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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic [Hack BPG] Obcasus Rites for free

    [Hack BPG] Obcasus Rites for free

    I'm just so adored by the idea of Obcasus Rites in Beast Player's Guide, story driven ritual magic of Begotten! And it's almost free for the characters - almost, as you need to buy general Merit Obcasus Initiate (••) - and as I would rather want all PCs to be able to lead the Rites if they want to - I wonder what would be game implications on deleting the need for Obcasus Initiate? Rites mechanics still points you need Communion Condition to start the learning process and I would leave the need for Communion in the game - only bypassing Merit tax on players. Would this unbalance things in general sense? Other implications for Begotten society?

  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Dude, nobody is unsympathetic to your situation. A lot of us don't have the stable games we used to (or they every had them). What we're trying to say is that there's a theme to these threads, and it comes down to you fighting the system rather than trying to finesse the system to work with your situation.

    You keep doing things like labeling Obcasus Rites a "problem," the they're not a problem. The way you insist on using them is a problem because it doesn't work for the situation you're stuck with.
    To reinforce as much as I can the notion that people have problems with getting games together regardless of systems:

    Dude, I live in a household of gamers, three of us with frequent fourth and fifth members. We all love this shit. I've been doing this since September.

    We have barely had five game days in the entire time I have been here. And that is stretched over two different games.

    Shit happens. You work around it.

    When real life intervenes, you change the dynamic to fit the life. This household would honestly be happier trying a wide variety of one shot weekends than we do the current attempt at long running games. It's the fight I am building up right now, over time.

    Not saying that's true for you, but that it is really something you want to consider.

    Adapt or Die. It's an essential rule of life,and certainly fucking important for gaming.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Dude, nobody is unsympathetic to your situation. A lot of us don't have the stable games we used to (or they every had them). What we're trying to say is that there's a theme to these threads, and it comes down to you fighting the system rather than trying to finesse the system to work with your situation.

    You keep doing things like labeling Obcasus Rites a "problem," the they're not a problem. The way you insist on using them is a problem because it doesn't work for the situation you're stuck with.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    But instead of seeking advice on how to design better scenarios that can be adjusted on the fly to different characters, you seem intent on house ruling game concepts to be more universal to the character types in question, so you can force whatever thing you find interesting into the game regardless of what your current players might want to do.
    (...)
    So... why aren't you doing that stuff? What's with the focus of trying to bend systems around instead of adapting your ST style to your situation?
    Oh, the thing is - I WOULD want to have stable Table. I really despise, as ST, FATE-like one shot games. If that would be case, I would simply run Indie RPGs, I know few. I may run Beast one-shot scenario only becuase we have Ready Made Characters, so I can plan plot accodingly to them.

    I'm the one ST that prepear center plot of chronicle. I run games to tell the story with my players, not episodic sitcom. ( Games move naturaly from time to time to those area, but it's not my main drive as ST to run games. )

    Problem is simple - there are no stable Tables in Lublin, for a few years now. I maybe start to get one now in my RPG club, after running over year a one game - but still we need recruit next players, as some people do not have time after few months, because of life obligations. So high rotation in modern life expectation.

    So to merry my and gameline ( by mechanics ) major stories plot drive with situation that people come and go in our local community - the slight changes to mechanics are inevitable. Beast is, for now, the best to do it - as I see, only Obcasus Rites are this small problem. The higher problems were with Werewolf, to be fair.

    And yes, in slowly prepared Beast chronicle I think about focusing on searching Dark Mother - so Communion and Rites are natural extension of this drive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Will see on the matter - Communion may refund you the cost of Obcasus Initiate - but by RAW you need Initiatie Merit in the first place to have Communion events. So it looks like this 'Oh, I got now 10 Communions by now - now I can finally make Rites for the Dark Mother'.
    I'm not sure what this means. You agree that Communions effectively refund the investment into the Merit (and can do more since you can use Communion even after you've maxed out on Rites)... there's not logical connection to your last sentence from that. If you're confused, you're inserting things that aren't there.

    To be frank - I think about players doing first Rite even in first session.
    If the players want that? Have one start with the Merit! You can start play with the Merit (it's a two dot Merit, you get 10 dots to start with), have a Guidance written into the character's backstory (easy enough, it's a narrative event), and they start with the Consecrate Rite, and it can be the final part of the first session as the Brood comes together, investigates an appropriate place of power, and makes it a temple.

    This stuff practically writes itself... like the devs made this way easier than you're reading it to be.

