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[w/Princess] Odd Friends-Don't Mess with a Princess and Her Dragon

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  • Wormwood
    replied
    Originally posted by Draca View Post
    I will concede on point 2, that really is a very good point. and was the kind of thing I was really reading into from Arcane's original post, not saying that's where Arcane was going, just that ya the title alone, leads into that.

    Meanwhile on point 1, that last part, only Predators, and potentially Nemeses actually have a high likelihood of Killing people... (and then Predators, and maybe Collectors, eating them, Maybe...) I honestly don't see Tyrants, Ruiners, or Collectors Needing to do that.... Tyrants are about Powerplays and putting others down, Ruiners are about Breaking Stuff that belongs to people, and Collectors are about Getting Stuff that other people Want or even Need(that they then don't even need to care about after)

    I Definitely Concede that under Most Circumstances, they just aren't going to get along, a Full Blown believes in what they're doing or Just Loves Being a Beast Beast and a Princess, but I'm sure there are those out there that would Jump at a chance to make Family Ties with a Princess, and if the Princess can find a Healthy way for the Beast to be themselves, I'm sure they're going to want to as well. so the Title a Princess and her Dragon would very much work in that kind of Situation. Its basically Inverting the Tropes, and Yes Turning the Beast into Prince Adam... >.>

    I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, because you Most Certainly Aren't, I'm just saying that Beasts and Princesses don't necessarily have to Detest each other....
    Just wanted to point out that every beast might feed deeply through killing - a Tyrant might very well Demonstrate his superiority to others via killing one of them, one of the ravager examples given was a hitman, and it was pointed out ravagers prefer to leave someone alive to increase the despair, which does not exclude killing some. Predators are the most likely to kill, but not the only ones.

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  • Draca
    replied
    I will concede on point 2... But that isn't the kind of Family Dinner I even mentioned At All...

    Meanwhile on point 1, that last part, only Predators, and potentially Nemeses actually have a high likelihood of Killing people... (and then Predators, and maybe Collectors, eating them, Maybe...) I honestly don't see Tyrants, Ruiners, or Collectors Needing to do that.... Tyrants are about Powerplays and putting others down, Ruiners are about Breaking Stuff that belongs to people, and Collectors are about Getting Stuff that other people Want, Love, or even Need(that they then don't even need to care about after). Beasts Don't NEED to cause Trauma that will Last a Lifetime, they need to cause Fear, Fear is Temporary, will it teach the person a lesson about what they were afraid of? More than Likely, but is it going to scar them for life? Maybe, Maybe Not, depends on the Beast. Wasn't there a Whole Thread about Beasts Coping with having to hurt people, and how to do it in a Better way? Hell one of the concepts in the Character Concept thread is a Nemesis Cop...

    I Definitely Concede that under Most Circumstances, a Beast who LOVES hurting people and just being a Beastly Beast isn't going to get along with Princesses. But there are Beasts out there trying to do good with what they have, and others that Fight what fate has Forced them to become, I'm sure that some of those would Jump at a chance to make Family Ties with a Princess, and if the Princess can find a Healthy way for the Beast to cope with being a Beast, I'm pretty sure they're going to want to as well... The title of this thread A Princess and her Dragon would very much work in that kind of Situation. Its basically Inverting the Tropes, and Yes Turning the Beast into Prince Adam... Its also Making a Symbiotic Relationship... >.>

    I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, because you Most Certainly Aren't, I'm just saying that Beasts and Princesses don't necessarily have to Detest each other.... Besides its like saying that a Beast dropped into a Mage Campaign is going to have the same personal horror concerns as a Beast dropped into a Changeling campaign, or a Vampire Campaign.... Remember Beasts are the Plug and Play Splat, they're meant to crossover into other splats campaigns, and if one is going to be going into a Princess Campaign, they're going to have different concerns from a game that is a Brood of Begotten.

    Remember Beasts are Still People, they're not Human anymore, because their soul was eaten by a Horror, but they're still People, and Not all People are Monsters, in fact, isn't that one of the tropes that Beast was supposed to be inverting, that the Monster isn't necessarily the bad guy? Heck there's an example character in the book who is a dedicated nurse who does the job noone else wants and stays by the side of those dying alone, Not hurting them herself and in fact kicking the snot out of monsters who prey on the elderly... Again Beasts Don't Need to be Evil Monsters...

