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  • #91
    If you really, really think that fear of rape is something you want to explore through your game, and you have a Storyteller and other players who are willing and comfortable with that, then there's absolutely nothing stopping you.

    Personally, I'd prefer it if my RPG books didn't include a passage called, "And here's how you play a rape monster!"

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Gellydog View Post
      If you really, really think that fear of rape is something you want to explore through your game, and you have a Storyteller and other players who are willing and comfortable with that, then there's absolutely nothing stopping you.

      Personally, I'd prefer it if my RPG books didn't include a passage called, "And here's how you play a rape monster!"
      I have to second this. Perfectly stated.


      Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD- Dark Eras 2; Scion - Mysteries of the World

      CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon (TBA) | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Irioth View Post
        The only other thing I'm unhappy with in the BPG is the implication achievement of Inheritance is necessarily going to be an endgame for the character. Now, most kinds of Inheritance admittedly make the character unplayable in a Beast chronicle, either because they turn animalistic (Merger, Retreat in most cases) or they effectively regress into a Muggle (Divergence, Erasure). But I cannot see any valid reason why an Incarnate cannot stay a playable character indefinitedly in a suitably high-powered chronicle, more or less under the same terms one can play an Archmage or vampire elder PC (stuff we have entire sourcebooks about). Incarnate Inheritance is basically the same kind of playable, trascendental supernatural condition as Archmagedom, if with less phenomenal cosmic power and more viscerally physical superpowers. Inversion is also entirely playable in theory, even if practice I expect it is going to cut short the character's lifespan.
        Well, not all Beasts want to or have to go for Inheritance (e.g. Predators are mentioned to quite often forego that option, as they often consider their 'normal' status to be the Dark Mother's will, 'pure', and a sort of perfect state/existence).
        Also, as you yourself pointed out, Archmages and Elder Vampire PCs became an option once we had Sourcebooks for them - this is not the case for Beasts, currently, but that could very well change at some point (Hell, I'm all for that!). In addition, I don't see why Divergence or Erasure should be unplayable - it'd just change the tone and focus immensely, but I think it'd be extremely interesting to explore those!
        Merger and Retreat, on the other hand, don't really seem playable to me currently.

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        • #94
          Just to avoid giving the wrong impression about my judgement of BPG, I'm going to state I'm absolutely enthusiastic about the vast majority of its content. The book was entirely worth its long, eager wait and more. It is going to be as necessary at the table as the corebook. Things I especially appreciated included acknowledgment the Devouring can resemble the Homecoming at times, guidelines to play various elements of Beast existence (minus the Families stuff since my preferred playstyle tends to deemphasize splat stereotypes), the new Families (especially Tallassii) and Hungers (both equally), most new Atavisms (special mention to Caught in the Webs, Crushing Coils, Enemy Within, Lightning Strike, and Skin Deep, which provide welcome plugs to noticeable gaps in the Beast arsenal), rules for Horrorspawn (they provide an excellent and most useful minion option for the Begotten), the ideas for factions in Beast society (loved the Athenaeum of the Dark Mother and the Incarnate cults), the rules for Beasts to roam the Astral at large, and expansion of the rules for Incarnates (I just regret we get no Ascension-style option for a character to progress beyond Incarnation).

          I also find a few new Nightmares and rules for Cults interesting (even if I tend to focus on Atavisms more) and I fancy the rules for Communion with the Dark Mother (even if I need to check how they apply in practice). I love the Horrorspawn, Legendary Horror (even if I'm dubious it is worth the Satiety price), and Well-Stocked Lair Merits. I would have really liked a Merit to get a second Hunger option, even if Alien Mindset admittedly can work as a stopgap substitute. Obcasus rites are awesome on paper to give Beasts their own magic, even if the given rites examples are nothing to write home about. More or less the same applies for Kinship Merits. Given my own transhumanist mindset, Incarnation is the only Inheritance option I fancy and I'm interested in as a character achievement. There are a few items that look like a waste of space and ink. Doppelganger, Plague Bearer, and Shadow Stalker, I'm looking at you. It is beyond me how anyone may be interested in having them when we have Horrorspawn for minions, Alien Mindset for impersonation, Basilik's Touch for lethal debuffing, and Shadowed Soul for merging with shadows. All in all, BPG .is a top-quality book, I'm already impatient for the PoD option.
          Last edited by Irioth; 03-10-2018, 07:58 PM.