    If the players don't want that... Rites are a cool but unnecessary part of the game, forcing it on them isn't fun and will sour them on what should be awesome stuff to work in later if they don't start invested in it. Carrots to get them to dip into it, not sticks to force them into doing what you find interesting.

    Making one of PCs after 2 or 3 scenes 'and now you need to pay my 2 XP for this Merit you need to progress story' - sounds a bit dick-ish on ST part, especially as they can have no XP to pay, yet.
    Yeah. Don't gate stuff behind XP. If none of the PCs have a trait or the XP to buy it (and the inclination to spend their XP in that direction!) don't make it a trait necessary to progress the story.

    If none of the players build a character that uses guns... don't make shooting things with guns an essential plot point that requires success to resolve (esp. not before there's been time in the game to earn up XP and reasons for at least one of them to start buying up Firearms). This is something way beyond the role of Rites and the mechanics around them.

    --------

    While I'm trying to avoid getting too much into the frustrations with your previous threads, can you please address something for us?

    You're playing in a situation where you have a high rotation of players and thus a lack of consistency in what traits the PCs are going to bring to the table. OK. I actually understand that, I've been there in a different style.

    But instead of seeking advice on how to design better scenarios that can be adjusted on the fly to different characters, you seem intent on house ruling game concepts to be more universal to the character types in question, so you can force whatever thing you find interesting into the game regardless of what your current players might want to do.

    IME, this doesn't work. In situations with high player rotation rates, players tend to get focused on a few specific things they want to do with their character (Aspirations are actually a good way to identify these as a formal game concept). If they know that long term play with the same set of characters is not happening, they're going to seek out short term plot points they want for their characters. This mentality does not fit well with, "I, the ST, found this awesome thing and now everyone playing today has to deal with it."

    The most fun I've had playing in high rotation situations is with STs that focus on reading the room, figuring out what they have today, and running something that's as fun as possible for the PCs present rather than being overly focused on big plot stuff they want to see hit. If they really want to run a story about [Thing], but it's not something the players have gotten into yet, they find ways to showcase [Thing] see if the players bite and want to explore [Thing] too. Once there's at least a group of players into [Thing], then plots that deal heavily in [Thing] come up when those players are the dominant group at the table that session.

    So... why aren't you doing that stuff? What's with the focus of trying to bend systems around instead of adapting your ST style to your situation?

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    I can just give players Obcasus Initiate on first Communion - as in XP debt - and let them pay it with the Communion Beats. But it still will work almost as giving it for free, they only be 10 Beats behind.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wormwood
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post


    Will see on the matter - Communion may refund you the cost of Obcasus Initiate - but by RAW you need Initiatie Merit in the first place to have Communion events. So it looks like this 'Oh, I got now 10 Communions by now - now I can finally make Rites for the Dark Mother'.

    To be frank - I think about players doing first Rite even in first session. Making one of PCs after 2 or 3 scenes 'and now you need to pay my 2 XP for this Merit you need to progress story' - sounds a bit dick-ish on ST part, especially as they can have no XP to pay, yet.

    I just see the Obcasus Initiate as needless 'XP moving', when I plan to make Communion large part even opening story.
    Wrong, Wyrd - after ten Communions, the Merit has paid for itself, and from then on onwards, it is the gift that keeps on giving. Imagine you buy a car - that costs a lot of money. But this special car, it doesn't just drive you around, it produces gasoline, which you can sell. So after a certain amount of time (10 communions), you reach the break even point: all the money you invested in the car has been returned. From here on, it's like you got a free car that produces money. So yes, you need to invest 2 xp in it. In the long run, that's a pretty good investment.

    So have a NPC ready that takes over that job. Make them buy it with their character creation merit points. Structure your story so that they are necessary for the Rite and take part, but don't lead it (why would they need to lead it?) Make it part of the story that they have to go and FIND someone who knows Rites, have them argue and haggle with him to help them out, then later have him explain the concept to them, and then, if they are interested, they may spend their accumulated xp on the Merit so they no longer need the NPC (hell, maybe he gets some comeuppance for his jerkassery? Or maybe it's a touching 'No, my protege, YOU are now the Leader!' scene. Get creative! Seriously, man, you see bugs, all I see are features.)