    Edit: I do want to say that writing this post at 6:40 AM, on very little sleep, I may have gotten a bit emotional... but I'm too tired to clean up this mess... Just sorry if I come across antagonistically...
    Last edited by Draca; 08-29-2017, 06:44 AM.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    With family dinner I think there's two questions to answer:

    1) Does this remove horror for the Beast? Hunger is Beast's primary source of personal horror. So while I think assisting a Troubadour as she hunts through the mall for outfits and sales to model for her fashion instagram would technially qualify as Family Dinner, I would suggest any Storyteller who sees the potential for that to come up in the game quickly rule against it. I know this skirts close to going against cannon, since helping a Mage with a mystery could be just as horror free, but a Storyteller would find it easy to create horror for Beasts in the Mage setting than in the Princess setting. The things Darkspawn do that horrify and ocassionally traumatise Princesses are not that different to things Beasts do. E.G. kill people then eat them.

    2) Are we still talking about Beasts? A Beast who decides to feed exclusively through Family Dinner with Princesses has very little in common with other Beasts in terms of how they live their day to day life. And because so much of the Begotten's culture and worldview is built around justifying their day to day life the Family Dinner Beast isn't going to share that with them. I'd argue that a Beast who feeds through Family Dinner with Princesses is so different to regular Beasts that they're off topic for a thread about how Princesses & Beasts look at each other. Saying Princesses oppose Beasts, unless they give up everything about being a Beast and try to be a Princess instead is just a longer way of saying Princesses oppose Beasts.

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  • Draca
    replied
    Looking over numerous sources, dear god.... I don't know where I got the thought that Family Dinner could be less harmful.... (think it was the forums) but rereading the section on Family Dinner in the book, then looking through things like Mages being able to get Mana by Killing Living Things.... Yaaaa, then I reread again, and Family Dinner can be done through Nonlethal means, doesn't even technically need to be against Humans... I believe one thing I've heard somewhere around here was Mages tackling a Mystery, because that is a craving for them, it doesn't provide Mana, but supposedly it works? A literal example from the Book is a Werewolf stalking an intruder in his territory, why should those work and Not a Princess going out of her way to Track down and Cleanse Darkened or Tainted Places? And this still doesn't answer Family Dinner with other splats the Princesses can get along with.

    (Please do excuse me, and correct me, if I'm not as read up on Princess as I maybe should be for this discussion, I am sorry in advance)
    Last edited by Draca; 08-29-2017, 04:23 AM.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    I don't know if Family Dinner would even apply with Princesses - doesn't it require a degree of hunting, fear, or predation? It Call's out that a vampire feeding from their Herd isn't good enough, and Princesses don't really do any of that to regain Wisps.

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  • Draca
    replied
    I've got a question, what is Family Dinner with a Princess like? I think people have been overlooking those Beasts who feed using the Family Dinner method, Awakened, Lost, Uratha, and Sin-Eaters can all do their thing in ways that a Princess finds acceptable, someone here said so earlier... And a number of those methods can be used for Family Dinner, not including the activities of the Princesses themselves right? >.>
    Last edited by Draca; 08-28-2017, 10:21 PM.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    sigh, so much for trying to find a way for them to do anything more than Teeth-Clenched Teamwork.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    I think most Radiant Princesses would really disagree with Beasts until they saw what happens when they don't act like bullies and such. Then they'd share a lot of drinks and bemoan how fucking unfair the universe is to both of them in different ways. Then I guess they would try to help them at least channel it into semi-appropriate channels or maybe even try to "cure" them.

    Mirrors and Storms though...label them as Creatures of Darkness. No contest. the hit to their sensitivity for slaughtering them is probably gonna be a big surprise.
    Actually, bring up Sensitivity, a Beast merely feeding would stand a decent chance to trigger it. I doubt that would improve relations either.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    I think most Radiant Princesses would really disagree with Beasts until they saw what happens when they don't act like bullies and such. Then they'd share a lot of drinks and bemoan how fucking unfair the universe is to both of them in different ways. Then I guess they would try to help them at least channel it into semi-appropriate channels or maybe even try to "cure" them.

