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  • Maitrecorbo
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    I have to disagree with the idea of largely playing human stories. The thing that drew me to the World of Darkness series is the opportunity to play from the side of the monsters after decades of gaming had gotten me accustomed to playing things from the human perspective. And then I later found out that most of the monsters under control of the players are actually just misunderstood creatures and trying to mitigate the damage they cause.
    Its not about playing a human, its about playing a person. the concept here is you are more than race/class as to your identity. Being a vampire is just the bloody cherry (bitter sweet tho it is) on top.

    Also, its not because its 'forbidden' that your character wouldnt have a reason to do it and wouldnt try to get away with it.

    Also also, the cannibal barbeque thing (which my girlfriend proposed calling it a baby barbeque or babyque if you will, as it is both punnier and more horrible, sigh i love her so much) you can easily do that as a vampire. I'm seeing it as a texan american take on a macellarius kind of party. It just makes the character a low humanity vampire which is not only a valid character option but a very interesting one to play. I dont get how you feel you cant play a low humanity vampire (or low anything from the other splat really).

    As for Beast even if their satiety stat doesnt correlate to a morality scale, it doesnt mean that it doesnt generate ample struggle versus the character supernatural nature and the character as a person (not a human, a person). Which, by the way, is the same thing, humanity in vampire does. Albeit with a stronger theme of loss of control over yourself.

    As for the Beast players guide ... i really have to buy it at some point (with all the positive points i'm hearing about it). If only OPP would stop putting out kickstarters that eat at my ttrpg book budget :P.
    Last edited by Maitrecorbo; 05-09-2018, 11:40 PM.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    I have to disagree with the idea of largely playing human stories. The thing that drew me to the World of Darkness series is the opportunity to play from the side of the monsters after decades of gaming had gotten me accustomed to playing things from the human perspective. And then I later found out that most of the monsters under control of the players are actually just misunderstood creatures and trying to mitigate the damage they cause.

    I'm not saying that I want every game I join to be told from a villainous perspective, I'm merely saying that sometimes it's nice to have that kind of option. And Beast is the first book in the franchise that I personally came across which provided the option to do so.


    Also, just to clarify, my Werewolf and Vampire book are still first edition. I own first and second edition core, and I of course own Beast, which I assume is second edition. Currently waiting for the right time to drop money on the Beast Player's Guide.

    And in 1st edition werewolf, it explicitly states that eating human (and wolf) flesh is a forbidden among the Forsaken. It might be considered a sin against Harmony, I'm don't fully remember. So yes, while you can do it, you're not supposed to or else bad things happen.



    A literal murder orgy might be exactly the kind of thing that some monsters would be willing to organize with the help of their followers. Offering their masters human sacrifices while carrying out ancient pagan rituals. And from what I understand, the player's guide provides information on Beasts amassing their own cults!


    As for a cannibal barbeque not being a compelling story, you'd actually be surprised what some people are into role playing.

    What if you tried to spin it like a murder mystery, in which the Beast's player tries to pick off their guests in a systematic order without alerting the others until the last possible moment? Already, you've added some fun, intrigue and suspense to an otherwise grizzly tale about a man butchering an entire household!
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-09-2018, 10:57 PM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    What are these rewards, if you don't mind me asking.
    Nyr, when you haven't read a substantial amount of the books it generally helps to have this be a sincere starting point for your approach to the material instead of assuming that freeform roleplay is the ideal in all things relating to character psychology.

    Vampire gives you Beats for making Detachment rolls and succumbing to frenzy and includes an entire optional system of experience based on doing things like feeding beyond your capacity, solving problems with frenzy, making ghouls, creating revenants, and otherwise doing the kinds of things that narratively count as "exercising" the power in your blood.

    Werewolf literally gives you Essence for eating people and if you're Forsaken the act prompts you to roll twice in opposite directions; Iron Masters on a Sacred Hunt can set which Lunacy Condition humans take from them and one of the default Lunacy Conditions is "you have extra Essence in you that spirits can tap into through touch and werewolves can get by eating your flesh."

    Mage gives you Arcane Beats for Acts of Hubris and for following your Obsessions, and your Obsessions both make it harder to resist losing Wisdom and can be rewritten by Wisdom loss into megalomaniacal use of magic without restraint — the game is set up to make it really easy to just drive along the Dangerous Asshole Route for a while, and it also gives you Arcane Beats for letting the Abyss settle into your Pattern after containing a Paradox instead of letting it complicate your life personally.

    Promethean gives you Beats for falling to Torment and rolling for steps backward on the Pilgrimage; dramatic failure on the former makes the Tormented Condition get harder to resolve and generate Vitriol Beats (when you can voluntarily upgrade a failure on that roll like any other) and the dicepool for the latter gets smaller the higher your Pilgrimage rating is.

    Changeling lets you refill your entire Glamour pool without a roll by reaping mortals and the ensuing Clarity attack isn't even particularly risky if you target strangers. Making tokens is literally done by either taking the belongings of the Fae, putting items of personal significance to you in the worst part of the Hedge, or forging a lasting sympathetic conduit that makes you easier to find and magically affect.

