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Primordial Dream: Making it More Than Lairs

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  • Primordial Dream: Making it More Than Lairs

    Seeing as how Conquering Heroes has rekindled my interest in Beast, I was looking over the core and realized something: it seemed like Chambers can and do exist outside of Lairs. It makes sense, fears and regrets feed the Dream, that's the whole point-except there aren't really rules for exploring the dream beyond your home and the homes of others.

    Rereading the Insatiable, I think that's the main disconnect between their Subversion power and the cost it requires to get there; they're supposed to be able to enter the Dream in safe areas and then from there find a backdoor into their current target's Lair, except we don't have rules for entering the unclaimed Dream in the first place.

    So, I was thinking, how do we make the Dream itself more exciting? Make it clear there's something off the edge of the map?

    My own contribution is that, at least around Chambers, it looks like the mortal world filtered through a nightmare lens; most of it is flickering, strange, and eerie, but where there's no Chamber, it's unimportant; without a true setting, the story is nonexistent. That leads to some pretty weird space-time warping, as the Dream literally doesn't care enough for consistency where there isn't fixed locations. Where Chambers manifest, though, it becomes stark and almost Earth-like; it's where the dream of humanity meets the dream of the planet, and thus even a Chamber about to be forgotten and lost to the Undefined has the planet's own memory of things like detail or solidity added to it. It's the invariably supernatural effects where the gradual breakdown of the stable Dream is evident; as people forget what scarred them, so to does the memory that powers the Tilt fade into incoherence.



  • #2
    I really think that the Primordial Dream needs to be more fleshed out as an idea. Lairs are specifically described as bubbles in it, with Beasts able to access the rest of it. But there's very little to go on that I can find. I think the Primordial Dream was created to support Beasts, specifically, and I'm having trouble finding any other reference to it, though I'm going over the Astral Realms book for Mage again to see if there's any information there that can help.

    I'd like to see more, honestly. And I want to know what other inhabitants lurk in the darkest regions of nightmares. I do like the thought of Beasts being considered Big Dogs in that neighborhood, though.

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    • #3
      Paradim, I believe you're right in that the Primordial Dream was introduced as a concept in Beast first. The concept works within the framework of the Astral Realms, but it could really use a Core supplement like Book of Spirits & Book of the Dead rather than a specifically Mage the Awakening supplement.

      Leliel, love the idea about being able to explore the Primordial Dream more specifically and about how the experience would be through a sort of default and cloying fear lens. If I could contribute anything to this, I would say that since Chambers are notorious for being difficult to determine size wise it would be interesting to think of them as the Nightmare Oneiros of the Begotten themselves. Hives then would be more like nightmare Temenos Realms, all adding more scope and complexity to the whole trough interconnecting Burrows and Chambers. I'd imagine the Empty Chambers (unclaimed Chambers that occurs naturally after horrific events) would be special prizes to those who brave the Wilds (my default name for the raw Primordial Dream) in search of hidden secrets to grow their Legend. But of course, the Empty Chambers are often home to unique nightmare entities specific to the trauma that birthed them, or the adopted homes of Horrors or the Unfettered. In fact...the Unfettered and unclaimed Horror would be the best at navigating the Wilds in search of these Empty Chambers since they have pure dream logic on their side, and this could add extra hooks to seeking them out.

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      • #4
        I'm not telling anyone to not be creative and fill in the gaps, but patience will bring more information on these less fleshed out areas.


        Aims to write stuff you like.
        WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams
        CofD | Werewolf the Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide
        The Trinity Continuum | ├ćon

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        • #5
          Yeah, so the Beast Players Guide has a section about the Primordial Dream outside of Lairs, how Beasts see the various Astral worlds, that sort of thing.


          Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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          • #6
            iirc, skeleton key doesn't actually say what portion of the Primordial Dream it takes you to. So you might be able to travel into non-lair sections of the primordial dream that way.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              Yeah, so the Beast Players Guide has a section about the Primordial Dream outside of Lairs, how Beasts see the various Astral worlds, that sort of thing.
              Now I'm really looking forward to that book! Alas, I shall have to exercise dreaded patience...

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              • #8
                Woot! Glad to hear Dave.

                Can't wait to see what they've decided to do with the material. This is all just theoretical, but it's always fun to see if we can correctly guess the direction the developers take source material. ^_^

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dusksage View Post
                  Woot! Glad to hear Dave.

                  Can't wait to see what they've decided to do with the material. This is all just theoretical, but it's always fun to see if we can correctly guess the direction the developers take source material. ^_^
                  I have it under very strong non-existent authority that the Primordial Dream is actually a really big nightmare amusement park, filled to the brim with clowns. Beasts? They're actually attractions and their Lairs are the big rides.

                  Clowns all the way down.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Paradim View Post

                    I have it under very strong non-existent authority that the Primordial Dream is actually a really big nightmare amusement park, filled to the brim with clowns. Beasts? They're actually attractions and their Lairs are the big rides.

                    Clowns all the way down.

                    Peter Slaughbal: ...I'm calling a lawyer.


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