    Mirrors and Storms though...label them as Creatures of Darkness. No contest. the hit to their sensitivity for slaughtering them is probably gonna be a big surprise.
    Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 08-28-2017, 03:25 PM.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Precisely. It' is a valid Beast PC, but it would take a lot of skill to do and not many people would be interested. I wouldn't be, I'd much rather have that Beast as the antagonist.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
    Even worse than that. If you take "primordial" literally, what is one of the oldest lessons? One which goes back to monkeys: Trust your tribe, trust those who are like you, don't trust stranger, the outsider.

    Playing a nuanced charachter who deliberately encourages racism or something along those lines would take more role playing skill than I have. But as an NPC antagonist for a one shot Hunter or Princess game, I'm sure a lot of players would love to bring that monster down.
    Well, it is a perfectly valid Beast PC method. Granted I don't know too many people that would want to play such a character, but I don't think it is all that far from the various mass murdering and other deplorable character concepts that are open to many of the Splats.

    Actually... It might make a good personal conflict. What are you to do when you realize you've come to hate your own primary method of feeding? Hungers can change, but depending on when the turn happens, they could be very set into their routines.

    It would still take a lot of skill and detachment, yeah.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Even worse than that. If you take "primordial" literally, what is one of the oldest lessons? One which goes back to monkeys: Trust your tribe, trust those who are like you, don't trust stranger, the outsider.

    Playing a nuanced charachter who deliberately encourages racism or something along those lines would take more role playing skill than I have. But as an NPC antagonist for a one shot Hunter or Princess game, I'm sure a lot of players would love to bring that monster down.
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 08-26-2017, 10:31 AM.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    I'll chime in with: the "teaching culture" (leaving aside whether it is merely a justification thrown on their predation to make them feel better) also runs into conflict regarding what lessons they are teaching, in addition to their methods (which others have already covered).

    "Love is a lie" "You have to screw others over to get ahead" and "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut" are all lessons that could be argued to be helping the recipients, depending on worldview.

    They are also ones that will earn the enimity of most Princesses.

    It's not impossible for them to get along, but there are serious roadblocks.

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  • Michael Brazier
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Third, there's this notion that what Beasts do is somehow among the worst things demanded of player splats. I won't dwell hyperlong here because that is it's own discussion and it's been beat to death with a peanut-butter-and-jelly encrusted baseball bat-but among a vampire's casual violation of people for blood, a demon's systemic upheavals and ruinous actions, and everything else in between, a Beast is not really that much different in terms of their actions and effects to other splats that Princess has long indicated a willingness to work out middle grounds with, so it seems arbitrary that Princesses would suddenly deeply object to one splat, particularly since-as established-a good number of them try make good for humanity with their predacity, an attitude lacking from most of the splat Princesses seek out.
    Adding to the other replies: Princesses seldom have good relations with vampires, precisely because vampires have to hurt people on a regular basis just to survive. Most CofD splats don't have that problem. Werewolves, mages, changelings and Sin-eaters can violate people to gain supernatural benefits, but they aren't obliged to, so Princesses start out on neutral terms with them. Beasts, though, are much like vampires - hurting people to live is their default; that means Princesses are bound to dislike them as a class.

    It's possible for a Beast and a Princess to work together despite that ... but it's not exactly likely.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    First off, the teaching culture of Beasts means that, actually, Beasts are inclined to the improvement of humanity as well, honing their wisdom and instincts and acting as a barrier against worst things out there than humanity is not prepared for, much like anything else. While not the same burning passion for Beasts as it is for Princesses, you can't have a culture of that sort without a significant buy-in, and so Beasts on the whole must at least pay token to the idea, a facet that any Princess can stoke up if they deal with more lax members of the Begotten-but honestly, they probably don't have to. Most they might need to do is provide guidance and counter-balance.
    Beasts claim they empower and embolden humanity. But do they really, or do just try their best in a situation where there is no room for well meaning amateurs? If you want to teach people a lesson you need to pick the right student (that's hard), the right lesson (that's hard), and teach it well (that's also hard). If you get any of those wrong you could inflict serious harm on the student, and that's true for a regular psychiatrist let alone one who uses psychic nightmares as a teaching aid. Beasts have almost no supernatural advantages to help make their lessons a positive influence on humanity. There's Mimir's Wisdom, and that's pretty much it until you reach Lair 6 and can start raising traits past 5. However they have a massive supernatural disadvantage in that they have to use fear as a teaching tool. So chances are Beasts are going to be getting it wrong a lot, and even when they don't. What gives them the right to gamble with other people's lives?

