Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Family working together: Beasts with other Splats

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    For changelings, a Beast represents a somewhat simple and somewhat known supernatural quantity in a world where they deal with alien and complicated fae nonsense by virtue of existing in the context that they do.

    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    And that Beasts can be seen as True Fae - or they servants - to some changelings...
    They think that about half the major splats that exist. Monsters are seldom unilaterally nice people.

    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
    Indeed. However, Changelings can and often do also feed without that. A gardnener in a graveyard will meet his fair share of Sorrow without having to inflict additional one, barkeepers will probably have regular access to all kinds of emotions (sportsbar --> lot of anger going around) etc. Those who do cause emotions to harvest Glamour may have to face accusations (by others or themselves) of behaving cruely or even reminiscent of Keepers.
    There are changelings who came out of Arcadia with a yen for cannibalism, the mechanical toothlessness of 1e's superstition against harvesting the same people repeatedly if you care about them does not obviate the potential and worry that emotional harvests can have unfortunate side-effects, passive feeding still requires you to at the very least get into people's space when they're experiencing strong emotions, and emotions that are old or temporary offer less sustenance — the spirit of emotional harvesting is very clearly not such that you can just go about your day and expect to pull in a couple points of Glamour without structuring your life around those hits or outright contriving them. Pushing the idea that changelings who get their sustenance in the ways the books suggest they regularly do are unusual does not strike me as a positive thing for that game's reputational fidelity.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

    Comment


    • #32
      The Kings Raven How would Beasts and Leviathans work well together? The Wake I could see as a veritable feeding ground of fear and potential Chambers for a Beast, and the Leviathan could appreciate a Wake-resistant enforcer who might be able to keep their cultists in line and act as a liaison to other supernaturals easier.
      Last edited by Vent0; 10-06-2017, 12:33 PM.


      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
      Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

      Comment


      • #33
        For Beasts and Leviathans I'd start with this New York Times article about what it's like being staff inside Trump's white house. Then add on the fact that a Leviathan's temper tantrum can result in you being physically injured or worse. To make matters worse the Leviathan may have super-intelligence (and most will have at least above average, darwinian necessity) which wouldn't make them any more emotionally mature but would make it much harder to manage them without realising what you're up too.

        Even with the promise of vast wealth and power, or feeding like you've never fed before (can a Beast get ill from overeating? When a Leviathan can make an entire football stadium slaughter each other at 0 exp you might want to add rules for that) you have to wonder why Beasts will take the job, but if they do the rewards are obvious. As for Leviathans, they do need middle managers if they can tolerate them.

        (All this assumes a Leviathan who, like most WoD characters with a bit of experience, has dropped a few points on their karma meter.)


        “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
        My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
        Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

        Comment


        • #34
          Beasts that overeat have their Horror fall asleep and lose their abilities, so this is absolutely something they try to avoid at all costs. I also do not think Family dinner considers the amount of targets at all? One Vamp hunting down and feeding on one human works about as good as hunting down a bunch of Hosts or destroying a whole bunch of infrastructure.

          Well, considering that this Trump!Leviathan weould be mistreating his Begotten, he would have to constantly live in paranoia of being murdered by them because I don't see Beasts take a lot of shit, and the benefits offered seem to be just regular meals - vamps can provide that just as well. (We already went over the ways a Beast might do that, ignoring possibilities like targeting their cult/riling Leviathans up against one another/getting other Supes to gang up on them etc.) So this probably ends with the Beast taking down the Leviathan or dying in the process. The number of Beast-Leviathan partnerships is probably low.
          (0 XP Beast could achieve that on a city-wide scale, albeit needing a bit of luck and expending Satiety. Just use Fear is Contagious and Your Rage Consumes You!, and you might just wind up with a Purge reenactment or rather, the Kingsman Church scene.)

          @the Changeling debate: yeah, passive feeding might not be as common as I made it look like. And it definitly is not harmless - but it makes it easier to tell yourself what you do is fine. Beasts need their Lessons to tell themselves that, and even that cannot harbour illusions about it.

          ArchonAres Wolfpack with Inheritance Beast Totem sounds like some serious scary shit. Colour me intrigued.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
            Beasts that overeat have their Horror fall asleep and lose their abilities
            Yeah, but that's something regular over-feeding can do. Shouldn't entire stadium slaughtering each other over-feeding have unique consiquences?

            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
            Well, considering that this Trump!Leviathan weould be mistreating his Begotten, he would have to constantly live in paranoia of being murdered by them because I don't see Beasts take a lot of shit
            Unless they catch him in low Depth (which is a possibility) a Leviathan vs Begotten fight is not likely to go well for the Begotten. The two start at fairly similar levels, but as a Leviathan gets experience they rapidly overtake Beasts. It only takes Sheol 4 before a Leviathan is as big as a blue whale in apotheosis. A single hit from something that size could flatten a Begotten into a thin paste even before you add on the effects of a Leviathan's supernatural strength or claws. At Sheol 10 a Leviathan is the size of the empire state building.

