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[w/Princess] Odd Friends-Don't Mess with a Princess and Her Dragon

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  • Wormwood
    replied
    Going as far as dying for others does not really mean you are not scared. Humans do plenty of things that scare them, for different reasons, everyday.

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  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
    Swords embrace self sacrifice. So if fear exists to keep you safe, what does fear say to someone who is able to willingly die for another?

    Does fear think they need a double sized lesson to keep them safe? Or does fear think they've gone beyond the need for lessons? (Or does fear just say "safe" doesn't apply to Princesses since they come back from the dead anyway).
    Or maybe they need a lesson in how their self-sacrificing nature hurts others? I don't really know, Beasts also might decide, "You're not afraid to die for others? I can respect that."

    Clubs... I guess a Nemesis dedicated to scaring people who pollute might be inclined to work with a Clubs Princess, though they might argue about whether using fear is a good tool for environmentalism or not.

    Spades... part of me wants to say they might team up with a Beast to create the ultimate Horror Attraction.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Mangaholic13 View Post
    Hearts: This is something that confuses me: How is Civilization the opposite of Beasts? Civilization has just as many scary things as Primordial lurking in it. I'd think one of the first lessons Beasts taught to man was 'It's dangerous to go it alone, there is safety in numbers." Though this might just be difference of opinion, in which case, okay.
    The Primordial Dream is, to quote Dave Brockshaw "humanity's evolutionary instincts and underlying animal psychology."

    By Civilisation I mean that Hearts represents all the attempts to control and tame that inner animal through rules and social traditions.

    Originally posted by Mangaholic13 View Post
    [*]Swords - Could you elaborate a bit more on this one? I'm a little confused by what you're trying to say here.
    Swords embrace self sacrifice. So if fear exists to keep you safe, what does fear say to someone who is able to willingly die for another?

    Does fear think they need a double sized lesson to keep them safe? Or does fear think they've gone beyond the need for lessons? (Or does fear just say "safe" doesn't apply to Princesses since they come back from the dead anyway).

    Also, noticed you didn't say anything about Spades or Clubs.
    Nothing came to mind.

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  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
    • Mirrors: I agree. Beasts would look at Mirrors as yet more self absorbed Heroes. However unlike actual Heroes Mirrors ego is based on the what they are, not who they fight, which means depending on the Beast they might see an opportunity to have that positive relationship with a Hero that occasionally gets brought up as an idea. Alternatively they might consider the Princess an easy mark to trick into an extra elaborate scheme to get one over the Heroes.
    • Storms: There's a third option. Ignore each other. Most Storms have powers that detect the Darkness, so they'll know Beasts are something else. If a Beast dosn't object to it's Dark Kin being slaughtered simply for being what they are it could just ignore the Fury. It's probably also a good way to get hold of new Chambers. The Court of Storms really does't do subtle. Let the Fury burn something to the ground and you have some newly vacant real estate with a rich supernatural history.
    • Tears: It's up to you if Alhambra has Beasts, but if it does expect them to be solidly under the Queen of Tears' thumb. Queens aren't remotely close to Archmages in power, but they're still an ascended-Splat. You still really don't want to make trouble in a Queen's back yard.
    • Diamonds - without a doubt go all in on the lessons angle. The Court of Diamonds is full of teachers, schoolgirls running study groups, teacher's pets, etc. How a Beast reacts to seeing someone who gets actual teaching magic and uses it is the million dollar question: Do they feel a burning need to get one over the Diamond and prove that they don't need magic to be a teacher? Do they try very hard to get Kinship Nightmares* so they can get lessons magic too? Do they ignore the Diamond and hope she won't notice them and critique their Lesson Plans?
    • Hearts - the athisisis of Beasts. Beasts are Primordial. Hearts are Civilisation. I could see Beasts wondering how they even function so far removed from the primordial dream.
    • Swords - here's a question Beasts must answer. If you love someone enough to sacrifice your life without fear have you mastered their lessons? A student more in need of them than any other? Or hare you just simply understood exactly what it means to be a serial reincarnationist?

