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  • #16
    Originally posted by Florin View Post
    A couple points. Encounters with Demons often in in violence, especially when a Beast sees through a Demon's Cover. That isn't necessarily because Beasts hate Demons. (I can't actually find a reference to hatred, just that they're not kin.) A Demon would be pretty likely to attempt to kill anything that penetrated its disguises. They're all about keeping hidden from the God Machine. Having someone detect them is going to disturb them, and violence is a likely response.

    One of the example lessons in the book is humility. You'd be very hard pressed to convince me that Humanity has learned humility. We're not perfect as a race, so I'm sure you can think of at least one other lesson we need to learn and haven't yet. Use that. More fun can happen when two different Beasts have opposing views on what Humanity should learn. For example, on Beast wants to teach humans to work together more and take care of each other while another Beast wants to teach them to be more independent and individualistic.
    I have no idea how I missed this. But you make some some really good points. My main issue is that the hostility seems to be initiated by the Beasts, Though this is conjecture based on their stereotype texts, which are all universally hostile. You are right that any Unchained will likely fight to kill a creature who can pierce Coverif said creature was trying to use that knowledge against them , but at the same time there is nothing that suggests that demons actively go out of their way to hunt down and kill Beasts for that reason. Violence does occur between the two groups... but this is the World/ Chronicles of Darkness- violence between splats is inevitable, at least on occasion. I find it odd and a little too manufactured ( hehe) for this attitude to be so prevalent.

    From what I can gather, their relationship isn’t like the Pure or Forsaken where they are just openly hostile at all times. True they are different and come from two VERY different creators.. but I dunno. The Beast/Demon relationship has always left a sour taste in my mouth I suppose... for a Splat so well adapted to intergrate and interface with other supernaturals to flat out reject a splat for being borne of a different “parent” burns me. Family isn’t just those who are connected by lineage after all. It is a very human thing to do though, so at least they are true to their nature I suppose.

    But thank you, I do see your point.

    As for the Lessons go, I can see that. At the same time, it seems that most Beasts want to simply rehash old lessons rather than teach new ones, but I do see the appeal of two Beasts getting into a sort of “ philosophical” tizzy in how to best terrorize/ teach the masses.
    Last edited by Korogra; 05-07-2018, 03:40 PM.

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    • #17
      Actually in the Player's Guide it was mentioned that Beasts do work together with Demons on occasions. They can't use their Kinship powers on them (probably because of the different parent thing you already mentioned, I don't really know much about the God Machine), but they don't have to be openly hostile.

      If you can grab that book, it expanded so much on the base setting, and presented it in a more reader-ready tone, I can only recommend it.

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      • #18
        As someone who was first interested - then discouraged by final corebook - and then impressed by Beast Player's Guide, I can point to those things that sell me to the Beast.

        1. It's about STORIES-STORIES! As mythologies buff, I love games about myths. And I like good horror. That's why Beast appeals to me more than Scion, for example. It's a game about living, breathing, scary stories - that can eat you alive! You ARE the stories your grandma told you. You are those things from horror movies you watched as kid. And you WILL wrote your own ending to them. How cool is that?! I started whole topic about using classical monsters from myths as new Horrors for Begotten. I prepare a fan Dark Eras about Pagan Poland and 15th century Geographical Explorations - and monsters there.

        2. It's about DREAMS! Yeah, those are nightmares of people, but good surreal setting is great setting to use.

        3. It's (mega) Crossover! You can have anything you like in it from CoD universe - and it should work! And Kinship is cool.

        4. It's about Family! As family man and loving life partner I appreciate stories on family relations and Mother's Love. Especially as your Mother is Echinda, Tiamat or Lilith...

        5. I can play a Dragon! At last!!!!
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-07-2018, 04:17 PM.


        My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
        LGBT+ in CoD games

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        • #19
          To give a better idea on beasts hate of demons is while they do have a horror based on xenophobia, there is still relatedness in there, it's just uncanny valley/odd behavior

          Demons are not even of the dark mother, they are not representative of the primordial human conscious they are instead rogue machines devoid of such emotions and human fear

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          • #20
            To be fair on the lesson front Beasts aren't necessarily picking a lesson to teach the masses. I mean yeah nothing stopping a ravager from doing a robbing spree in a neighborhood to teach the importance of proper home security, but there's also nothing wrong with deciding the egotistical POS of a boss at the company who is making everyone else's life suck is to be put into a camel clutch and made humble.* Also, just because its come up before, do remember that the lesson is not an inherent part of the Beast or the feeding, so its not like one is stuck having to always teach the same lesson.




            *Of course if the Beast is even going with lessons on that feeding. Sometimes you're just taking an opportunity to feed.

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            • #21
              The Begotten are uniquely positioned to face the worst the world has to offer. Their affinity with the Astral allows them to see mental scars of the local population. They are living monster detectors which, considering the lives of monsters, leads Beasts to face more horror and suffering. Seeking opportunities to feed and researching the local territory reveals even more problems that normal people face - poverty, corruption, crime, abuse, exploitation. What I'm getting at is that if you set your story in a bad enough place, PC's will encounter plot hooks on a daily basis. As a bonus, Beasts won't look that much worse in comparison. This sets the stage for a raw, cathartic experience, as the players overcome some of their challenges, but make others much worse.

