Environmental Immunity

[draxdeveloper]

Ok, the book don't give any real deep detail on how this works, some of the are kind of obvious, if your have a extreme cold trait you well, will be immune to extreme cold.
In all examples, i am talking about the trait outside the lair and without using the lair imposing
Ok, now let's start with the minor ones.
movement reducing traits: (cramped,crosswinds,currents,Undergrowth etc)
The characters if can move in those place like it's nothing?
A beast that have cramped trait will move in narrow places with no penalties?
A beast with Undergrowth will just move thought it?
Maze: the beast in a maze like environment will just find the exit?
sealed exits: what’s happens when a beast with this trait find a sealed door, he cam just pass thought it?
unstable: the floor never break under the beast foot? even a frail one?
Now to major ones
First, some major ones can be seen as "upgrades" of the minor ones, some examples
Burning: well, if it's burning then we have extreme heat
darkness: it's a upgrade from low light
And we have others, in all of then if I pick the major I will be immune to the minor? If I pick burning the extreme heat without the burning will affect me? If i pick darkness t]low light will affect me?
Well, now about the traits itself, some of then can have some powerful effects, some examples:
Hurricane: the beast will walk in a hurricane like it's just don't exists?
Disruption: The beast is immune to any kind of disruption? A PEM would fry a beast smartphone?
Mirages: ah... this one. It's says: "Ranging from heat-shimmer to openly supernatural illusions,
visual distortions and hallucinatory images distract and confuse
characters within the affected are" so... The beast is immune to supernatural mirages? any of then?
Suffocating: if I pick underwater, i can be something like aquaman?
Razored: if I walk against a barbed fence nothing will happen?
Expose: this one... I can think in a example outside your lair. but I can think in the same with mirages, the beast will be immune to supernatural effects that expose?

The others it's more straight and i give enough examples.

The point here is that some traits are kind of open to some powerful immunities, the players can and probably will ask what they really can do with this, so I need to know a hard limit to this feature.

[nalak42]

With some of them I choose to interpret it as things like just being adept at knowing where to step. So think undergrowth, weird terrain or the like others would just see you as being absurdly good at picking where you step, so as not to lose much if any speed. Though yes from a mechanical standpoint Beasts are immune to lair traits even if it's mundane. So a flame titan could walk through a burning building not fearing flames or getting blinded by the smoke.

Maze, well you'd obviously know the layout of your own maze, but you wouldn't know the layout of any maze you entered. You would just be of a kind that you can't get turned around or lost in the maze. Like you'd be able to keep an internal map or recognize minor things in the maze that would enable you to tell if you've already been in a spot or not.

[draxdeveloper]

With some of them I choose to interpret it as things like just being adept at knowing where to step. So think undergrowth, weird terrain or the like others would just see you as being absurdly good at picking where you step, so as not to lose much if any speed. Though yes from a mechanical standpoint Beasts are immune to lair traits even if it's mundane. So a flame titan could walk through a burning building not fearing flames or getting blinded by the smoke.

Maze, well you'd obviously know the layout of your own maze, but you wouldn't know the layout of any maze you entered. You would just be of a kind that you can't get turned around or lost in the maze. Like you'd be able to keep an internal map or recognize minor things in the maze that would enable you to tell if you've already been in a spot or not.

So I can be immune to all kind of mirages?
And in exposed I can interpret being immune to Auspex? (can't think in a better example)

[Yossarian]

So I can be immune to all kind of mirages?
And in exposed I can interpret being immune to Auspex? (can't think in a better example)

I wouldn't give it immunity to Auspex. The Trait is about physical exposure, not metaphysical. I would say that in an open desert, or anywhere with lots of sightlines, a Beast with that Trait wouldn't have any trouble finding cover. Or they just wouldn't be subject to whatever bonuses an attacker might get from the Tilt.

[HelmsDerp]

The section on immunity does say it doesn't confer supernatural powers for situations that match descriptively but don't impose a tilt. That's pretty straightforward for Traits that give a numerical penalty or deal damage; The Beast ignores any such penalties or damage that occur but isn't immune to other complications. In the case of purely narrative Traits it gets more confusing. Sealed exits probably wouldn't allow you to walk through a bank vault door from the outside, but it should allow you to exit if you get locked inside. The narrative difference being a door to keep you out of an area as opposed to a door that keeps you from leaving an area.

[draxdeveloper]

But mirages says: Ranging from heat-shimmer to openly supernatural illusions
So mirages give immunity to supernatural illusions

[HelmsDerp]

That's an ST call. The usual rule of thumb is in situations like this you roll Clash of Wills to pierce the illusion. I think it falls under the same category as the example about Needs Must vs the Werewolf power to become untrackable; Figure out a dice pool that makes sense (probably wits or investigation + Lair) and roll against the success gained in casting the illusion.

[ajf115]

That's an ST call. The usual rule of thumb is in situations like this you roll Clash of Wills to pierce the illusion. I think it falls under the same category as the example about Needs Must vs the Werewolf power to become untrackable; Figure out a dice pool that makes sense (probably wits or investigation + Lair) and roll against the success gained in casting the illusion.

Maybe if you're already having a Clash of Wills it gives you a bonus or something?

[Wormwood]

With all these traits, you will have to decide how they manifest in your Lair. To me, that means obviously you are immune to this sort of manifastation, not all of them. e.g. Mirage: I decide to go full Chtulhu and have an Area with impossible Architecture (angles that don't behave as they should, going down a straight path is actually climbing, going up to an edge can mean falling down because it's actually really steep and facing downwards etc) as my Mirage. In area's with similar rules, my beast can navigate just fine. It is not immune to seeing through a Prime-Illusion.

Also, regarding darkness/poor light or Extreme Heat/Burning: No, having the major does not make you immune to the minor.

Extreme Heat is an extended duration problem - being immune to flames does not mean you cannot become dehydrated by lower temperatures. It means contact with fire does not turn your flesh into steak.

Poor light makes it hard to see, because of the twilight state it is. Some people, e.g. me, can see better at night than at (that weird sort of) twilight (where contrasts somehow seem to disappear), and poor lighting makes thinks scary in a different way (contrast "I cannot see anything" vs "Did that shadow just move?").
So I'd argue that no, Major traits do not make you immune to minor traits.

But that's down to your ST, of course.

[nalak42]

I think Wormwood has it about right there. The ST will probably decide how far broad categories like mirage would cover. Especially since if you were absolutely immune to all illusion from Mirage then the kin recognition thing for Beasts would be slightly pointless for dealing with Changelings as you'd immediately see through the glamour.

Yeah god knows it would be absurd if picking a higher level made you immune to all the lesser aspects too. It gets a little weird in some cases like having a suffocating lair means you don't get problems from areas where the atmosphere is hard to breath, or just really thin, but it doesn't mean you no longer need to breath. A rule of thumb to consider as well, don't assume a lair trait gives you something if there's an atavism that explicitly gives that function. (Heart of the Ocean gives one underwater breathing.)

Actually just found a bit in the book that might simplify a lot of discussion.

Beasts are immune to any environmental tilt that matches one of their Lair Traits, both those they impose and those naturally occurring. This does not provide supernatural powers for situations without a tilt. An area might be cramped, but that doesn't mean the Beast can enter mouse holes like they could in their Lair. If they choose to impose their Lair Trait on the area then of course they could, but they have to be careful not to leave the area covered by the tilt while still in the mouse hole.

[draxdeveloper]

I think they should be a little more clear about the lair traits, even because they turn out to be the place where beats shines.