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[w/Princess] Odd Friends-Don't Mess with a Princess and Her Dragon

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  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    At any rate. Back to Beast/Princess relations. Princess likes to do crossover things with Embassies ... so what might an Embassy to the Dark Mother look like? I think it's possible, in Princess terms, because the Dark Mother is basically an abstract concept of Threats You Must Fear And Avoid that can be separated from the corruptive, entropic Darkness. Ideas that have occurred to me are the monstergirl trope and taking the whole "lessons through fear" business and running with it.
    I think it would work a lot better as a general Embassy to Fear with at most a few nods to Beast, similarly to the Embassy to Stories.

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  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Going back to my earlier comment about Beasts in Alhambra, I do think they'd have more social latitude than the average citizen of the City Under Siege... (And I just realized the associations one could make between Alhambra and Rapture, the City Under the Sea). They'd also be the ones most advocating reconquering the Rebellious Providences, since they'd have more freedom there.

    ​Like I also said, the Queen of Tears would probably use them either as recruiters (using their fear inducing powers to convince people that Alhambra is the only place safe) or as ambassadors to the World of Darkness's other monstrous denizens (or infiltrators...)


    ​Also, thanks to a earlier post by King of Ravens, I have this glorious image in my head of a Stormite dumping Hollywood Acid over a tainted building and leaving behind a "For Sale" sign as she leaves, only for a Beast to immediately step out of the shadows a 'yoink' the sign up.

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  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    At any rate. Back to Beast/Princess relations. Princess likes to do crossover things with Embassies ... so what might an Embassy to the Dark Mother look like? I think it's possible, in Princess terms, because the Dark Mother is basically an abstract concept of Threats You Must Fear And Avoid that can be separated from the corruptive, entropic Darkness. Ideas that have occurred to me are the monstergirl trope and taking the whole "lessons through fear" business and running with it.
    Yeah, that does sound interesting! Maybe it could be called "Embassy to the Grim" with an informal name for the members of Shepherds (As in Dark Shepherds)

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  • Michael Brazier
    replied
    Originally posted by Mangaholic13 View Post
    ​MB, I think part of the problem is that you're using the initial draft.
    Bear in mind that I was replying to a post about why the Kickstarter draft got such a hostile reception. I'm aware that the final version toned things down a great deal, and the supplements have gone further.

    Originally posted by Mangaholic13 View Post
    The Heroes have a role, a role they don't resist, because they aren't as self aware about it as the Beasts.
    Well, there's the thing - why can't Heroes be as self-aware about their roles as the Beasts are, or can be? The Hero who hunts all Beasts with sublime confidence that he's doing God's work is only the counterpart of the Beast who feeds his Hunger by tormenting whoever catches his attention. I firmly believe that if the game had allowed from the start for Heroes who see their compulsion to kill Beasts as a temptation instead of a divine commission, similar to Beasts who try to restrain their Hungers, the initial missteps that drew so much hostility wouldn't have been made and the game would do a much better job of addressing its stated themes.

    ---

    At any rate. Back to Beast/Princess relations. Princess likes to do crossover things with Embassies ... so what might an Embassy to the Dark Mother look like? I think it's possible, in Princess terms, because the Dark Mother is basically an abstract concept of Threats You Must Fear And Avoid that can be separated from the corruptive, entropic Darkness. Ideas that have occurred to me are the monstergirl trope and taking the whole "lessons through fear" business and running with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • HelmsDerp
    replied
    Disgaea is great Beast inspiration, especially 4. Valvatorez is a perfect example of a (former) Apex who devoted himself completely to punishing the guilty to inspire the innocent to remain that way. His ultimate signature move even looks like unleashing a Horror.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Originally posted by Leliel View Post
    Actually, I'm wondering if the Inguma have an easier time dealing with the Inner Light than other Families. Their existence, after all, is dependent on humans continuing to fear themselves...and tacit in that is the quiet fear they may deserve it more than you. As a result, Outsiders also embody what is feared about Hope and the Bright Dream; that you are part of the problem and this thing is the solution.
    ​That is indeed interesting, especially since Inguma arose from the fears created by society. Actually, it makes me think of Disgaea 4 and how humans being afraid of each other is affecting the demons of the Netherworld. Actually, Disgaea might make an interesting source of inspiration for Beast...

    ​But I digress. I think an Outsider could represent the more subtle fear of humans not wanting the Princesses help.

    I'd actually love to hear what KoR has to say about that...

    ​Also, can we all at least agree that Princesses and Beasts would definitely team up to attack Chiron Group or The Ashwood Abbey?
    Last edited by Mangaholic13; 03-10-2018, 12:56 AM.

