[w/Princess] Odd Friends-Don't Mess with a Princess and Her Dragon

[ArcaneArts]

I idly checked out the Fighting with Family thread just cause and I came across a commentary about the relationship between Princesses and Beasts that drove me nuts, because it always drives me nuts, because it's a shallow and cheap interpretation that really has more to do with some people's hang-ups with Beast than anything resembling an actual analysis of what each side has going for or against each other. I wrote up a response and then decided a post on how two splats would not always fight contrary to noisy insistence was against the spirit of that thread, which, you know, is all about fighting. So I copied it and pasted it below. Who knows how this conversation will turn out.
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I realize this thread is dedicated to Beasts go YAH YAH with other supernaturals in fights of various sorts, so I hope I can be forgiven for not only a brief divergence but counter-spirit posting, a subject on why some splats wouldn't fight.

But god, is the idea of absolute enmity between Princesses and Beasts stupid and annoying.

Sure, superficially that enmity seems obvious, and my argument has always included a mention of a barrier along those lines. It seems counter-intuitive for the fansplat dedicated to empowering humanity and fighting fear would get along well at all with the species' predators and fearmongers-except that it's really not as cut and dried as that.

First off, the teaching culture of Beasts means that, actually, Beasts are inclined to the improvement of humanity as well, honing their wisdom and instincts and acting as a barrier against worst things out there than humanity is not prepared for, much like anything else. While not the same burning passion for Beasts as it is for Princesses, you can't have a culture of that sort without a significant buy-in, and so Beasts on the whole must at least pay token to the idea, a facet that any Princess can stoke up if they deal with more lax members of the Begotten-but honestly, they probably don't have to. Most they might need to do is provide guidance and counter-balance. In this way, Beasts empower and embolden humanity much the same way as the demons of Pandemonium do, by helping people confront their weakness and failures and gain a full knowledge of themselves-and I don't see anyone proposing Princesses ardently hate Mastigos for their acceptance of that buy-in.

Second, out of the combined splats and fansplats, few pairings are as invested in reaching out to other supernaturals and connecting with them as Princesses and Beasts-and not only is that a shared trait, it's a street that goes both ways. Sure, Beasts want their family to be at home with their monstrous selves while Princesses unite with them to lead them towards humanity, both personal and grand scale-but these things are not mutually exclusive, and a significant part of both games is that each is prone to a reduced and simplified world view that often needs expansion. But putting aside the philosophy for a second, the two's perchance for connection means that both of them are of an open mind for discussion, understanding, and empathy. They are the most likely splats to sit down and have a long dinner and conversation trying to get one another out of the bunch, the most likely splats to talk things out. They are both practiced and focused on this sort of thing, of appealing and making themselves available as help. That does a lot to generate goodwill, even if they have such striking differences in their approaches.

Third, there's this notion that what Beasts do is somehow among the worst things demanded of player splats. I won't dwell hyperlong here because that is it's own discussion and it's been beat to death with a peanut-butter-and-jelly encrusted baseball bat-but among a vampire's casual violation of people for blood, a demon's systemic upheavals and ruinous actions, and everything else in between, a Beast is not really that much different in terms of their actions and effects to other splats that Princess has long indicated a willingness to work out middle grounds with, so it seems arbitrary that Princesses would suddenly deeply object to one splat, particularly since-as established-a good number of them try make good for humanity with their predacity, an attitude lacking from most of the splat Princesses seek out. And for the most part, a Princess doesn't have to do much to be all right in a Beast's book, so these preconceived notions of enmity just sort of fall apart.

I'm not proposing it's all smooth sailing-there is some reconciliation that needs to happen-but I am saying that this is the pairing to also take to that reconciliation with the most willingness to actually make it work out, and that both can and probably do come to appreciate the ways that they help each other out. A Princess further refines a a Beast's lessons and helps them find a better balance between their Life and Legend, and a Beast helps a Princess become aware of their own monstrosity and helps them learn where and how to excise some of them and how to turn other parts into boons for their quest to save others. Hell, a Beast feeding off of a Princess through Family Dinner is actually one of the rare few times they can claim to live a life without needing to harm others much, and at the same time the Beast is there to do the hard things that a Princess just might be too sensitive to do, and their Family Ties can help to soften that blow for them.