    * To be honest, I'm not sure if that actually would give you teaching powers. "You will fail if you don't study harder" sounds like something a Princess of Diamonds would be scared of; not why she's scary to others. Kinship Nightmares for Diamonds would probably be something like: "You're nice blue collar culture is going to become obsolete", or "Everything you think you know is in question".
    • Tears: Yeah, I totally agree with you TKR, any Alhambran Beasts would be under the Queen's thumb. Heck, she'd undoubtably be Alhambra's Apex (if you wanted to include that sort of thing). I really just joking about Alhambra's Cultural Posturing (and an 8-Bit Theatre reference). I'm not really sure how Beasts and Tears would really interact.
    • Diamonds: Maybe the Beast could be the Stern Teacher to Diamond's Cool Teacher? As for Kinship nightmares, I'd think a good one would force a Princesses' Sensitivity onto a person, maybe call it, "Penance Stare".
    • Hearts: This is something that confuses me: How is Civilization the opposite of Beasts? Civilization has just as many scary things as Primordial lurking in it. I'd think one of the first lessons Beasts taught to man was 'It's dangerous to go it alone, there is safety in numbers." Though this might just be difference of opinion, in which case, okay.
    • Swords - Could you elaborate a bit more on this one? I'm a little confused by what you're trying to say here.
    Also, noticed you didn't say anything about Spades or Clubs.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    • Mirrors: I agree. Beasts would look at Mirrors as yet more self absorbed Heroes. However unlike actual Heroes Mirrors ego is based on the what they are, not who they fight, which means depending on the Beast they might see an opportunity to have that positive relationship with a Hero that occasionally gets brought up as an idea. Alternatively they might consider the Princess an easy mark to trick into an extra elaborate scheme to get one over the Heroes.
    • Storms: There's a third option. Ignore each other. Most Storms have powers that detect the Darkness, so they'll know Beasts are something else. If a Beast dosn't object to it's Dark Kin being slaughtered simply for being what they are it could just ignore the Fury. It's probably also a good way to get hold of new Chambers. The Court of Storms really does't do subtle. Let the Fury burn something to the ground and you have some newly vacant real estate with a rich supernatural history.
    • Tears: It's up to you if Alhambra has Beasts, but if it does expect them to be solidly under the Queen of Tears' thumb. Queens aren't remotely close to Archmages in power, but they're still an ascended-Splat. You still really don't want to make trouble in a Queen's back yard.
    • Diamonds - without a doubt go all in on the lessons angle. The Court of Diamonds is full of teachers, schoolgirls running study groups, teacher's pets, etc. How a Beast reacts to seeing someone who gets actual teaching magic and uses it is the million dollar question: Do they feel a burning need to get one over the Diamond and prove that they don't need magic to be a teacher? Do they try very hard to get Kinship Nightmares* so they can get lessons magic too? Do they ignore the Diamond and hope she won't notice them and critique their Lesson Plans?
    • Hearts - the athisisis of Beasts. Beasts are Primordial. Hearts are Civilisation. I could see Beasts wondering how they even function so far removed from the primordial dream.
    • Swords - here's a question Beasts must answer. If you love someone enough to sacrifice your life without fear have you mastered their lessons? A student more in need of them than any other? Or hare you just simply understood exactly what it means to be a serial reincarnationist?

    * To be honest, I'm not sure if that actually would give you teaching powers. "You will fail if you don't study harder" sounds like something a Princess of Diamonds would be scared of; not why she's scary to others. Kinship Nightmares for Diamonds would probably be something like: "You're nice blue collar culture is going to become obsolete", or "Everything you think you know is in question".

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  • Mangaholic13
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    I still think Princesses of Diamonds would be the type to try to go on a long quest to "cure" Beasts. Sure, that's a morally grey proposition, but this is the Chronicles of Darkness.
    On this topic, how would the other Radiant Courts react to Beasts? And how would Beasts react to the various Courts. I feel like there is a pretty good idea how relations between Beasts and Twilight Courts might go:

    Mirrors: Want Beasts to do what they tell them. Beasts think, "Oh great, a self-absorbed Hero with magic powers." (NOTE: VERY GENERALIZATION, AND MY OPINION, PROVIDING PLENTY OF SALT).
    Storms: Either help them destroy the Darkness or be destroyed. Beasts think, "Oh no, a Ax-Crazy Hero with magic powers!" (AGAIN HERE IS YOUR SALT, IT IS ALL NATURAL).
    Tears: "Our Beasts do it better." "How?" "Because they're from Alhambra." "Do you accept any kind of counter argument?" "No, because we don't accept fictional arguments." "Oh great..." (I HOPE THE SALT HASN'T HURT ANYONE'S HEART).

