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Theories on Dark Mother

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
    The Dark Mother could easily be Luna. This version of Luna seems a lot more horrific than the version we had in the oWoD or the version we have in Creation.
    I think more likely it would be humanity's distant memories of Father Wolf Luna is pretty nasty but fear is a small aspect of her.

    Probably not the way I'd go, the Dark Mother seemed more like Beasts glomming onto an idea common in other supernaturals because they're so anchored to them.
    Last edited by nofather; 05-02-2018, 06:14 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ajf115 View Post

      Ah, sorry if I came over as overly-dismissive. Ideas are great, and it brought up an angle I hadn't really thought of. I do like Luna, I just don't think She's really close enough in theme to be the Mother - she's too distant, too disconnected to really fit my image of the Dark Mum.
      No problem! I didn’t take it as condescending or anything, so, it’s no sweat.

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      • #33
        Maybe the dark mother is the primal id

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
          While that's a cool idea, I don't really feel that it's human-centric enough. The Dark Mother, the Primordial Dream and the beings of them (Beasts, Horrors etc) are intensely human things. They are defined by their relationship with humanity. A Gentry's detritus doesn't really fit that. At least in my opinion.
          Well, no, ajf115 - Dark Mother is clearly primal and not liking 'human elements' in their Beasts. Let's look into BPG then...

          Originally posted by Beast Player's Guide, p. 156
          The Begotten are Primordial, but still creatures of human fears, and in the Mother’s Land are out of their habitat. Their Horrors were born of its energies, formed into shape by the pressure of the human soul, and without that pressure they escape like air released into a vacuum. Travelers in the Mother’s Land feel themselves being consumed by it, their individual sapient existence blurring and breaking down until they vanish from the Land, waking wherever they first took on Dream Form, suffering as though a Horror had consumed them, and (for Beasts so consumed) starving. A few Beasts believe this is the Dark Mother herself feeding on intruders into her Land and repeatedly offer themselves up as a sign of devotion.
          Dark Mother literally devour your's human part of psyche in journey to Her Land. So no, I would say that Dark Mother is first and foremost the most atavistic, monstrous part of each Begotten. She, Primordial Dream and Horrors can be shown by contrasting them with humanity - but the root of each Beast is totally inhuman. And in that, Mother CAN be the left Ruler from more wild and alien times of Arcadia, where Fear more ruled than Beauty.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-03-2018, 12:51 AM.


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          • #35
            Luna is living and breathing Shadow Goddess - She is shown from time to time to Forsaken, her powers works, she has Lunes, etc. Dark Mother is much more ephemeral imprint on the world - you can hear or feel her, but ( by canon ) you will not see her in flesh. Dark Mother is much more like long, but living memory of real Goddess.

            To me, Dark Mother and Luna both work best as SISTERS ( conceptually, at least ) - you know, with even how Earth and Moon are practically made from half of the same stuff. If Shadow Realm of Earth is the Gaea herself, in all it's manifestation and all, and Luna is only God that protect it from Deep Space, 'out of good heart', I can it see Luna being sister to Gaea. And then Dark Mother is primordial dream/imprint/memory of Gaea...

            Also, remember that in Werewolf 2E, Luna is changing sexes at will - or have them non at all. So it's Moon Mother one moment - and Father Moon next. It's much less allegory of Dark Mother when half of time it's literally the Father.


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            • #36
              That ecstatic phenomenon being the Dark Mother’s doing is only what Beasts believe, and of course BPG focuses on what Beasts believe. Other beings will have different ideas. (And for once, mages manage to have a simple theory for it; the world is big, you aren’t, therefore you are swept away)

              But going against my previous theory and accepting the idea of the Mother being inhuman, another theory: Remember Changing Breeds? How it spoke of Nature as a living entity, and as what Fera ardently worship? And how the Fera are somewhat misanthropic? Now, considering that animal-shapeshifters are immune to the Ecstatic Winds...


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              • #37
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                Well, no, ajf115 - Dark Mother is clearly primal and not liking 'human elements' in their Beasts. Let's look into BPG then...
                I agree that she is a primal force, but she's focused on humanity in a way that other such entities aren't. She is humanity's fear, not some cosmic principle of fear.