            Also, the Begotten will have to deal with an entire (probably armed) armed Cult protecting the Leviathan.

            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
            and the benefits offered seem to be just regular meals
            Don't forget power. A Leviathan's cult at it's apex rivals ISIS at the hight of it's power even before the Leviathan intervenes directly. And their rituals can blanket entire cities or geographical regions.

            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
            The number of Beast-Leviathan partnerships is probably low.
            No argument there. The number of Leviathan-Leviathan partnerships is low. Leviathans are emotionally unstable sociopathic meglomanics (depending on how badly their Tranquility is doing). They are not team players.

            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
            (0 XP Beast could achieve that on a city-wide scale, albeit needing a bit of luck and expending Satiety. Just use Fear is Contagious and Your Rage Consumes You!
            Unlikely. Everyone gets 2 rolls to resist (one to resist the contagion spreading, one to resist scumbing to the Nightmare). And barring any text saying that the timer resets every time the Nightmare spreads I think you only get one scene for the whole thing to spread as far as it can. The kingsman church scene is a possibility. In a football stadium it probably won't spread that far before people realise something supernatural is going on and start to flee from the contagion.

            And a football stadium is what a Leviathan can reach at Sheol 1, at Sheol 10 they get a 40 mile diemater.



            “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
            My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
            Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

            Comment


            • #36
              Well not necessarily, a stadium isn't likely to have the scene end first since scene length is variable. That said regardless of whether or not people notice and think something supernatural is going it doesn't take that many people going into a freakout to cause people to start panicking without the supernatural parts. The worse the supernatural fear spreads the more extreme the mundane freakout is and you'll likely end up with a mass exodus and panic due to the possibly ensuing riot.

              As for feeding I'd probably argue that if there's a massive viable feeding opportunity available then the Horror might force a roll off to determine if it would be satisfied with the leftovers of its kin when there's a freaking buffet open. Though I admit I don't know enough about Leviathan to figure this in any but the broadest fashion.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                Yeah, but that's something regular over-feeding can do. Shouldn't entire stadium slaughtering each other over-feeding have unique consiquences?

                Unless they catch him in low Depth (which is a possibility) a Leviathan vs Begotten fight is not likely to go well for the Begotten. The two start at fairly similar levels, but as a Leviathan gets experience they rapidly overtake Beasts. It only takes Sheol 4 before a Leviathan is as big as a blue whale in apotheosis. A single hit from something that size could flatten a Begotten into a thin paste even before you add on the effects of a Leviathan's supernatural strength or claws. At Sheol 10 a Leviathan is the size of the empire state building.

                Also, the Begotten will have to deal with an entire (probably armed) armed Cult protecting the Leviathan.

                Don't forget power. A Leviathan's cult at it's apex rivals ISIS at the hight of it's power even before the Leviathan intervenes directly. And their rituals can blanket entire cities or geographical regions.

                No argument there. The number of Leviathan-Leviathan partnerships is low. Leviathans are emotionally unstable sociopathic meglomanics (depending on how badly their Tranquility is doing). They are not team players.

                Unlikely. Everyone gets 2 rolls to resist (one to resist the contagion spreading, one to resist scumbing to the Nightmare). And barring any text saying that the timer resets every time the Nightmare spreads I think you only get one scene for the whole thing to spread as far as it can. The kingsman church scene is a possibility. In a football stadium it probably won't spread that far before people realise something supernatural is going on and start to flee from the contagion.

                And a football stadium is what a Leviathan can reach at Sheol 1, at Sheol 10 they get a 40 mile diemater.
                Good point - it is not a realiable way of reproducing that effect. But the Fear involved would probably be more than from people in Madness slaughtering each other. And Fear is the primary food of the Begotten.

                I do not think it should have any special feeding effect - a Beast pulling a joker and blowing up hospitals would not have a special effect for feeding, either, after all. Some Beasts might need death to properly feed, but this would be Family Dinner. Family Dinner requires your 'host' to hunt, and feed in a manner appropriate to them. And since it gives Satiety rather than having you roll, at best I'd give an additional Satiety for the size of the meal.

                Well, yeah, Size (and thus health pool) are impressive, but a Looming Presence/Cyclopean Strength Beast could still try and use the Leviathan as a club if they're hungry (in Low Satiety). Yes, even the Empire-State-Building-sized things are a possible club to a Lair 5 Beast with those two atavisms. Or to a Lair 3 Beast willing to spend a Satiety on it (assuming the Giant Merit was NOT taken. With that, a Lair 3 can spend Satiety to lift - and throw- things up to size 72). And a Leviathan that Size needs a body of water nearby, as they are immobile on land. With the ability to throw or pull a Leviathan on Land, Beasts can pose a serious threat even to Apotheosis-state Leviathans. Because even +7 on Strength or Stamina does not help against the helplessness of being stranded. Is that enough to guarantee winning? No. But Beasts can and will pose a serious threat.