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          • #95
            Personally, I love Doppelganger, plague bearer and shadow stalker, as they open many possibilities for social havoc.
            They may be more niche, but still definitly have their place as "nightmarish"abilities. And easy to use to cause integrity breaks, which is nice for beasts.

            And the Stepping sideways merit is really awesome, imo.
            Feigning Death made me happy. I want more of those, though.
            Last edited by Wormwood; 03-10-2018, 04:15 PM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
              Personally, I love Doppelganger, plague bearer and shadow stalker, as they open many possibilities for social havoc.
              They may be more niche, but still definitly have their place as "nightmarish"abilities. And easy to use to cause integrity breaks, which is nice for beasts.

              And the Stepping sideways merit is really awesome, imo.
              Feigning Death made me happy. I want more of those, though.
              The one that lets you see Twilight was a much-needed addition as well, in my opinion. It opens up a lot of options.


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              • #97
                Originally posted by Wormwood View Post

                Well, not all Beasts want to or have to go for Inheritance (e.g. Predators are mentioned to quite often forego that option, as they often consider their 'normal' status to be the Dark Mother's will, 'pure', and a sort of perfect state/existence).
                Also, as you yourself pointed out, Archmages and Elder Vampire PCs became an option once we had Sourcebooks for them - this is not the case for Beasts, currently, but that could very well change at some point (Hell, I'm all for that!). In addition, I don't see why Divergence or Erasure should be unplayable - it'd just change the tone and focus immensely, but I think it'd be extremely interesting to explore those!
                Merger and Retreat, on the other hand, don't really seem playable to me currently.
                The stated opinion of Predators is another thing in the book I'm rather unhappy with (since I fancy Incarnation a lot and Prey is one of my preferred Hungers) and I'm going to ignore it. It makes little sense to me since I can easily think of all kinds of ways Inheritance can make a Beast an even better predator, and hence I expect many Predators are going to think the Dark Mother made them very good but gave them an option to evolve into something even better. The difference between Incarnates and Archmages or Elder Vampires as PC is the latter two got no real coverage of their nature and abilties that would enable to play them until we got their sourcebooks, whileas everything really necessary to play an Incarnate is included in the corebook already. Having said that, if OPP ever plans to release a sourcebook that is going to expand coverage of Incarnation as a playable high-powered character option (say a Primordial Dream sourcebook), my money is ready and eager to be spent.

                Divergence or Erasure may or may not be playable pretty much the same way one may regard Prometheans and their endgame of becoming a mortal an appealing option to play or not. YMMV, but if I'd want to play a mortal with a few minor special tricks and behind-the-curtain knowledge, I'd make one from scratch. As a rule, I regard pretty much any supernatural splat a better condition to exist in the CoD setting than a mortal, and hence the regressive quest to turn from the former to the latter registers as deeply unrewarding and unappealing to me. This most definitely applies to beasts, since they get high in my 'CoD Isekai' preference list, together with mages, vampires, and sin-eaters.
                Last edited by Irioth; 03-10-2018, 04:53 PM.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Irioth View Post

                  The stated opinion of Predators is another thing in the book I'm rather unhappy with (since I fancy Incarnation a lot and Prey is one of my preferred Hungers) and I'm going to ignore it. It makes little sense to me since I can easily think of all kinds of ways Inheritance can make a Beast an even better predator, and hence I expect many Predators are going to think the Dark Mother made them very good but gave them an option to evolve into something even better. The difference between Incarnates and Archmages or Elder Vampires as PC is the latter two got no real coverage of their nature and abilties that would enable to play them until we got their sourcebooks, whileas everything really necessary to play an Incarnate is included in the corebook already. Having said that, if OPP ever plans to release a sourcebook that is going to expand coverage of Incarnation as a playable high-powered character option (say a Primordial Dream sourcebook), my money is ready and eager to be spent.