    So, what do other people think? KingsRaven, MB, anybody?
    Last edited by Mangaholic13; 03-09-2018, 11:59 PM.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    I still think Princesses of Diamonds would be the type to try to go on a long quest to "cure" Beasts. Sure, that's a morally grey proposition, but this is the Chronicles of Darkness.
    Fun fact. Ride to Damascus' Laircrafting grew out of Princess brainstorming, for a verity of obvious reasons I felt it worked best as Hunter material. The other thing from that brainstorming was that Princesses and Beasts could both directly mess with each other's integrity track: Princesses could raise Satity by converting wisps into tasty fear and shoving it down the Beast's throat while Beasts could use a Kinship Nightmare to convince a Princess the world cannot be saved and lower a Princess' Belief directly for a scene.

    Then naturally I left it in on the bench since crossover specific rules don't go in the Princess PDF. Though since Princesses can Talecraft (Embassy to Stories) they can Laircraft; that is, if you rule Ride to Damascus' work on Beasts and not the hunter antagonists called "beasts" that are very similar to, but mechanically distinct from, the Begotten.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    *cries for what this thread could have been*
    What were you hoping for?

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    *cries for what this thread could have been*

    I still think Princesses of Diamonds would be the type to try to go on a long quest to "cure" Beasts. Sure, that's a morally grey proposition, but this is the Chronicles of Darkness.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    A rule that Family Ties only applies to the identity the Beast actually knows has the same effect, in a way that better fits the logic of both games.
    I don't think so. The risk is being outed as a Princess against your will. If a Princess gets the benefits when she chooses to reveal her secret to the Beast she's still protected against unwilling discovery.

    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    When a large part of your theme is wrapped up in this idea that you suffer from continual exhaustion and an onslaught of terror, when the main thing you took away from Sailor Nothing is that you never get to stop, you don't suddenly get to revoke all of that when the monsters show up with a hearty" Cousin!", a pack of beers in one hand, and a big toothy grin on their face. If your theme is "you don't get to let go", you don't get to let go.
    Not only is this a misunderstanding of Princess. It's also a misunderstanding of Sailor Nothing.

    In Sailor Nothing Himie did stop. She couldn't stop being a magical girl, that's much is true. But she stopped isolating herself. She stopped carrying the fate of the city on her shoulders. She built a team that could provide her with emotional support and share the load.

    Princess takes that idea from Sailor Nothing, just as much as it takes the idea of exhaustion and it's baked into the mechanics. Taking time of to spend quality time with friends and family is one of the primary ways of regaining Wisps. The section "Mood: Exhaustion" says it explicitly: "The only way she can survive is if she can find friends to support her and allies to share the load."

    So no, Exhaustion doesn't mean that Princesses never get to stop and take a break. It means that Princesses are workaholics who take on far too much responsibility if they don't have someone ready to step in and tell them to take a break; and it means that Storytellers should directly challenge Princesses via this flaw in their psychology.

    Originally posted by vernuf View Post
    Therefore, it would violate the contract Beast has with its players far more than the one Princess has with its players.
    "More" doesn't come into it. The Princess rules are written to satisfy the Princess contract. The Beast rules are written to satisfy the Beast contract. When you play crossover you either take the rules as written and see what happens, which being crossover usually violates some games contract somewhere, or you house rule.

    Personally I like to take the rules as written and see what breaks. If I wasn't going to break something I'd just play a single splat game.

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  • vernuf
    replied
    Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

    Eh? The mechanics as to why have already been discussed. Princesses are effectively normal when not transformed - Beasts aren't kin with normal humans. It's right there.y.

    Practical magic. No, they're not effectively normal. No normal person can make the wind blow away evidence of their doings especially to the point of preventing supernatural methods of finding that evidence. No normal person can rewrite the past even a little. No normal person can make a person who's mediocre at a giving skill become better at it then the best in the world even for just one attempt.

    Further, the theme in the Princess is "Fighting Fear." One of the themes in Beast is "You don't chose your family." Another is "To thine own self be true." As such, Family Resemblance is more important to Beast than hiding the truth of whom one is is to Princess which has no theme related to that while Beast does have a theme against that. Therefore, it would violate the contract Beast has with its players far more than the one Princess has with its players.
    Last edited by vernuf; 09-29-2017, 02:51 AM.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Actually, my mind stumbled on two more point of shared points that make for Beast/Princess interactions both more shared and thereby more likely to nuanced-that idea of choice of monstrosity and the claiming of legacies.

