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Theories on Dark Mother

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic Theories on Dark Mother

    Theories on Dark Mother

    As I’m (very slowly) preparing my Beast chronicle about searching for the Dark Mother – I thought that topic about sharing your ideas on her existence or doings would be great plot creators. Any of this theories can be rebuked by pointing holes in it, in arguments below. Or show your owns theories. So here are my ideas on Dark Mother…
    1. Dark Mother IS Mother’s Land – Dark Mother is not singular being. She is whole of Mother’s Land – and the Land is extension of her will. Calling her Echidna or Tiamat is only half of the story. Her true name should be Gaea, as she created whole universe. Begotten are just her Children marked with purpose with fulfilling dark deeds in this world. She is so vast and all containing, that even the progenitors of Families ( Anakim, Namtar, Ugall, etc. ) in the Land are only the closest to the real avatars of her being.
    2. Dark Mother is Kinship races – Dark Mother lives in her Children. All of them. Each created ‘monster race’ have a shard of her power. On beginning she was singular being. With each ‘birth’ of the new race, she lost parts of herself, giving it to the new Children – vampires got her fangs and hunger, werewolves got her multiple shapeshifting forms and rage, mages were marked with her magic and obsessions. And Begotten recalled her memory and mind. Some monsters remember half of this truth – that’s why exists Circle of the Crone, Mysterium or Centimani. To return Mother in one being, each member of monster races must be sacrificed with unholy, epic Obcasus Rite – but who would do such thing?
    3. Dark Mother is in the Underworld – Dark Mother is dead. Many myths ends with slaying the Tiamat, Echidna or other Monster Goddess. And they are true. Mother’s Land and her Communions are only after effect of her existence – ripples on water of universe, Dream shades of once all-powerful being. No, real Mother is in vast Lands of the Dead. Once killed, her physical form rot and was devoured by her Children. What’s left of her, her essence, her… soul? – moved as first guest to the Underworld, opening locked Land of the Dead before this act, literally starting the journey of the ghosts to the Ocean of Fragments. This is why Underworld looks more or less likes caves – this form is most natural representation of the Cave of Mother in Dark Dream, the very first Lair. Tale is that who finds her soul, laid in Underworld, may rebirth her once again, in flesh, by channeling her in his Horrorspawn. Can you find your dead Mother?
    4. Dark Mother is Shadow Realm – Other, primal reflection of Material World that spawns countless monster being that are most concerned with how to feed their Essence hunger? Sounds familiar? Story is that on beginning of time, Dream and Shadow were one. There were no difference into what thought and take in high esteem humanity and the world around it. Just like Mother Land can be Gaea herself – so the Shadow is manifestation of ancient titan goddess. Werewolves parents, Wolf and Moon, were two of most noticeable Children of Gaea – or sisters, as sometimes is pointed on relation between Gaea and Luna. Point is that Gaea was Pangea – and Pangea was Gaea. And Pangea was a Dream, at the same time. But then come humanity – and after centuries – there come Sundering. It not only separated Flesh from Spirit – but the Dream from the Spirit a like. The problem is that very essence off Dark Mother – as greatest of Pangeans – is now locked in the Shadow Realm. Precisely, she IS the Shadow. Do not look like that on me. How to fix this – I simply do not know. Maybe recreating the Pangea will resurrect the Dark Mother in flesh?
    5. Dark Mother is once Arcadia’s Ruler – Once Arcadia was beautiful primal land, exotic and dangerous, but the beautiful none the less. Dark Mother was one of its rulers, terrible but beautiful being of terror that spawned wild monsters, willing them into existence with her all-powerful magic. Huntsman were her subjects – and she ruled over distance humanity, from time to time sending Lessons on them in vain of living stories that were to teach humans of their place in universe. But then came rebellion. New Arcadian beings come to her – those Gentry, Lords and Ladies, were clearly weaker than her – but they were numerous. They dethroned her, ruling now Arcadia in pieces, leading they everlasting Feuds over who of them should be sole ruler of Faerie. As to Dark Mother, story is not clear – is she slayed by Gentry army? Or she was just banished, hiding in Mother’s Land? What’s sure is that even eons after those events, our Mother needs her army to take back what’s rightfully her and ours. And as her Children, we gladly answer to this call.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-29-2018, 05:15 AM.