                  Divergence or Erasure may or may not be playable pretty much the same way one may regard Prometheans and their endgame of becoming a mortal an appealing option to play or not. YMMV, but if I'd want to play a mortal with a few minor special tricks and behind-the-curtain knowledge, I'd make one from scratch. As a rule, I regard pretty much any supernatural splat a better condition to exist in the CoD setting than a mortal, and hence the regressive quest to turn from the former to the latter registers as deeply unrewarding and unappealing to me. This most definitely applies to beasts, since they get high in my 'CoD Isekai' preference list, together with mages, vampires, and sin-eaters.
                  It didnt say all Predators Stay away from Inheritance, just that they have a statistical preference. One that to me at least, makes sense.
                  Imo we lack a lot of Information to make an end-game Incarnate chronicle. The source books for archmages and elder vampires also gave possible adversaries, plot hooks, goals etc. We have little in that way for Incarnates, and I'd love to see more.

                  I get that it's your personal preference to go for the highest state possible.To a degree, I even agree. However, I think all the other possibilities are more than justified, and have an intrigue on their own. The stories they can tell have a unique quality.
                  And Story is the reason why I'd be interested in keeping to play a promethean after achieving the great work: Emotional and narrative investment.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Gellydog View Post
                    If you really, really think that fear of rape is something you want to explore through your game, and you have a Storyteller and other players who are willing and comfortable with that, then there's absolutely nothing stopping you.

                    Personally, I'd prefer it if my RPG books didn't include a passage called, "And here's how you play a rape monster!"
                    If you ask my amoral opinion born from playing a sizable amount of rape hentai eroge (where for the record I tend to find the victim's PoV rather more interesting), I assume fear of rape might turn out to be a not so rewarding option to be (or play) an incarnate nightmare clad in human flesh, if nothing else because its scope tends to feel boring and too narrow after a while. There is only so much variation you can put into violence and sex, and moreso their mandatory combination. It would be more or less the same feeling of "is there anything else to my existence" a different kind of Beast may get after they eviscerate their one hundredth victim. It is what the Begotten invented the Lessons culture to counteract if one puts moral scruples aside. So I'd find the passage you mention a waste of space in most circumstances, if not for the same reasons as you probably do. By the way, this is also the same reason I'd expect many beasts to experiment with variations in their Hunger preferences and hunting M.O. in the long term. I expect repetition boredom to be a significant problem for successful, long-lived beasts, more so than any moral concern they likely outgrew or lacked in the first place.

                    Having said that, I just appreciate it a lot when my RPG books or my fellow gamers do not throw all kinds of "badwrongfun" guilt-tripping SJW lectures my way for playing characters whose nature, lifestyle, or abilities may have rapey (or other PC-questionable) implications. As much as I'm concerned, the generic advice to avoid situations that may make other peoples at the table seriously uncomfortable should suffice, I can easily agree with it, and I much prefer if it does not make any 'sacred cow' special status for sexual or any other specific content. More or less the same applies as it concerns other kinds of potentially questionable content, such as slavery or ethnic prejudice. As a rule, I'm not typically going to bring this kind of stuff much further in my typical vanilla RPG than say stating my amoral PC are going to use their mind control abilities for offstage activities that may qualify as supernatural date rape when they feel horny and look for a one-night stand. Anything kinkier than that, I am likely going to leave to sexual RP with the right kind of cooperative partner or my collection of erotic computer games. Of course, if the group is willing to experiment with stronger stuff, I'm certainly not going to be the one to hold back.
                    Last edited by Irioth; 03-10-2018, 06:31 PM.