    And if you thing Obcasus Initiate is needless, then just be done with it and simply ignore that it exists. No one's stopping you. Whatever works for your table. You do you. Just be aware that it changes quite a few things about the game. I have to say, however: This reminds me a lot about that other topic you had about how Siskur-Dah was a merit tax or something.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    It doesn't matter, you get 1 Beat for Resolving a Condition, a Beat section is only necessary for gaining Beats without resolving it.
    (...)
    Resolving Communion ten times pays for the Initiate Merit by itself, without getting XP from any other area. The only other place you need to be pulling XP towards is raising Lair... which was worth doing before the PG came out.
    Okay, so for sleep after Communion character get's both new Rite and 1 Beat for resolution. Very positive stuff here. And yes, now I see it's a bit perpetum mobile with ST involved in granting Communion.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Right, a limit of 21 Rites (Intelligence 11 with Epic Potential, Lair 10).
    I missed Epic Potential as not every one of players can take it. But thanks for pointing it out - in Beast Epic Potential can be taken often for players, so I will have this in my mind.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    There are currently 12 Rites. So a Rites oriented character can learn all the current Rites, and have room for nine custom ones... doesn't seem like a problem. If your concern is "half the Rites in the PG," then any starting character focusing on being an Initiate is going to be close to that number (Intelligence 4-5, Lair 1), esp. since focusing on Intelligence gets them both more Rites and likely a better Rites dice-pool (since it's your Horror's Power Attribute which is your highest of the standard ones)
    Okay, so the number of Rites limit is not a problem, really. Thanks for pointing out.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Well... don't house rule it to be the inner magic of all Begotten then? They already have Atavisms, Nightmares, and a slew of innate powers without Rites. Accessing Rites specifically requires communion with the Dark Mother, making "high priest," the more accurate of the two. It's not that strong of an "inner" magic if you have to go through a spiritual quest to the Dark Mother to get it.
    Will see on the matter - Communion may refund you the cost of Obcasus Initiate - but by RAW you need Initiatie Merit in the first place to have Communion events. So it looks like this 'Oh, I got now 10 Communions by now - now I can finally make Rites for the Dark Mother'.

    To be frank - I think about players doing first Rite even in first session. Making one of PCs after 2 or 3 scenes 'and now you need to pay my 2 XP for this Merit you need to progress story' - sounds a bit dick-ish on ST part, especially as they can have no XP to pay, yet.

    I just see the Obcasus Initiate as needless 'XP moving', when I plan to make Communion large part even opening story.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    I do not see this from Communion - as Condition do not have Beats section to generate more XP for character to rise traits.
    It doesn't matter, you get 1 Beat for Resolving a Condition, a Beat section is only necessary for gaining Beats without resolving it.

    ...hard limit of Int+Lair is still in place.
    Right, a limit of 21 Rites (Intelligence 11 with Epic Potential, Lair 10). There are currently 12 Rites. So a Rites oriented character can learn all the current Rites, and have room for nine custom ones... doesn't seem like a problem. If your concern is "half the Rites in the PG," then any starting character focusing on being an Initiate is going to be close to that number (Intelligence 4-5, Lair 1), esp. since focusing on Intelligence gets them both more Rites and likely a better Rites dice-pool (since it's your Horror's Power Attribute which is your highest of the standard ones)

    That you need to rise from XP generated in other areas. It's only investment on shoulders of particular character.
    Resolving Communion ten times pays for the Initiate Merit by itself, without getting XP from any other area. The only other place you need to be pulling XP towards is raising Lair... which was worth doing before the PG came out.

    You say 'role of high priest in the cult of Dark Mother', to me it's more 'inner magic of all Begotten'.
    Well... don't house rule it to be the inner magic of all Begotten then? They already have Atavisms, Nightmares, and a slew of innate powers without Rites. Accessing Rites specifically requires communion with the Dark Mother, making "high priest," the more accurate of the two. It's not that strong of an "inner" magic if you have to go through a spiritual quest to the Dark Mother to get it.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    As it stands, the way a character gets more room to learn additional Rites is to raise their Lair and/or Intelligence, either one of which is within the reach of a Beast character who regularly experiences Communion.
    I do not see this from Communion - as Condition do not have Beats section to generate more XP for character to rise traits. Condition states only that character can learn next Rite - from my reading of BPG, hard limit of Int+Lair is still in place. That you need to rise from XP generated in other areas. It's only investment on shoulders of particular character.


    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Waiving the entry requirements for the role of high priest in the cult of the Dark Mother isn't going to solve that in a meaningful way.
    You say 'role of high priest in the cult of Dark Mother', to me it's more 'inner magic of all Begotten'. Even by RAW every PC Beast can learn to use Obcasus Rite - it just needs story reasons ( connected by Conditions ) and one Merit.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    So you will not answer me. It's Hack concept
    It's you making yet another thread asking for help untangling your decidedly nonstandard table structure from the complications it brings to running games that are written under the assumption that a troupe will build their stories with their own attendance schedules in mind.