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  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post

    Yes. That was precisely the problem. The game (in its initial draft) described Heroes as doing to Beasts what Beasts did to ordinary people ... and condemned the Heroes for doing it, while excusing if not praising the Beasts.
    ​MB, I think part of the problem is that you're using the initial draft. That was the initial draft, where Heroes were the Beasts victims coming for revenge and treated like the bad guy for it. Now, Heroes are simply beings like Beasts, connected to the Primordial Dream, and draw to exterminate those who make waves within it, like a Beast that actively resists feeding it's Horror and thus is unintentionally giving everyone in the Tri-State area nightmares. The Heroes have a role, a role they don't resist, because they aren't as self aware about it as the Beasts.

    Further, Heroes are no longer (at least within game lore, if not the community) as evil for doing what they do, with Beasts admitting "If I act like a complete monster, Heroes are gonna come knocking on my door. It's a fact of life."

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post

    If the game said frankly that Heroes are people forced into an archetypal role, just as Beasts are, and gave them the same kind of latitude that Beasts have to deal with their archetype, I don't think it would have raised nearly as much of a ruction. That is, if McFarland had designed Heroes to be possible PCs in the first place, and not as permanent antagonists, the game wouldn't come off as endorsing what Beasts do.
    But the game is called Beasts the Primordial, not Heroes the Legendary. You don't play Hunter to be a monster. The game is suppose to be about the Beasts, not the Heroes; at least, it's suppose to in keeping with the subversion of the Mono-myth.


    ​I don't know, maybe we just have different views on Beast...
    Last edited by Mangaholic13; 03-10-2018, 01:14 AM.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Leliel View Post
    Could we go back to actually discussing the Begotten's relationship with Princess, please? Discussing how morally culpable Beasts are is fine, but it's just more interesting in the context of Princess rather than fight the same battle again.

    Actually, I'm wondering if the Inguma have an easier time dealing with the Inner Light than other Families. Their existence, after all, is dependent on humans continuing to fear themselves...and tacit in that is the quiet fear they may deserve it more than you. As a result, Outsiders also embody what is feared about Hope and the Bright Dream; that you are part of the problem and this thing is the solution.
    1) Considering that a considerable part community that is heavily wrapped in the "Beasts are irredeemable assholes" do also have investment in keeping Princess from playing nice, that seems like a rather hopeful wish, and there's a reason I'm not a magical girl. Just saying.

    2) I haven't read up on the Inguma yet(curse my instincts to read books through as per standard form meeting my job), but from what I've heard they definitely make for compelling emissaries none the less.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 03-08-2018, 04:31 PM.

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  • Michael Brazier
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post
    Heroes don't just 'disagree' with the Begotten. They want to murder them just for existing, even if they've done absolutely nothing more than cause a few bad dreams. Even if they put their monstrous side completely to sleep and live normal, mortal lives harming nothing and no one.
    Yes. That was precisely the problem. The game (in its initial draft) described Heroes as doing to Beasts what Beasts did to ordinary people ... and condemned the Heroes for doing it, while excusing if not praising the Beasts.

    If the game said frankly that Heroes are people forced into an archetypal role, just as Beasts are, and gave them the same kind of latitude that Beasts have to deal with their archetype, I don't think it would have raised nearly as much of a ruction. That is, if McFarland had designed Heroes to be possible PCs in the first place, and not as permanent antagonists, the game wouldn't come off as endorsing what Beasts do.

    Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post
    Beast is exactly that game if you choose to play it that way, but your issue seems to be that it doesn't arbitrarily force Beasts to suffer some catastrophic mechanical loss for choosing not to play the game as noble monsters fighting to overcome their nature.
    There's nothing arbitrary about people who act as outlaws being cast out from society - which is the sort of mechanical loss I had in mind. Embracing the role of a monster should cause detachment from humanity, and throw up obstacles to passing as a mortal. (And this applies equally to Heroes, in the form of an inability to live quietly without the excitement of a heroic quest.)

    And you know, all the 2ed games - except Promethean, where becoming a normal human is the whole point - allow players to make characters who embrace their monstrous nature and don't have much truck with humanity. It's quite possible to play a vampire with low Humanity, a mage with low Wisdom, or a werewolf that's usually on the spirit side of Harmony. They don't deal well with mortals, but they usually don't need to. The "noble monsters fighting to overcome their nature" are an option. I believe Promethean is thought to be limited because it really does require the players to follow that script.

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  • Leliel
    replied
    Could we go back to actually discussing the Begotten's relationship with Princess, please? Discussing how morally culpable Beasts are is fine, but it's just more interesting in the context of Princess rather than fight the same battle again.

    Actually, I'm wondering if the Inguma have an easier time dealing with the Inner Light than other Families. Their existence, after all, is dependent on humans continuing to fear themselves...and tacit in that is the quiet fear they may deserve it more than you. As a result, Outsiders also embody what is feared about Hope and the Bright Dream; that you are part of the problem and this thing is the solution.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paradim
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

    True. But allegories eventually break, and there’s a spectrum here I believe.