              More than that, Beasts have their own lives (and Lives). They likely suffered from the same problems as the others did, and that may shape them as people even after their transformation. There's also the fact that as nightmares incarnate Beasts might even embody the local problems, which invites exploration of their Legends in relation to real world problems and their human lives. All of this is an opportunity to use the game as an outlet for negativity. You have an entire selection of crime movies to get inspiration from - from the Punisher to Breaking Bad. Of course, it's important to explore the consequences of their actions, so the end result is cathartic instead of juvenile. This gives players an opportunity to be villain protagonist heading towards a tragic end, or an even more tragic success.

              If the characters want to change things for the better, it's where a true tragic irony comes into place. As monsters, the Begotten have powers that allow them to come out on top, but those same powers are ill-suited towards fixing things. Overcoming subtle challenges may require anything from cunning to humility, but when you're a dragon everything looks flammable. Considering that you're playing flawed people on top of that, every game is an exercise in postponing disaster.

              To broaden options available to you, I'm also adding a link to a great bit of homebrew. It lists attitudes Beats can adopt towards their newfound state:

              Link


              ~

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                The apology is appreciated. To clarify, I didn’t mean that your use of the slur was insulting to people who liked the game. That was a separate issue from the general abrasiveness of the comment. And to further clarify, being abrasive isn’t against the rules per se, I was just recommending that you make sure you keep your critique respectful. There’s a big difference between “I find the voice Beast is written in unappealing” and “the writing is wallowing in its own smug juices,” for example. Again, you don’t have to like Beast, and you’re welcome to critique it, but maybe consider if someone said the same thing of game you do like, if you would describe that critique as respectful of your preferences.
                I completely understand. Having said that, I personally do not get offended if someone is abrasive, I find it to be more honest than simply stating that one dislikes something. If one feels strongly enough to use such language, they are probably being more truthful regarding whatever topic is being discussed in my experience. If it devolves into just spit and vinegar, then I start having problems; but usually I am perfectly fine with a bit more emotionally charged language.

                However I understand how some can be offended by it, so I apologize again haha.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                  To give a better idea on beasts hate of demons is while they do have a horror based on xenophobia, there is still relatedness in there, it's just uncanny valley/odd behavior

                  Demons are not even of the dark mother, they are not representative of the primordial human conscious they are instead rogue machines devoid of such emotions and human fear
                  I would like to point out that Demons can feel the full range of emotions that humans can so that’s not correct, but I do see where you are coming from.

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                  • #24
                    Only their covers can, the demon himself can't, and in fact fake a lot of their emotions in cover. If that sounds weird, basically when a demon "goes loud" they lose that emotional spectrum

                    Now whether this has an odd effect on the primordial dream, I have no idea

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Korogra View Post

                      I completely understand. Having said that, I personally do not get offended if someone is abrasive, I find it to be more honest than simply stating that one dislikes something. If one feels strongly enough to use such language, they are probably being more truthful regarding whatever topic is being discussed in my experience. If it devolves into just spit and vinegar, then I start having problems; but usually I am perfectly fine with a bit more emotionally charged language.

                      However I understand how some can be offended by it, so I apologize again haha.
                      Whether or not people take offense is not the issue. The forum rules don’t say “don’t offend other people,” they say, “respect other people/their preferences/the conversation.”


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                        Only their covers can, the demon himself can't, and in fact fake a lot of their emotions in cover. If that sounds weird, basically when a demon "goes loud" they lose that emotional spectrum

                        Now whether this has an odd effect on the primordial dream, I have no idea
                        More specifically, the Demonic Form does not experience the chemical reactions associated with said emotions, but they still can process emotion. They can still feel anger, amusement, fear, and so on; but they experience it non viscerally.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                          Only their covers can, the demon himself can't, and in fact fake a lot of their emotions in cover. If that sounds weird, basically when a demon "goes loud" they lose that emotional spectrum

                          Now whether this has an odd effect on the primordial dream, I have no idea
                          That is not true.

                          Demon's feel emotion fine, they can choose whether they show it though. There is no mention of them losing access to emotions in Demonic Form or when Going Loud.

                          Korogra Having one of the major aspects of the chronicles world NOT interact the same way as everything else helps reinforce the connection that all of the others have. It is the excpetion that proves the rule. The God-Machine and its related creatures make the most sense for this since it is all the most removed from the human experience. It's not about emotions, its about the fact that everything about Beast has to do with the Primordial Dream in the Temenos (the collective soul of Humanity) and the G-M does a great job of filling the spot where that is disconnected from humanity the most.


                          (he/him/his)


                          Backer #2010

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                          • #28
                            So have we hit a middle ground understanding here?

                            Also I thought it's said one they go loud, they are much more mechanical in their feelings, like angels are? To reiterate also, I meant they can legitimately feel emotion in cover, just when in actual form it becomes a lesser feeling.
                            Last edited by Primordial newcomer; 05-07-2018, 05:55 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                              Whether or not people take offense is not the issue. The forum rules don’t say “don’t offend other people,” they say, “respect other people/their preferences/the conversation.”
                              I believe we are in agreement. Offending someone is also being disrespectful to that person.
                              Last edited by Korogra; 05-07-2018, 05:56 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                                Also I thought it's said one they go loud, they are much more mechanical in their feelings, like angels are?

                                I don't remember reading that ever, you'll need to provide a page number and quote.


                                (he/him/his)


                                Backer #2010

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