                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                Dark Mother literally devour your's human part of psyche in journey to Her Land. So no, I would say that Dark Mother is first and foremost the most atavistic, monstrous part of each Begotten. She, Primordial Dream and Horrors can be shown by contrasting them with humanity - but the root of each Beast is totally inhuman. And in that, Mother CAN be the left Ruler from more wild and alien times of Arcadia, where Fear more ruled than Beauty.
                First, that's called out as the fringe opinion of 'a few Beasts' who, let's face it, aren't exactly objective when it comes to dealing with Nightmare Mom. I agree with 21C Hermit ^. The Mother's Land is just what they call the Anima Mundi, and wrongly in my mind. Second, I can certainly see the idea of the Dark Mother being a deep, atavistic part of all Beasts as a valid one.

                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                Luna is living and breathing Shadow Goddess - She is shown from time to time to Forsaken, her powers works, she has Lunes, etc. Dark Mother is much more ephemeral imprint on the world - you can hear or feel her, but ( by canon ) you will not see her in flesh. Dark Mother is much more like long, but living memory of real Goddess.

                To me, Dark Mother and Luna both work best as SISTERS ( conceptually, at least ) - you know, with even how Earth and Moon are practically made from half of the same stuff. If Shadow Realm of Earth is the Gaea herself, in all it's manifestation and all, and Luna is only God that protect it from Deep Space, 'out of good heart', I can it see Luna being sister to Gaea. And then Dark Mother is primordial dream/imprint/memory of Gaea...

                Also, remember that in Werewolf 2E, Luna is changing sexes at will - or have them non at all. So it's Moon Mother one moment - and Father Moon next. It's much less allegory of Dark Mother when half of time it's literally the Father.
                Luna does work upon the world, but she's still distant in a way that Nightmare Mom simply isn't. Mom makes an appearance, a personal appearance, for each of her Begotten, while Luna sends messengers.

                I'm not sure I could see Mom and Luna as 'blood sisters', for lack of a better word - that is, beings of the same type - and I don't really associate the Dark Mother with Gaea so strongly, but I do see your point. As I said before, they do complement each other and work towards a similar goal. Perhaps some version of lovers, or friends? Although I'm bringing in Exalted here and the thing they have going on between Gaia and Luna, and I do prefer a sisterly relationship between Luna and Gaea Herself rather than the spectre of the fear of the two-legged ants crawling on Her surface.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
                  I agree that she is a primal force, but she's focused on humanity in a way that other such entities aren't. She is humanity's fear, not some cosmic principle of fear.
                  Where do you read Dark Mother is whole humanity's fear idea? Because how come Horrors from Mother Land Larvas and that Progenitors of Families are firmly in Mother Land - would imply that core of Horrors identity is in Anima Mundi, not in the Temonos. And that means that core of Horror is atavistic and animalistic, not humanity's fears joined to this core. Mother spawns Horrors Larvas as literal 'animalistic beasts', not 'human fears'. Human part is only added as they cross to Temenos and enters dreams of humans. Look on the bolded parts below:

                  Originally posted by Beast Player's Guide, p. 156
                  The Mother’s Land isn’t just a nature lover’s paradise, it is the birthplace of Horrors. In dark corners, deep forests, and high mountains, Dreamborn formed out of basic animal terrors dwell, protean monsters that stalk, threaten, repulse, trap, or expose the animal Dreamborn wandering the Land.

                  These monsters are unborn, larval Horrors. Sometimes, a Beast entering the Land catches sight of one moving the other way, driven by some unknowable instinct to move through the Cave.