    I mean, I remember the whole Beasts-as-social-minorities thing back from the Kickstarter, and then someone rebutted that by saying something along the lines of: “Say, are we sure that Beasts are the ‘supposed’ to be the oppressed and the downtrodden when they can, you know, turn into dragons and breathe fire?”

    Well, gay people don't turn into flaming dragons (well, maybe half right ^.^), but a comparison doesn't need to be perfect to see some commonality in life experiences, especially those of being ostracized, shunned, and finding community in those similar to you.

    Maybe it's not intended by the authors, but the work is what the work is, and if some people see it in that and they find the game more enjoyable for it then more power to them. I mean, what's the alternative here? Telling them they're not allowed to relate to some fictional material? ...I don't really joke about that... I came across that attitude elsewhere and honestly, I found that oppressive, offensive, controlling and abusive.

    It's just interpretation of art.

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  • Eternal Darkness
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    This is inaccurate. All the CofD game lines give players the option to play unrepentant monsters, and Vampire doesn't let them play anything else.
    Factually incorrect. Vampires can choose to feed off of willing individuals with their full consent and without any need for coercion.

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    What Beast does that no other game does is endorse unrepentant monsters - it approves the IC belief held by its characters that there's nothing wrong at all with making mortals suffer.
    Which was exactly the point. It's the part where they are actually monstrous, rather than optionally monstrous in a setting that's supposed to be rife with horror of all kinds - personal and otherwise.

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    The Kickstarter preview draft went so far as to claim that those who disagreed with the Begotten on this point were homicidal maniacs, more dangerous to the mortals than the Beasts were, and totally unjustified - that's why it was hastily rewritten.
    Heroes don't just 'disagree' with the Begotten. They want to murder them just for existing, even if they've done absolutely nothing more than cause a few bad dreams. Even if they put their monstrous side completely to sleep and live normal, mortal lives harming nothing and no one. It's not optional for Heroes to leave Beasts in peace except for the ones with higher Integrity; they will need to hunt and kill Beasts sooner or later, and to make matters worse they don't care if they harm or kill innocent bystanders, including their own allies and supporters, in the process. No matter how much you dislike the way that it's written, that's how it works within the setting. Almost like...they have an inescapable hunger to feed.

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    A game where you played a person who's been forced into the role of an archetypal monster - a being compelled to act in ways that make him a social outcast and a target for all defenders of the social order - but who is capable, if he chooses, of being more than that role, and can sometimes get mortals to treat him as an individual and not an archetype, could have been made from the materials that went into Beast. But Beast is not that game. To be that game it would need, at minimum, a tension encoded in the mechanics between Legend and Life, and a clear sense that magical power comes at the expense of social position - which the other CofD games do by loading disadvantages onto a high power stat and a low Integrity-equivalent, and which Beast deliberately doesn't do at all.
    Beast is exactly that game if you choose to play it that way, but your issue seems to be that it doesn't arbitrarily force Beasts to suffer some catastrophic mechanical loss for choosing not to play the game as noble monsters fighting to overcome their nature. That narrative wouldn't fit every character and every monster archetype, and forcing it onto every Beast character would change it from 'Build your own monster' to being exactly like every other supernatural type in the setting with slightly different mechanics. As it stands right now, a Beast chronicle can be focused on learning the true meaning of family from a werewolf pack, delving into the nature of human thought with a mage buddy, acting as the muscle for a Changeling freehold, or any number of other premises. This would be impossible if every Beast was required by some intrusive mechanic to adhere to a specific moral and behavioral code.

    As a game, beast does exactly what it set out to do - allow you to make any kind of monster you can imagine, and play that monster in any kind of monster story you see fit alongside other supernatural creatures that are different from you but to whom you can still relate to. That's a success in my book, but if you choose not to see that because you wanted something different, that is no fault of the game. Your assumptions and biases are to blame.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Paradim View Post


    Maybe because some people who have those real-life issues can enjoy seeing something they can relate to on a level and engage with it in the game as something that has some measure of power that they do not in their usual life?

    I mean, I'm one of them.
    True. But allegories eventually break, and there’s a spectrum here I believe.

    I mean, I remember the whole Beasts-as-social-minorities thing back from the Kickstarter, and then someone rebutted that by saying something along the lines of: “Say, are we sure that Beasts are the ‘supposed’ to be the oppressed and the downtrodden when they can, you know, turn into dragons and breathe fire?”

    Leave a comment:


  • Paradim
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    See, this is why I’m baffled about projecting real-life issues both social and moral to the CofD games-as-written.

    At some point, it doesn’t work.

    Maybe because some people who have those real-life issues can enjoy seeing something they can relate to on a level and engage with it in the game as something that has some measure of power that they do not in their usual life?

    I mean, I'm one of them.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    See, this is why I’m baffled about projecting real-life issues both social and moral to the CofD games-as-written.

    At some point, it doesn’t work.

    Leave a comment:

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