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  • #46
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    I'm sorry to say but she's kinda solved already.
    The Dark Mother is a god tier Astral entity. She's not literally the mother of all monsters, but she's that archetype in a realm where symbols manifest literally, meaning she would treat all monsters as her children whether it was true or not. That is most likely the reason Beasts can form kinship with other monsters; they're connected to the Astral and to the Dark Mother and thus treats Kinship as being true, so much that they can even gain mechanical benefits from it. Note that other monsters don't get automatic good first impressions with each other, or any ability to form Kinship.
    Ah that's bnpth sad and neat...

    was it from the players guide? Because i haven't read the players guide.

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    • #47
      Most of it can be inferred from the nature of Beasts, knowledge about the Astral (primarily from Mage but BPG also touches upon it), and the realisation that Kinship can't be literal as it would negate the confirmed origins of some of the other splats. Especially werewolves whose origin had little to no cause for doubt in Werewolf (at least the broad strokes version) and was later confirmed and expanded upon in Dark Eras.
      Short dev confirmation can be found here.
      Even without the BPG further cementing the Dark Mother as an Astral entity it's really the most logical and likely explanation. Note that this doesn't actually limit how powerful she can be (compare with the Aeons who are gods of the Arcana while also being Astral entities), or explain why Beasts are created or in what other capacities she might differ from other Goetia.
      Last edited by Tessie; 05-06-2019, 06:25 AM.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
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      • #48
        I need help in unsual Begotten - I prepare NPC from Byzantine Empire that belives it's Horror is reincarnation of Abrahamic Mother Mary. Best would be from Greek or Minor Asia cultures. Anyone have idea on mother mythological that would be appropiate? I'm not sure Echidna is good, as she clearly is pointed as only negative mother in Greek myths, so not working for this idea.


        My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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        • #49
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          I need help in unsual Begotten - I prepare NPC from Byzantine Empire that belives it's Horror is reincarnation of Abrahamic Mother Mary. Best would be from Greek or Minor Asia cultures. Anyone have idea on mother mythological that would be appropiate? I'm not sure Echidna is good, as she clearly is pointed as only negative mother in Greek myths, so not working for this idea.
          Clear counter arguement:

          Why the fuck not just make the NPC claimed by Monstrous Mother Mary.

          Like, you don't need to fuck around "Like this thing but not this thing" when the whole of everything else after the figure's point of concern is Bloody Fucking Christianity and the Multitudes of Murder It Commits On It's Wake but Is Still Fucking Revered.

          Horrors are more Primordial than something like a Mother Fucking Mary type is. You want a goetia humping the line between Primordial and Bright, not some Horror.

          Short version: You want a Goetia Claimed, not a Beast, I am hella telling you.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

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          • #50
            What if the Dark Mother was originally an Insatiable who killed the Primogenitor and took his place as ruler of the Primordial Dream? And maybe she was the one who taught the Circle of the Crone how to use Cruac.

            Just a suggestion to the admins: when you Like someone’s post, it would be cool if they knew who Liked it.


            “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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            • #51
              I don’t believe the Dark Mother’s claim to be the mother of all monsters. I’ve read some of the other CoD books and there’s no evidence of a single unified origin. (Kind of like the Kithain in Changeling: the Dreaming who think all the other supernaturals are fallen Prodigals.)


              “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                I don’t believe the Dark Mother’s claim to be the mother of all monsters. I’ve read some of the other CoD books and there’s no evidence of a single unified origin. (Kind of like the Kithain in Changeling: the Dreaming who think all the other supernaturals are fallen Prodigals.)
                Well remember the books will also vary around in who's viewpoint they're from. The Dark Mother never claims to be the origin for all the monster species because she doesn't really speak most of the time. The rituals that occaisionally connect to her connect to something though one can always have the reality be what they want when its their own table.

                The thing on Beasts is they figure all the other supernaturals have a connection to them, ergo there must be a reason for it and they're logic is common origin point. Mage used to have one claiming all the other supernaturals were humans who screwed up their awakening and locked themselves into certain things, so its about as accurate or not as you want it to be at your game.