                  As they travel into the Primordial Dream, the fear-Dreamborn take shape, absorbing human legend as they enter the Mists and eventually find an unclaimed Chamber to settle in, turning it into a nascent Heart. A handful of legends speak of great Progenitor-Beasts Laired somewhere within the Mother’s Land, the originating Horrors of each Family.
                  As to other point...
                  Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
                  Luna does work upon the world, but she's still distant in a way that Nightmare Mom simply isn't. Mom makes an appearance, a personal appearance, for each of her Begotten, while Luna sends messengers.
                  Dark Mother sending hallucinations in the Communion to her Begotten is doing the same as Luna sending dreams to her Cahaliths ( or other werewolves with prophetic powers ). Then Luna sends her messenger in (ephemeral) flesh - i.e. Lunes - where Dark Mother do not. AND Luna's Avatars are seen, from time to time, to walk the Shadow Realm - Dark Mother is ( by canon ) not seen ANYWHERE.
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-03-2018, 03:29 AM.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
                    While that's a cool idea, I don't really feel that it's human-centric enough. The Dark Mother, the Primordial Dream and the beings of them (Beasts, Horrors etc) are intensely human things. They are defined by their relationship with humanity. A Gentry's detritus doesn't really fit that. At least in my opinion.
                    That's actually what I like about it the most. An exiled would steadily gain a certain amount of humanity, while never being human. I don want the dark mother to be human- I want her to be an alien force protecting us from an even more alien force (the primogenitor). Why? Not for us, but because the primogenitor encroaches on what is hers- her food, her realm, her children.

                    Edit: I note you use. The word detritus, but I was thinking more the general idea of splitting off a piece of yourself that is still sentient. If you're familiar with Eberron, think Aureon and The Shadow.
                    Last edited by ArchonAres; 05-03-2018, 05:39 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                      Where do you read Dark Mother is whole humanity's fear idea?.
                      Horrors do come from there, but why does that matter?
                      Here is a relevant quote, but I'm sure you can find plenty others in both books to prove that the Dark Mother interacts with humans mostly, or even solely.

                      Originally posted by BPG, p. 138
                      ​Most Beasts believe that the Dark Mother is tied to the Primordial Dream; it’s the details that get murky. Some insist She drew the Dream into existence to exert Her influence and give Her Children a home, while others believe She is a manifestation of the Dream itself...

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                      • #41
                        Let’s also remind ourselves that the line of Human vs. Inhuman/Monstrous is a rather fuzzy one in the CofD. We hardly have reasons to fight here.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          Let’s also remind ourselves that the line of Human vs. Inhuman/Monstrous is a rather fuzzy one in the CofD. We hardly have reasons to fight here.
                          Yeah, sorry, should specify. I meant humans inclusively. The supernatural splats are part of the primordial dream as well.
                          My point was that even though Horrors can prey on animals in the Anima Mundi/Mother's Land, the Dark Mother and the Begotten work in the Primordial Dream, which is only connected to human-like creatures. (don't really know how should I call them)

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by IceBen View Post

                            Yeah, sorry, should specify. I meant humans inclusively. The supernatural splats are part of the primordial dream as well.
                            My point was that even though Horrors can prey on animals in the Anima Mundi/Mother's Land, the Dark Mother and the Begotten work in the Primordial Dream, which is only connected to human-like creatures. (don't really know how should I call them)
                            Oh, I wasn’t trying to criticize a specific theory, since they’re all, you know, theories. Sorry if I sounded dismissive.


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                            • #44
                              The Dark mother i've always been hesitant on, as if were given a definitive answer i feel it could negatively effect the other gamelines. Still i do find her probably one of the better mysteries of the setting. I don't like the notion she is the actual "Mother of all Monsters" in a literal sense, as not only would beast be made everyones big brother (An actual issue some beast are stated to have in the book IIRC) but also making it so Mummies, Vampires, Geist, and all that are related seems really silly and probably does lessen the Horror of the True Fae and Judges, but she clearly has some relation to most Supernatural beings, with the exception of the good old GM.

                              The lack of a relation to the God-Machine is probably what intrigues me the most about her tbh, what makes the Techognostic beings so different from the others.Why does she refuse to associate with them?

                              I have no ideas on what she could be, but i do think it should be a mystery that's never solved.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Penguinbowler View Post
                                I have no ideas on what she could be, but i do think it should be a mystery that's never solved.
                                I'm sorry to say but she's kinda solved already.
                                The Dark Mother is a god tier Astral entity. She's not literally the mother of all monsters, but she's that archetype in a realm where symbols manifest literally, meaning she would treat all monsters as her children whether it was true or not. That is most likely the reason Beasts can form kinship with other monsters; they're connected to the Astral and to the Dark Mother and thus treats Kinship as being true, so much that they can even gain mechanical benefits from it. Note that other monsters don't get automatic good first impressions with each other, or any ability to form Kinship.
                                Last edited by Tessie; 05-05-2019, 10:48 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tag


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