                And I think THAT is the single-best reason why a Leviathan might want a Beast in their fold, in the first place. You have someone that makes it easier by FAR to deal with your rivals. Because even if all the Beast does is keep your opponent in your final confrontation on Land, you win. They are forced into less powerful states or dramatically lose power. Any way it goes, you have the advantage. Why is this better than a Beast with Storm-Lashed using lightning bolts? Because this makes the Beast a sidekick. The guy that helps the protagonist achieve their goal. It strongly affirms who is the boss.

                Power is luring for Tyrants, agreed. And open worship and acceptance of one's nature might actually make this a more or less equal opportunity to Kindred in the eyes of some Beasts. The problem is, that Tyrants often want to HOLD the power. I assume that sooner or later, most of the few Beast/Leviathan bonds break due to that - the Beast moves on. In those few cases where a Beast is fine with it's rank, and gets acceptable treatment, you get a scary combination.

                Comment


                • #38
                  So you bring up the Cyclopean Strength, and honestly I think the rules there are bugged. The fluff refers to the stones of Stonehenge, or throwing cars under Satiety Expenditure. Lifting buildings is orders of magnitude above that, it seems like a glaring clash. But lets say the rules are correct. Even a stranded Leviathan on dry land is a potent threat. You said Lair 3, so at Sheol 3 a Leviathan could pump out 3 "zerglings" a turn (with a maximum of nine alive at once) and wear the Beast down. Or he could command every human in the area to attack the Beast. Or he could trigger a city collapsing earthquake on the assumption that if buildings land on everyone he can come back from the dead and the Beast can't (strange aeons after all). At Sheol 6 the Leviathan is up to 60 zerglings a turn. Once the first batch is out

                  The general theme behind Leviathans powers is that when it comes to destroying stuff or conquering stuff they can reach the same levels as Chuthlu or Sarah Kerrigan. When it comes do doing something a sensible person might actually want to do: Make friends, hold down an honest job, actually govern that place you conquered, or look at yourself in the mirror and be comfortable with what you see. They suck.

                  Anyway, we probably shouldn't let this subthread drag on. I think white room power comparisons have their place, but this is a thread about family working together not fighting. The important thing to take away is not who'd win in a fight. It's that a Leviathan is theoretically capable of conquering an entire middle eastern country and sharing the spoils with a Beast; and if they do they'll need middle managers such as that Beast. However the price for being cut into this venture is that most Leviathans are tyrannical and unstable employers. They don't all need babysitting like Trump, just the low Tranquillity ones, but even a high tranquillity Leviathan's cultists would be really annoying to manage.
                  Last edited by The Kings Raven; 10-07-2017, 03:38 PM.


                  “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                  My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                  Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I feel the title of the thread needs to be repeated.

                    Family Working Together.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      From what ive understood about leviathan (very little mind you), they are meant to represent the gaint sea monsters and they heavily deal in cults?
                      With that i could easily see a leviathan and a makara decide to form a cult together in a sort of dark mother and dark father kind of thing.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Indeed. But as far as I understood, the Main problems for Leviathans are other Leviathans. Thus I pointed how a beast would be helpful in that regard. The fighting is for the other thread.

                        Beast and Sin-Eaters and mummies is what I Wonder about.
                        I mean, a Collector focusing on cult Relics might be a nice help for mummies that try to amass their amount of sacred objects by stealing from others. Maybe?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Aren't mummies supposed to be brought back for a specific purpose? In that case I'd imagine a Beast with the right hunger could be coming along to get a rather uncommon/rare meal. I mean I can totally see a nemesis signing in to help with divine punishment.

                          Sin Eaters I am less sure on as I'm not sure what the major thing a Sin Eater is meant to do is. To my knowledge they are people brought back by a spectral thing and given powers in exchange for basically handling whatever it wants. That about right?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                            I feel the title of the thread needs to be repeated.

                            Family Working Together.
                            Sorry man. It's a recurring problem.


                            Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                            Work Blog Coming Soon
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                              Sin Eaters I am less sure on as I'm not sure what the major thing a Sin Eater is meant to do is. To my knowledge they are people brought back by a spectral thing and given powers in exchange for basically handling whatever it wants. That about right?
                              Not really, though that's part of it. The focus of Sin Eaters is in dealing with ghosts. They can see ghosts, and sin eaters are in turn beacons to ghosts. So whether a sin eater likes it or not, they attract the attention of ghosts who want their help. They're free to react to that as they see fit, but it's almost impossible to ignore.

                              Many sin eaters translate that niche into a moral responsibility to help ghosts. It's not that far from the way Beasts turn their predatory nature towards something vaguely positive.


                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Sounds to me like Beasts can help with tangential stuff like human, possessed and other supernaturals, but not with Sin-Eaters bread&butter. At least, I think there are no abilities that let them interact with Ghosts?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X