Point is, just because someone doesn't like Beast doesn't mean that there's this absolute enmity between the two. Like with family, like with friends, it's a complicated matter. But if you acknowledge how they can, and frequently would, work it out, it's easy to realize what a powerhouse team-up between the two is, and makes conflicts between the two deeper and more nuanced.

[Heavy Arms]

While those are fair motivations and all, thread necromancy - while not against the rules - is still seen as an Internet forum faux pas.

A post your size probably could have justified a new thread given this one's age (you can always link back to old threads) and sought feedback related to the idea you have brewing rather than tagging people to respond to your thoughts on things they said years ago.

[TerrorCooper]

I wanted to toss my own two coins in. Plus, a few comments -have- inspired an idea, or at least the beginnings of one.

[ArcaneArts]

TWO. YEARS. OLD. AND THEN SOME.

WHY.

[TerrorCooper]

I'd think a Princess of the Storm would be more likely to kill any Beasts on sight, assuming that they're just Creatures of Darkness; though, I guess they might mistake a Beast that has kinship with a Werwolf for a potential ally.

Nobles, especially those of the Court of Storms, have Darkness detecting powers, so its unlikely that they'll mistake a Beast for a Darkened or Darkspawn.

I also think a Beast would want little to do with Brats. Brats probably make Beasts of the psychotic, glory-seeking kind of Hero.

Eeeeyup. another possibility (besides the ones suggested by The Kings Raven) is that the Children could see Brats as yet more targets for Lessons (namely that Everything has a cost, You sometimes have to compromise for the sake of your Ideals and/or others and so on).

Though, I wonder how Beasts and Tears would get along... Does Alhambra have Begotten? And are they "better" than other Begotten?

Typical Tears Arrogance and Denial.

Also, I have this glorious thought of a Beast Stereotype for Princesses:

Makara on Princesses: What? No, I'm not gonna do that with my tentacles! Why is that the first thing you think? Get your head out of the gutter!

Hmmmmmm............

Also, Pfhahhahahahhhaaa! Though any of the Makara who're aware of Hentai (TO EVERYONE READING THIS: if you're not going through Puberty, or have not already gone through it, DON'TASK!) would be at least half-expecting such a reaction.

And personally, I'd house-rule out Beasts being able to use Family Dinner with Princess. Otherwise, it does indeed diminish the role and important of Hunger in a story featuring Beasts.

Yeah, probably a good idea, though I myself would add in a drawback, twist or something like that to represent how different Nobles can be in a lot of ways from other Supernaturals.

On this topic, how would the other Radiant Courts react to Beasts? And how would Beasts react to the various Courts. I feel like there is a pretty good idea how relations between Beasts and Twilight Courts might go:

Mirrors: Want Beasts to do what they tell them. Beasts think, "Oh great, a self-absorbed Hero with magic powers." (NOTE: VERY GENERALIZATION, AND MY OPINION, PROVIDING PLENTY OF SALT).
Storms: Either help them destroy the Darkness or be destroyed. Beasts think, "Oh no, a Ax-Crazy Hero with magic powers!" (AGAIN HERE IS YOUR SALT, IT IS ALL NATURAL).
Tears: "Our Beasts do it better." "How?" "Because they're from Alhambra." "Do you accept any kind of counter argument?" "No, because we don't accept fictional arguments." "Oh great..." (I HOPE THE SALT HASN'T HURT ANYONE'S HEART).

Pretty accurate, if you ask me.

So, what do other people think? KingsRaven, MB, anybody?

I'm most certainly interested, and you've got some gears a' turning and wheels a' spinnin' in this mad ole' skull o' mine!

Actually, going back to lessons and kinship nightmares, I had a few ideas for other courts:

Clubs: That sometimes, conflict is necessary
Diamonds: Not all problems can be solved with knowledge. There Are Things Man Was Never Meant To Know!
Hearts: Some rules are made to be broken.
Spades: There are things you can't laugh off. Dude, Not Funny!
Swords: Sometimes, love isn't enough. Failure Is The Only Option

Storms: Hatred cuts both ways. You Are What You Hate.
Mirrors: You can't go it alone. You Ain't So Special.