    Unlike many of the other monsters in the Chronicles world, both Beasts and Princesses make a choice to become what they are, and that choice is often in made of a sense of a legacy-the Beasts accept their Final Devouring in the light not only of the realization of not only what the Horror is, but what it does in it's relation the larger world as expressed through the Dark Mother, and the Hopeful through their accepting the hope and promise of the World of Light and taking on the mantle of Nobility as a result of that. In both cases, each side sees the world in a grand scale that also scales deeply down to the personal, and are personally empowered by the response to the darkness that means nothing. That ones finds serenity and empowerment that can manifest as a vicious grace and brutal kindness(not always) and that the other responds with zeal and desperation against that can manifest as intense inspiration and blind faith(not always) is on one hand, yes, a deep divide that does not easily reconcile, but on the other hand is a shared experience that not many other can relate to and certainly don't have a choice about. While it is easy for those who prefer simpler views to take to aggression against each other, those monsters who give more consideration may find that their responses and choices are, deep down, not so different after all, an absurdist response that may yet yield better worlds, worlds that have attained some kind of serenity.

    Again, not saying it always happens that Beasts and Princesses find cause with one another-just maybe more than assumed.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 09-29-2017, 02:07 AM.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    One thing I want to bring up in regards to the Kin/Not Kin Argument is that there is a consequence with the route Princess took.

    When a large part of your theme is wrapped up in this idea that you suffer from continual exhaustion and an onslaught of terror, when the main thing you took away from Sailor Nothing is that you never get to stop, you don't suddenly get to revoke all of that when the monsters show up with a hearty" Cousin!", a pack of beers in one hand, and a big toothy grin on their face. If your theme is "you don't get to let go", you don't get to let go.

    If the idea is that the horror for a Princess is the adversity they face, then Princesses should be just as susceptible to the horror that a Beast brings-the revelation that maybe their humanity is a flawed and incomplete argument in need of reconsideration at best.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 09-29-2017, 01:55 AM.

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  • Michael Brazier
    replied
    As very little of the above has anything to do with Beasts, I'm taking it to PMs.

    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
    It's the fact that my interpretation of Dual Identity protests Princesses from the risks of being Kin that decided it for me. If you don't have the risks you don't get benefits like Mother's Kiss.
    A rule that Family Ties only applies to the identity the Beast actually knows has the same effect, in a way that better fits the logic of both games.

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  • The Kings Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    A correction is necessary, I see. Dual Identity in Princess makes it impossible for supernatural powers to detect that the mundane ID and transformed ID of a Noble are really the same person, and to use sympathetic magic to attack her through one ID while she's in the other. It doesn't do anything beyond that.
    I checked the text in Vocation, and it's the same as Dream.

    Supernatural powers that enhance perception are confused by a Princess’ transformation. An entity cannot even begin to discover her identity by using such a power before he realizes that she can transform.
    I've always interpreted that broadly. Learning someone is a Princess qualifies as "beginning to discover" their identity. After all, a narrow interpretation would say limit it to enhanced perception alone and wouldn't stop a Mage from detecting a Princess' two identities are the same by reading her mind to uncover her unTransformed identity. I know that's was never the intent to allow bypassing Dual Identities that easily.

    Anyway, there's not much point going over the wording because one thing has become clear today. This needs an update. If nothing else Vocation should clarify how it works in regards to powers other than enhanced perception. When I get round to doing another update I'm going to rewrite it from scratch to use the Clues mechanic if the players are the investigator and put in more storyteller advice for when the players are the target. This wouldn't be the first time the two versions have diverged.

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    Heck, there's two Charms that can be used to do the latter
    Didn't we have that whole argument where I said a Princess could use Charms to track down a freshly Blossomed Princess and you said that no, it would take the resources of an organised Camandarie to ensure that new Princesses were brought into the community.

    (For the record, I was saying that the Charms would target the new Princess' Transformed Identity)

    Which Charms are you referring to? Laying Down the Line and Reflected Light? They don't specifically mention anything about Dual Identities.

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    The way that interacts with Beasts and their Kinship ... well, first, the "rule" that only transformed Nobles count as Kin isn't official - it's on the wiki, but it isn't in either Dream or Vocation, because no rules on crossovers are.
    No disagreement there. I've got no plan to put Crossover rules in the PDF.

    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    And honestly I don't see it as reasonable. Princesses are always supernatural; it just isn't very obvious when they're not transformed. If they're Kin in one form, they should still be Kin in the other.
    As I said way above. unTransformed Princesses are an edge case, they are supernatural but without an external source of power (a Bequest or Queen) to draw from they only have an Echo - which (in Dream) puts them somewhere on the level of a mortal with the Unseen Sense Merit. You could go either way and it would make sense to me.

    It's the fact that my interpretation of Dual Identity protests Princesses from the risks of being Kin that decided it for me. If you don't have the risks you don't get benefits like Mother's Kiss.
    Last edited by The Kings Raven; 09-28-2017, 06:07 PM.

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