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                    • It sounds like you're looking for a safe space where you can act out ideas or fantasies that you know other people are going to find uncomfortable, offensive or disgusting. As I said, if you wish to do so in your games, and can convince the other people at your table to go along with it? Knock yourself out!

                      Otherwise, I'd ask you to please leave that stuff out of this discussion and this community. I'm entirely uninterested in hashing out exactly "how much rape is too much" while trying to discuss a series of RPGs that absolutely explore darker themes, but are content to handle such topics with a general maturity and grace that leaves it up to the individual player and group to decide just how far they'd like to take it. And while I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, I wouldn't be surprised if most others here feel the same way.

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                      • Anyone think we should make a Homebrew Obascus Rites thread?

                        My first idea would be something to actually allow Beasts to do more with Dreams.


                        A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                        • Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                          It didnt say all Predators Stay away from Inheritance, just that they have a statistical preference. One that to me at least, makes sense.
                          It doesn't to me, but I assume we are going to agree to disagree on that.

                          Imo we lack a lot of Information to make an end-game Incarnate chronicle. The source books for archmages and elder vampires also gave possible adversaries, plot hooks, goals etc. We have little in that way for Incarnates, and I'd love to see more.
                          We are in full agreement about that. I'd absolutely love to get more information on that kind of stuff for Incarnates, such as in a book about the Primordial Dream or the high-end movers and shakers of beast society. I greedily lapped on the bits about the Begotten luminaries and the factions they created in the BPG, and loved most Incarnate NPC in the book (especially the one said to be the origin for the Bigfoot cryptid myth). Unlike the ones in Conquering Heroes, where the authors seemingly went out of their way to make almost all Inheritance examples hardly usable except as enemy NPC (well, perhaps understandable if one thinks of the book as an adversaries catalogue).

                          I get that it's your personal preference to go for the highest state possible.To a degree, I even agree. However, I think all the other possibilities are more than justified, and have an intrigue on their own. The stories they can tell have a unique quality.
                          And Story is the reason why I'd be interested in keeping to play a promethean after achieving the great work: Emotional and narrative investment.
                          I get your point, and I respect it even if I do not share it. Personally I'm too invested in optimism and self-realization to find most stories with a downer ending rewarding, especially the ones I'm having an active part in developing, such as RPG typically goes.
                          Last edited by Irioth; 03-10-2018, 07:02 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by Gellydog View Post
                            Otherwise, I'd ask you to please leave that stuff out of this discussion and this community. I'm entirely uninterested in hashing out exactly "how much rape is too much" while trying to discuss a series of RPGs that absolutely explore darker themes, but are content to handle such topics with a general maturity and grace that leaves it up to the individual player and group to decide just how far they'd like to take it. And while I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, I wouldn't be surprised if most others here feel the same way.
                            Fine with me. As far as I'm concerned, this tangent branched from my stated displeasure with the Tallassii 'curse', and it begins and ends with that. As a final remark, I'm going to state the curse looks to me as the wrong approach to get what the likes of you seem to want from the game about this topic, and there is little 'maturity and grace' about it. Apart from annoying people like me, it just creates a 'forbidden fruit' dynamic. Better leave the things you want unspoken, unspoken.
                            Last edited by Irioth; 03-10-2018, 06:59 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                              Anyone think we should make a Homebrew Obascus Rites thread?

                              My first idea would be something to actually allow Beasts to do more with Dreams.
                              I think it would be a great idea. The Rites look like an excellent idea on paper, and I think most of the community did appreciate the option to give beasts their own kind of 'blood magic', but in practice there is scarcely one rite in the book I'd make my characters bother learning.

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                              • Originally posted by Irioth View Post

                                I think it would be a great idea. The Rites look like an excellent idea on paper, and I think most of the community did appreciate the option to give beasts their own kind of 'blood magic', but in practice there is scarcely one rite in the book I'd make my characters bother learning.

                                Yeah, I get that they shouldn't invalidate other types of powers, but having to deal with all the trouble that comes with human sacrifice is not even remotely a trade for a chance at a plot hook or two?


                                A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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