Humanity: You can't make everything conform to your vision.

Also, here's something I thought might be interesting: We know what stereotypes Nobles have for Beasts, but what stereotypes do Beasts have for Nobles? Here's some ideas...

Anakim: Want to see who can burn the longest?

Eshmaki: Would you mind turning that down a bit? Some of us happen to prefer the dark.
Makara: Watch your mouth! Some of my best friends are squids!
Namtaru: Your powers make you beautiful, and tell you how rotten everyone else is... Don't know if I envy or pity you.
Ugallu: I wonder, if I fly close to you, would I burn up?

My own take on Beasts looking at with Princesses:

Anakim: You show them where they can go. I'll pick you both up when you fall.
Eshmaki: You leave the light on for them, give them a place to go. I'll make sure they're strong enough to get home at night.
Makara: You call it love, but does he make you breathless? Does he leave you clawing for purchase, unable to know where up is? It's not love unless it's the deep end, dear.
Also Makara: No, seriously, that's not what my tentacles are for.
Namtaru: You fight for truth, but have trouble with leaking wounds. I'll try to be gentle.
Ugallu: You shine a light and I pull back the curtains. The winner is sense overload.

All 10 of these are awesome! But what about Inguma and Talassi?

Thinking about Beasts and Princesses being friends is interesting to say the least. Partially because I get this mental image of a shaky friendship at first where the Beast and Princess try to understand things from each others point of view, but also understand that they can't change who they are without dire consequences.

I also like the possibility of a Noble and a Beast falling in love.

But mostly for the mental image of the Princess on the losing end of a fight about to get killed or worse and suddenly there's the Beast shielding them from the Darkness.

"So you feed on fear huh? Cute, now let me show you what true fear looks like."

The follow-up image of said Darkspawn subsequently trying to get the Beast to pull a Face-Heel Turn, only for the Beast to start counting lines like Freeza from DBZ Abridged out of a sense of bored, semi-detached humour and infuriating them to no end is one I find incredibly amusing.

People were too distracted by my dong and getting security to pay critical attention to my discourse. PLus, if you can deliver a speech naked, you ain't got nothing to worry about in clothes.

Too true, and I'm NOT gonna ask about that particular Noodle Incident.

[Deinos]

But Beast is not that game. To be that game it would need, at minimum, a tension encoded in the mechanics between Legend and Life, and a clear sense that magical power comes at the expense of social position - which the other CofD games do by loading disadvantages onto a high power stat and a low Integrity-equivalent, and which Beast deliberately doesn't do at all.

Actually, I find this to be one of the greatest strengths of Beast and one of the greatest weaknesses of most other splats -- games about monsters that punish you for being monsters.

For your, say, Beast/Demon characters being good, or any monster PC in any (non WoD) gameline, you already have all the reward you possibly need; a warm fuzzy feeling and a self satisfied smugness.

But most creatures besides them basically are all *strongly encouraged* to avoid being monsters. For your character being bad, you are crippled and likely hunted. We really didn't need yet another game where fighting against your monstrous nature, instead of being a subversion, is mandatory.

As far as beasts vs princesses, whisper and prey, without subversion, fit virtually any group, and are essentially normal paranormal investigator or monster hunter protagonist MO. In the majority of chronicles, the high satiety meals (also somewhat for power) include most supernatural antagonists, and bullying humans is usually both an annoying diversion OOC and less practical IC.

I also don't think having a beast adapt their hunger to fit human morality is going against BtP's themes at all; you are a (soulless) human consciousness restraining an inhuman monstrosity. On the other hand, as all beasts can simply sate their horror and let it go to sleep to lead a normal life; a beast can never say "this isn't my fault, its who I am" -- if their hungers are that horrible and they can't adapt it, they're not like vampires or whatever who have to feed (though as someone who donates plasma regularly I find the idea that a vampire's diet is necessary harmful to be hysterical). They are complete moral agents that have total freedom to be "good" or "bad" and have every reason to choose either extreme or neither.

[SdeSpencer]

I also have the hilarious image in my head of Enablers "tempting" creatures of Darkness to do good and/or Ravens and Furies to be reasonable.