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    Guest replied
    ArcaneArts sorry. I skimmed over most of it and only read the last line. I definitely agree with the part where you compare the Beasts to Jung’s idea of the Shadow.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post

    ArcaneArts “we always hurt the ones we love” yeah, that’s true
    I would not personally call that the centerpoint of my post, but okay.

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    Guest replied
    nalak42 I like your theory, especially about the Unchained.

    ArcaneArts “we always hurt the ones we love” yeah, that’s true

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    I mean, you're an Astral symbol of multitudes based around the abstractions of fear and anxieties into primordially recognizable forms finding flesh and breath in an accordant persona. In other words, you're a person who's soul is basically a huge and heavily charged sympathy center for the concept of monster, nevermind how the entire lineage goes back to the embodiment of the recognition of the idea of monsters at all.

    At some point, if such an entity(Beasts) didn't feel Kinship to monsters and, given the occultic nature to incarnate, didn't manifest that through some thread of reality warping, I'd be more worried about reality being broken than the monsters roaming around me.

    The Dark Mother doesn't have to literally be the Mother of All Monsters, because she is symbolically the Mother of All Monsters in a way that bleeds between human's particular conception of itself and the fundamental facts of the world, and in a world where truth is mist, shadows, illusion, and dream, that might be even better than actually literally being the Mother of All Monsters.

    Likewise, Beasts don't have to be literal Kin to everything to be iconographically a being who everyone knows the feeling of and is disturbed by. Beasts literally embody the idea that all monsters wrestle with(and realistically are), and when someone is those thoughts and feelings on the subject, that's an intimacy that you cannot describe in a way that falls outside of kinship-and if it feels like a thing, the Astral treats it as a thing.

    Freud's Id is a good starting point, but Jung's Shadow is more on point, as an aside.

    But basically, every Beast basically is a living symbolic sympathetic connnection, and for the human experience of that, it means all monsters feel like family.

    Now to make this fun, their literal nature as a being who is now tied to the fundamental nature of humanity also means that humanity feels like family as much as monsters do-but within the confines and conceptions that accompany being a Archetype of Monster as Humanity Experiences It.

    We always hurt the ones we love.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-10-2019, 02:21 AM.

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  • nalak42
    replied
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    nalak42 makes sense. What’s your theory on why Beasts feel Kinship with other supernaturals?
    Monsters from the Id.
    Beasts arise from/are part of the collective unconscious with the Horror remaining in the Primordial Dream and the human side acting as access to meat space/outside the Lair. The Dark Mother (because I feel this should connect to the thread a bit.) whether some sort of natural/supernatural system or a conscious entity is where the amalgamations and compressions of disturbances and disruptions are compiled together to create said the unbound Horrors.

    As for where the connection comes from, if you go with the Beast idea that the other supernaturals originated from the Primordial Dream, as Beasts do, then the idea would be that these were particularly puiscient nightmares and fears, creating monsters that managed to carve a physical space for themselves in the real world. A number of possible options there that one could go into for a game even including the idea that at least one faction came about by bringing about a merger only with its Lair and the reality of the world.

    If you subscribe to the idea that Beasts are wrong about that idea then part of it could be that the the various awakenings and such bring one more in contact with the primordial dream. To use the water metaphor, if Heroes are things skimming the surface and Beasts are fish swimming under the water then the others would be things like turtles that and ducks that are partially under the water while still inhabitting the world above the waters. The other ,and my preferred, is just that the others are tied into the horrors of humanity that populate the collective unconscious. Basically these things ,whether originating from there or not, have carved such a chunk out of the human psyche that they are a part of a something in the Primordial Dream creating a lesser connection than the human one, but still distinguishable from the connection it would have just because part of it is human. This would also be part of why the Unchained don't resonate since even though they're called demons they have nothing in common with the demons people are familiar with in mythology and pop culture. (Hell even Soul Pacts don't actually involve the soul.)

    Of course this is all just my own speculation and hypothesizing and such.

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    Guest replied
    nalak42 makes sense. What’s your theory on why Beasts feel Kinship with other supernaturals?

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  • nalak42
    replied
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    I don’t believe the Dark Mother’s claim to be the mother of all monsters. I’ve read some of the other CoD books and there’s no evidence of a single unified origin. (Kind of like the Kithain in Changeling: the Dreaming who think all the other supernaturals are fallen Prodigals.)
    Well remember the books will also vary around in who's viewpoint they're from. The Dark Mother never claims to be the origin for all the monster species because she doesn't really speak most of the time. The rituals that occaisionally connect to her connect to something though one can always have the reality be what they want when its their own table.

