elements that match one of your Lair Traits.

    If you wish to contest my understanding of your interpretation, or any of the things from the books that I brought up — things that you asked for despite demonstrating a willingness to ignore otherwise clear statements like "your Chambers are relevant to the actual opening of Primordial Pathways, as evidenced by the mention of them in the roll results for the act itself, the use of a direct example of the act in the section on how locations' similarity to Chambers relates to Lair Traits, and the explicit presence of a bonus to use a particular Chamber for them in one of the Satiety Conditions" or interpret them in a manner which is less straightforward than directly implicit but better suits your desired outcome — then by all means continue to be a drain on my day off, but don't waste my time by saying you're done talking and then talking to me about how you're not interested in talking to me.

    You and I evidently have very different thresholds for what constitutes an attempt at conversation.
    Sure. You should do something enjoyable with your day off instead of doing something you consider a drain. Hope you have a good day. ^.^

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    • Originally posted by Paradim View Post

      Sure. You should do something enjoyable with your day off instead of doing something you consider a drain. Hope you have a good day. ^.^
      Don't do that please, it's threadcrapping and adds nothing to the conversation. If you are done speaking with someone then be done with it and move on.


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      • Satchel, please review your point by point addressing of Paradim. Starting off each sentence with "you're suggesting..." comes across as antagonistic, I should have addressed that in my previous post. Please be aware of how your tone may be perceived when formatting your replies so as to avoid this kind of exchange in the future.


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        • I don't know if this has been suggested so far, but I always found the Wits + Resolve dice pool for opening the Primordial Pathways to be strange and rather small. One possible solution would be to change it to Resolve + Occult + Lair, and come up with a quick high Lair Merit that lets you gain an Exceptional Success with 3 Successes.


          Let Him Speak.

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          • Originally posted by GibberingEloquence View Post
            I don't know if this has been suggested so far, but I always found the Wits + Resolve dice pool for opening the Primordial Pathways to be strange and rather small.
            You're not the only one who uses it and the ability to link places to a patch of real estate in a dimension of sensory-feedback through similar observable qualities is more a function of imagination and concentration than application of esoteric variables and mystical gravity. The Pathway's dicepool gets bigger in direct proportion to the length it stays open prior to exceptional success and the overlap method is by design the least secure means of entry available to characters even before accounting for the capacity to hand out spare keys.


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
              According to the 'Accessing Your Lair' section, and the really horribly placed and named 'Chambers and Lair Traits' section, the total dice penalty for trying to open a Pathway from a place similar to your chamber (ie, graveyard to graveyard) is -8.

              If you recreate the circumstances under which you formed the original chamber perfectly, it's still -5 (-3 for material world, not the location of chamber, and -2 for Spiritual similarity).

              This is ludicrous.

              Are people actually playing with these penalties?
              Seeing as the back of the book doesn't refer to the traits modifiers effecting moving through primordial pathways to your lair, and it is not written or referred to in the open the primordial pathway section, I don't use it in my games. I did try briefly after reading on here that some interpret it differently, but the multiple tables and referencing seems unnecessary, missplaced and not intended.

              So no, not everyone uses the 'double penalty's as they're mechanics written for two different abilities.

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              • Maybe it s of little use to post on a discussion so old but...
                Does anybody noticed that the core book states that the hive TRAIT give the apex the ability to open a pathway in every chamber of the lair?
                And on the players guide it states that a beast cannot open a pathway to a chamber that hasn t a TRAIT in common with the beast lair

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                • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                  According to the 'Accessing Your Lair' section, and the really horribly placed and named 'Chambers and Lair Traits' section, the total dice penalty for trying to open a Pathway from a place similar to your chamber (ie, graveyard to graveyard) is -8.

                  If you recreate the circumstances under which you formed the original chamber perfectly, it's still -5 (-3 for material world, not the location of chamber, and -2 for Spiritual similarity).

                  This is ludicrous.

                  Are people actually playing with these penalties?

                  I open Pathways all the time. As others have said, just do it from your Chamber's physical location, and it costs nothing willpower-wise; just takes time. Your Chamber's physical analogue must have at least one Lair Trait in effect anyway, so that knocks off the -3 instantly and makes it at the very least +1 on the roll (For a single Lair Trait). Make sure you go from chamber's physical analogue to the chamber itself and the -3 penalty for 'specified a world but not a specific location' goes away, too. Even with Wits 2 and Resolve 2 that's an easy 5 dicepool, and since you're not burning a Willpower to even attempt it you could use use one for 3 extra dice if you wanted to get 8 dice total; it's very unlikely you'd not get even a single success on that roll, and also as others have said you could just keep trying with 5 dice until you succeed.

                  Outside a Chamber's physical location you have it a great deal rougher, but that's why you try to find or create conditions that match your Lair Traits if you need your full power in a pinch.

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                  • Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post
                    Your Chamber's physical analogue must have at least one Lair Trait in effect anyway, so that knocks off the -3 instantly and makes it at the very least +1 on the roll (For a single Lair Trait).
                    Your prospective Chamber's physical analogue needs at least one Lair Trait in effect during the time that the Chamber was formed, which is not necessarily a consistent feature of the physical location (the physical seed of the Chamber you got from staging a blackout raid isn't immune to daylight, for example) and the actual origin site of a Chamber already gives a +1 to the roll on top of changing out the -3 penalty for opening a Pathway to the material world.

                    Even with Wits 2 and Resolve 2 that's an easy 5 dicepool, and since you're not burning a Willpower to even attempt it you could use use one for 3 extra dice if you wanted to get 8 dice total; it's very unlikely you'd not get even a single success on that roll, and also as others have said you could just keep trying with 5 dice until you succeed.
                    The roll costs 1 Willpower regardless.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                    • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      Your prospective Chamber's physical analogue needs at least one Lair Trait in effect during the time that the Chamber was formed, which is not necessarily a consistent feature of the physical location (the physical seed of the Chamber you got from staging a blackout raid isn't immune to daylight, for example) and the actual origin site of a Chamber already gives a +1 to the roll on top of changing out the -3 penalty for opening a Pathway to the material world.

                      The roll costs 1 Willpower regardless.
                      Originally posted by BtPpage97
                      Beasts can’t simply open Pathways between any realms they
                      choose. As with many aspects of their Lair, it’s the resonance,
                      or similarity, between the Lair and somewhere else that affords
                      access. Opening a Pathway to the exact location from which
                      the Beast created a Chamber is easiest, but desperate Beasts
                      and cunning would-be intruders can use similar locations
                      by spending a point of Willpower during the attempt and
                      incurring an additional dice penalty based on how well the
                      location matches.
                      No, it does not according to the highlighted section above, which strongly suggests that in the Chamber's physical location you just have to make the roll.

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                      • Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post
                        No, it does not according to the highlighted section above, which strongly suggests that in the Chamber's physical location you just have to make the roll.
                        Update your PDF and look again.


                        Resident Lore-Hound
                        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          Update your PDF and look again.

                          Thanks. I will now houserule that you don't have to spend WP to open a chamber from its physical location, because that's one difficulty too many

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                          • Super frustrating that they updated that text, but couldn't bother to make the layout of these sections coherent enough that these discussions aren't necessary.
                            Granted, layout changes may be outside the scope of their errata.

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