"come on dont you want to break the rules and help people"

[ArcaneArts]

Having read assorted portions of the Player's Guide so far, Whispers and detective-style Seekers are practically made to be BFFs. I also have the hilarious image in my head of Enablers "tempting" creatures of Darkness to do good and/or Ravens and Furies to be reasonable.



The bolded. Take the difference between how Beasts and Mages see and travel the Primordial Dream, replace "Beasts" and "Primordial Dream" with "Nobles" and "Bright Dream," and that's what the Dreamlands are. I think.

Truth dis.

[Sith_Happens]

Having read assorted portions of the Player's Guide so far, Whispers and detective-style Seekers are practically made to be BFFs. I also have the hilarious image in my head of Enablers "tempting" creatures of Darkness to do good and/or Ravens and Furies to be reasonable.

That also brings up another interesting point. How does the Begotten perceive the Dreamland? Is it just another part of the Bright Dream? Or is it like how Mage's and Beast's perceptions of the Astral Realm are different despite being one and the same? And what about the Nobility and the Primordial Dream?

The bolded. Take the difference between how Beasts and Mages see and travel the Primordial Dream, replace "Beasts" and "Primordial Dream" with "Nobles" and "Bright Dream," and that's what the Dreamlands are. I think.

[ArcaneArts]

That also brings up another interesting point. How does the Begotten perceive the Dreamland? Is it just another part of the Bright Dream? Or is it like how Mage's and Beast's perceptions of the Astral Realm are different despite being one and the same? And what about the Nobility and the Primordial Dream?

As for the original question, a personal head cannon of mine since reading the BPG is that Wardens are Larval Horrors who get lost in Mists and wind up being drawn to the Light until they gestate into predators of false hope and escapism. In that sense, the Horror would probably react to the Gale as if an Unfettered or other Sibling tried to move in on it's territory. And if reversed, likewise for the Warden.

Given that's it's been a while since I've read Princess and I am avoiding it because project reasons(not the one in my signature, go back it)-it's probably appear as regions in the Bright Dream unless someone wants to suggest that the Light is something that would appear in The Mother's Land-in which case, it becomes a strange otherworld-midground that somehow does not cross through the Mother's Cave(/metaphor for language), or perhaps form their own similar gate. The Ruins of the Time Before would be oddly bright things in either world, either way, worn and broken as they are.

Also agree on the Wardens.

[Mangaholic13]

I mean, isn't the Horror's default response to most thing to go nuts and bite off heads?

True, though in this case, it would spit the head out instead of swallowing.

[Dusksage]

I mean, isn't the Horror's default response to most thing to go nuts and bite off heads?

[Mangaholic13]

That also brings up another interesting point. How does the Begotten perceive the Dreamland? Is it just another part of the Bright Dream? Or is it like how Mage's and Beast's perceptions of the Astral Realm are different despite being one and the same? And what about the Nobility and the Primordial Dream?

I go by the Changeling book Dancers in Dusk, in which it's explained that every mental plane is just how a different splat views it through the lens of their powers. Mages see the Astral, Changelings see the Skien, Beasts see the Primordial Dream. At least, that's how I thought it was. Then again, Changeling the Lost was what got me into Dream-based magic and abilities...

Though your idea, DS, is rather interesting. My personal opinion though: Beast's Horror goes nuts and bites the Warden's head off.

[Dusksage]

That also brings up another interesting point. How does the Begotten perceive the Dreamland? Is it just another part of the Bright Dream? Or is it like how Mage's and Beast's perceptions of the Astral Realm are different despite being one and the same? And what about the Nobility and the Primordial Dream?

As for the original question, a personal head cannon of mine since reading the BPG is that Wardens are Larval Horrors who get lost in Mists and wind up being drawn to the Light until they gestate into predators of false hope and escapism. In that sense, the Horror would probably react to the Gale as if an Unfettered or other Sibling tried to move in on it's territory. And if reversed, likewise for the Warden.

[Mangaholic13]

Also, had a thought recently: if a Beast travels into Dreamland and a Warden tries to use the Gale on it, what happens? Does it have a chance to work? Does it fail? Does the Horror bite the Warden's head off for daring to try and rewrite it's Legend?