    You could save everyone a lot of trouble by just making one thread on the general Chronicles board to deal with this recurring issue instead of assuming every problem you encounter as a direct result of your trying to contort game concepts into things that they aren't warrants a separate topic.

    As it stands, the way a character gets more room to learn additional Rites is to raise their Lair and/or Intelligence, either one of which is within the reach of a Beast character who regularly experiences Communion. This is a game whose narrative mechanics are built around fairly long arcs and your table is structured in such a way that it is antithetical to long arcs with the same characters. Waiving the entry requirements for the role of high priest in the cult of the Dark Mother isn't going to solve that in a meaningful way.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
    Seconding Satchel here: being an Initiate says a lot more about the Character in question than just "Can lead a Rite". Just like a fighting style, Aif of Menace or Epic Iron Skin, it says something about the personality, goals, approaches to life etc. (Satchel put it way better than me.)
    Okay, yeah, I can see this as being 'marked' by as character concept. It's only... ( see answers below )

    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
    Plus unless all PCs are seriously invested, I don't see why they'd need more than one Initiate - 1) you need several Characters to participate anyway, so everyone being able to lead doesn't really give the PCs much, and remember, everyone should have a niche where they excell, and being the Initiate may well be one such niche,
    Initiate have only limited number of Rites to learn - Intelligence + Lair, to be precise. And if I need more Rites in game - I think about incorporating more than half of them, on possible chronicle plots idea.

    Thinking about it, maybe Obcasus Initiate could stay as Merit - only being someone special, as not 'that guy that knows Rites', only more 'that guy that is really super good with Rites'. I could see this easily. Probably not called Initiate then, rather Adept - but marking character as really specializing in Rites none the less.

    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
    2) it robs you of that sweet sweet "Go Save Miraculix" plotline. Seriously, I am a proponent of there being few Initiates, as it indicates a devotion far above normal, and their 'power' certainly gives them a certain standing among their Family (think Witchdoctor). This makes them a juicy target and allows them to serve any role from Plot Device, Mentor, Call to Adventure all the way down to McGuffin.
    Don't rob yourself of that, man.
    It's great idea for the normal groups, for sure. But as I run lately games in RPG club, I found that high players rotation is Inevitable in this configurations. And losing player that is your only 'shaman' is real blow into face, if game is Rites heavy. I literally have this problem now in my run Werewolf game - we lost player that was Ithaeur, come to part in chronicle the we need some Rites for Uratha to perform - and it's a problem. Now players ask me to look for next players and ask them to choose any concept - but only if they are Ithaeur.

    In BtP loosening rules with Rites is much simpler, as you only need one Merit to open them ( and story reasons ). I just want to cut the Merit cost, as probably most players need to be Initiates a lot.

    So muse me and let's talk about this Hack to BtP assuming I need it from game-managing reasons.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-22-2018, 11:06 AM.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    EDIT: Will repost this in the Ask a Simple Question thread when Wyrdhamster posts his question there.
    So you will not answer me. It's Hack concept, this kind topics was made by years in split topics to see implications, on this forum. It's not Simple Question in any vicinity, as we talk about game implications here.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-22-2018, 01:58 AM.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    EDIT: Will repost this in the Ask a Simple Question thread when Wyrdhamster posts his question there.
    Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 04-21-2018, 04:01 PM.

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  • Wormwood
    replied
    Seconding Satchel here: being an Initiate says a lot more about the Character in question than just "Can lead a Rite". Just like a fighting style, Aif of Menace or Epic Iron Skin, it says something about the personality, goals, approaches to life etc. (Satchel put it way better than me.)

    Plus unless all PCs are seriously invested, I don't see why they'd need more than one Initiate - 1) you need several Characters to participate anyway, so everyone being able to lead doesn't really give the PCs much, and remember, everyone should have a niche where they excell, and being the Initiate may well be one such niche, and 2) it robs you of that sweet sweet "Go Save Miraculix" plotline. Seriously, I am a proponent of there being few Initiates, as it indicates a devotion far above normal, and their 'power' certainly gives them a certain standing among their Family (think Witchdoctor). This makes them a juicy target and allows them to serve any role from Plot Device, Mentor, Call to Adventure all the way down to McGuffin.
    Don't rob yourself of that, man.

    Leave a comment:

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