    In contrast Princesses are stuffed to the gills with advantages when it comes to teaching lessons. A 0 exp Princesses can have 6+ dots of Empathy or Academics with a speciality in educational theory. Princesses can learn aura vision, they can magically boost other people's Attributes and Skills. Princesses have a Charm that means a lesson they're trying to teach becomes easily memorable. They can bind destiny so that fate itself considers them to be somebody's teacher and makes it happen.

    A Princess who sees a Beast teaching lessons may well agree that the Beast has the best of intentions. But she's still going to ask very tough questions about his competence as a teacher and his ethics: Does the Beast get informed consent before teaching a lesson? Is there a way to teach that same lesson without terrorising the student? Odds are a Princess is going to insist that a Beast teaches people properly or not at all. And a Princess' definition of "properly" is unlikely to make a satisfying meal.

    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    In this way, Beasts empower and embolden humanity much the same way as the demons of Pandemonium do, by helping people confront their weakness and failures and gain a full knowledge of themselves-and I don't see anyone proposing Princesses ardently hate Mastigos for their acceptance of that buy-in.
    This is a fundamental misunderstanding of why Princesses dislike Beasts. Princesses don't have any issue with asking people to confront their weaknesses and failures. What they object to is harming people and/or taking people's autonomy away.

    Unlike Beasts Mastigos have a ton of supernatural advantages to help them be competent teachers and avoid harming people, and like Princesses their techniques are completely compatible with getting a professional licence and/or informed consent.

    But a lot of Princesses would take issue any with any Mastigos who's hubristic enough to start working on people without getting their consent first.

    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Second, out of the combined splats and fansplats, few pairings are as invested in reaching out to other supernaturals and connecting with them as Princesses and Beasts-and not only is that a shared trait, it's a street that goes both ways. Sure, Beasts want their family to be at home with their monstrous selves while Princesses unite with them to lead them towards humanity, both personal and grand scale-but these things are not mutually exclusive and a significant part of both games is that each is prone to a reduced and simplified world view that often needs expansion.
    Objection. That is not a significant part of Princess. Quite the opposite, Radiant Princesses are influenced in their world views by five different Queens who's philosophies are, on the surface, often directly opposed. By digging into these sources and finding a unique combination and interpretation that suits her a Princess comes up with a mature and nuanced world view. Meanwhile the Princesses who do have an overly simplistic world view are the Court of Mirrors, an antagonist splat who exist to provide a "but for the grace of god" object lesson.

    The Invocation mechanics are directly encourage this behaviour, as a Princess who doesn't have a nuanced view is essentially putting all her eggs in one basket.

    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    But putting aside the philosophy for a second, the two's perchance for connection means that both of them are of an open mind for discussion, understanding, and empathy. They are the most likely splats to sit down and have a long dinner and conversation trying to get one another out of the bunch, the most likely splats to talk things out. They are both practiced and focused on this sort of thing, of appealing and making themselves available as help. That does a lot to generate goodwill, even if they have such striking differences in their approaches.
    No matter how long and how politely Princesses and Beasts talk to each other, the fact is that one has to hurt people to feed*, and the other exists to fight pain and suffering. Malus had it right, it's like 007 sitting down to dinner with a bond villain.

    * I know you can get around this with Family Dinner; but any argument that says Princesses will be ok with Beasts that stop acting like Beasts and start acting like Princesses is completely off topic for a thread about what Princesses think about Beasts or Beasts think about Princesses.

    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    so it seems arbitrary that Princesses would suddenly deeply object to one splat, particularly since-as established-a good number of them try make good for humanity with their predacity
    I point out that Princesses object to Leviathans as much as they object to Beasts; and there can be no question that I have a bias against Leviathan because I wrote 2E.
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 08-26-2017, 06:36 AM.

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