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                • #53
                  nalak42 makes sense. What’s your theory on why Beasts feel Kinship with other supernaturals?


                  “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                    nalak42 makes sense. What’s your theory on why Beasts feel Kinship with other supernaturals?
                    Monsters from the Id.
                    Beasts arise from/are part of the collective unconscious with the Horror remaining in the Primordial Dream and the human side acting as access to meat space/outside the Lair. The Dark Mother (because I feel this should connect to the thread a bit.) whether some sort of natural/supernatural system or a conscious entity is where the amalgamations and compressions of disturbances and disruptions are compiled together to create said the unbound Horrors.

                    As for where the connection comes from, if you go with the Beast idea that the other supernaturals originated from the Primordial Dream, as Beasts do, then the idea would be that these were particularly puiscient nightmares and fears, creating monsters that managed to carve a physical space for themselves in the real world. A number of possible options there that one could go into for a game even including the idea that at least one faction came about by bringing about a merger only with its Lair and the reality of the world.

                    If you subscribe to the idea that Beasts are wrong about that idea then part of it could be that the the various awakenings and such bring one more in contact with the primordial dream. To use the water metaphor, if Heroes are things skimming the surface and Beasts are fish swimming under the water then the others would be things like turtles that and ducks that are partially under the water while still inhabitting the world above the waters. The other ,and my preferred, is just that the others are tied into the horrors of humanity that populate the collective unconscious. Basically these things ,whether originating from there or not, have carved such a chunk out of the human psyche that they are a part of a something in the Primordial Dream creating a lesser connection than the human one, but still distinguishable from the connection it would have just because part of it is human. This would also be part of why the Unchained don't resonate since even though they're called demons they have nothing in common with the demons people are familiar with in mythology and pop culture. (Hell even Soul Pacts don't actually involve the soul.)

                    Of course this is all just my own speculation and hypothesizing and such.

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                    • #55
                      I mean, you're an Astral symbol of multitudes based around the abstractions of fear and anxieties into primordially recognizable forms finding flesh and breath in an accordant persona. In other words, you're a person who's soul is basically a huge and heavily charged sympathy center for the concept of monster, nevermind how the entire lineage goes back to the embodiment of the recognition of the idea of monsters at all.

                      At some point, if such an entity(Beasts) didn't feel Kinship to monsters and, given the occultic nature to incarnate, didn't manifest that through some thread of reality warping, I'd be more worried about reality being broken than the monsters roaming around me.

                      The Dark Mother doesn't have to literally be the Mother of All Monsters, because she is symbolically the Mother of All Monsters in a way that bleeds between human's particular conception of itself and the fundamental facts of the world, and in a world where truth is mist, shadows, illusion, and dream, that might be even better than actually literally being the Mother of All Monsters.

                      Likewise, Beasts don't have to be literal Kin to everything to be iconographically a being who everyone knows the feeling of and is disturbed by. Beasts literally embody the idea that all monsters wrestle with(and realistically are), and when someone is those thoughts and feelings on the subject, that's an intimacy that you cannot describe in a way that falls outside of kinship-and if it feels like a thing, the Astral treats it as a thing.

                      Freud's Id is a good starting point, but Jung's Shadow is more on point, as an aside.

                      But basically, every Beast basically is a living symbolic sympathetic connnection, and for the human experience of that, it means all monsters feel like family.

                      Now to make this fun, their literal nature as a being who is now tied to the fundamental nature of humanity also means that humanity feels like family as much as monsters do-but within the confines and conceptions that accompany being a Archetype of Monster as Humanity Experiences It.

                      We always hurt the ones we love.
                      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-10-2019, 02:21 AM.


                      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Feminine pronouns, please.

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                      • #56
                        nalak42 I like your theory, especially about the Unchained.

                        ArcaneArts “we always hurt the ones we love” yeah, that’s true


                        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                          ArcaneArts “we always hurt the ones we love” yeah, that’s true
                          I would not personally call that the centerpoint of my post, but okay.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • #58
                            ArcaneArts sorry. I skimmed over most of it and only read the last line. I definitely agree with the part where you compare the Beasts to Jung’s idea of the Shadow.


                            “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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