    The thing on Beasts is they figure all the other supernaturals have a connection to them, ergo there must be a reason for it and they're logic is common origin point. Mage used to have one claiming all the other supernaturals were humans who screwed up their awakening and locked themselves into certain things, so its about as accurate or not as you want it to be at your game.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I don’t believe the Dark Mother’s claim to be the mother of all monsters. I’ve read some of the other CoD books and there’s no evidence of a single unified origin. (Kind of like the Kithain in Changeling: the Dreaming who think all the other supernaturals are fallen Prodigals.)

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    What if the Dark Mother was originally an Insatiable who killed the Primogenitor and took his place as ruler of the Primordial Dream? And maybe she was the one who taught the Circle of the Crone how to use Cruac.

    Just a suggestion to the admins: when you Like someone’s post, it would be cool if they knew who Liked it.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    I need help in unsual Begotten - I prepare NPC from Byzantine Empire that belives it's Horror is reincarnation of Abrahamic Mother Mary. Best would be from Greek or Minor Asia cultures. Anyone have idea on mother mythological that would be appropiate? I'm not sure Echidna is good, as she clearly is pointed as only negative mother in Greek myths, so not working for this idea.
    Clear counter arguement:

    Why the fuck not just make the NPC claimed by Monstrous Mother Mary.

    Like, you don't need to fuck around "Like this thing but not this thing" when the whole of everything else after the figure's point of concern is Bloody Fucking Christianity and the Multitudes of Murder It Commits On It's Wake but Is Still Fucking Revered.

    Horrors are more Primordial than something like a Mother Fucking Mary type is. You want a goetia humping the line between Primordial and Bright, not some Horror.

    Short version: You want a Goetia Claimed, not a Beast, I am hella telling you.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    I need help in unsual Begotten - I prepare NPC from Byzantine Empire that belives it's Horror is reincarnation of Abrahamic Mother Mary. Best would be from Greek or Minor Asia cultures. Anyone have idea on mother mythological that would be appropiate? I'm not sure Echidna is good, as she clearly is pointed as only negative mother in Greek myths, so not working for this idea.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Most of it can be inferred from the nature of Beasts, knowledge about the Astral (primarily from Mage but BPG also touches upon it), and the realisation that Kinship can't be literal as it would negate the confirmed origins of some of the other splats. Especially werewolves whose origin had little to no cause for doubt in Werewolf (at least the broad strokes version) and was later confirmed and expanded upon in Dark Eras.
    Short dev confirmation can be found here.
    Even without the BPG further cementing the Dark Mother as an Astral entity it's really the most logical and likely explanation. Note that this doesn't actually limit how powerful she can be (compare with the Aeons who are gods of the Arcana while also being Astral entities), or explain why Beasts are created or in what other capacities she might differ from other Goetia.
    Last edited by Tessie; 05-06-2019, 06:25 AM.

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  • Penguinbowler
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    I'm sorry to say but she's kinda solved already.
    The Dark Mother is a god tier Astral entity. She's not literally the mother of all monsters, but she's that archetype in a realm where symbols manifest literally, meaning she would treat all monsters as her children whether it was true or not. That is most likely the reason Beasts can form kinship with other monsters; they're connected to the Astral and to the Dark Mother and thus treats Kinship as being true, so much that they can even gain mechanical benefits from it. Note that other monsters don't get automatic good first impressions with each other, or any ability to form Kinship.
    Ah that's bnpth sad and neat...

    was it from the players guide? Because i haven't read the players guide.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Penguinbowler View Post
    I have no ideas on what she could be, but i do think it should be a mystery that's never solved.
    I'm sorry to say but she's kinda solved already.
    The Dark Mother is a god tier Astral entity. She's not literally the mother of all monsters, but she's that archetype in a realm where symbols manifest literally, meaning she would treat all monsters as her children whether it was true or not. That is most likely the reason Beasts can form kinship with other monsters; they're connected to the Astral and to the Dark Mother and thus treats Kinship as being true, so much that they can even gain mechanical benefits from it. Note that other monsters don't get automatic good first impressions with each other, or any ability to form Kinship.
    Last edited by Tessie; 05-05-2019, 10:48 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tag

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