    Hunter's most likely frame of play outright rewards you with Beats from Persistent Conditions for alienating normal people in the course of the Vigil, bumping up to alienating other hunters at the more extremist end of the scale.

    There's more of these things concentrated around Vampire and Mage because those two have societies that are fraught with risky power dynamics, because it is entirely too easy for them to fall into the habits of a monster consumed by their supernatural needs. Beast falls between this mode of existence and the sympathetic-allies-of-necessity angle of the other games, because a big part of Beast's dramatic toolbox is the interplay between how much you care about your family versus how much you care about your hunger.

    Because outside of Beast, the only interpretations I've been able to find regarding the other splats is "have some common decency, or you don't get to play this character!"
    "Common decency" here bottoming out at "please do not literally engage in a murder-orgy without a lot of preparation." There is a difference between having overly restrictive lines not to cross and having any lines at all.

    What if I don't want my character to have any decency? What if I want to play a full blown edge lord who invites the neighbors over for BBQ and then chops them up into steaks when they arrive an hour early? That's something that a Beast (likely a Predator) can pull off, without having to worry about losing their mind in the process.
    Again, "decency" here means "any sense of restraint at all." The game doesn't support you playing a cartoon character because the game is interested in human stories about people and the way they relate to each other.

    "I wanna do a massive cannibal barbeque" is not particularly compelling if it is something that is easy to do, and it very much is not easy to do — the time it takes you to build up the amount of public trust that will burn (or the suite of supernatural powers to bypass it) is time your Horror isn't getting fed on simpler fare that it is increasingly amenable to, and the circumstances in which that's a likely course of action are when you're a veritable Wicker Man of a Hero-beacon trying to turn it off or when you're actively fighting the inclinations of an overfed Horror to try and turn off your superpowers for the foreseeable future. It's a story beat that has very big implications and Beast doesn't make it less big just because getting to the point where you'd even consider it doesn't risk permanent loss of your character sheet.

    As you said, any character who goes around acting like a crazy degenerate probably isn't going to last for very long. But that's the point, they're drawing too much attention to themselves and somebody is going to have to put them down before they blow everyone's cover. There's not really a need to throw in some kind of metaphysical repercussions to it.
    The metaphysical repercussions to it are the matter of drawing attention to themselves. The monsters in the shadows are an open secret — everybody knows, in the abstract, that forces beyond the grasp of humanity exist in the Chronicles of Darkness. The veneer of normality is there for everyone's peace of mind.

    What Integrity stats do is enforce the inertia of a pattern of behavior —things you do often, especially thoughtless or destructive things, become easier to do again, and as it gets easier to do thoughtless and destructive things you become more thoughtless and destructive unless you are very careful. The rating is there to place what that means for a given kind of monster.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    It is a known truism of storytelling and RPGs that limitations help you create compelling characters. The game isn't forcing you to do anything just because a number goes down.

    Vampire and Mage's Integrity stats literally correspond to your character's sense of self-control and include built-in workarounds to excise particular bits of overt monstrous behavior from the list of things you have to worry about, Werewolf's contains no point along its spectrum where you don't have a fairly broad window of lucidity between berserk frenzies, Promethean's just plain stops moving up or down if you go full Hundred-Handed and never bottoms out anyway, and Changeling's is straight-up a health track that you recover by spending time on things you care about that gets less damaged by playing into your own agency.

    Satiety calls for you to walk a tightrope as much as any of the other stats do and you don't see many Beasts leaning hard into the baby-eating angle unless they're on the run, very confident in their own abilities, or really into being a cartoonish depiction of deplorable behavior whenever they're especially Ravenous.

    Literally all of these are supported by the games — there's reward mechanics built into them and everything.

    Carving out a stable point above the maw of oblivion takes effort, but this is not remotely the same thing as being doomed to lose your mind from acting like a monster — you just can't do that and also not care about anything and still expect the character to last any length of time, which is as fair a shake as you can really expect from a storytelling game about monsters who live among humans.

    What are these rewards, if you don't mind me asking. Because outside of Beast, the only interpretations I've been able to find regarding the other splats is "have some common decency, or you don't get to play this character!"

    What if I don't want my character to have any decency? What if I want to play a full blown edge lord who invites the neighbors over for BBQ and then chops them up into steaks when they arrive an hour early? That's something that a Beast (likely a Predator) can pull off, without having to worry about losing their mind in the process.


    I understand the reason why a mechanical system would be in place from the point of view of those who are new to role playing. But as somebody who's much more experienced in free form stuff, I think that from a story telling stand point, the morality system is much more compelling if you leave it up to the player's interpretation. It's more organic when a character's psychological development is influenced by the player's decision and story telling than if you just roll a bunch of dice and hope for the best.

    As you said, any character who goes around acting like a crazy degenerate probably isn't going to last for very long. But that's the point, they're drawing too much attention to themselves and somebody is going to have to put them down before they blow everyone's cover. There's not really a need to throw in some kind of metaphysical repercussions to it.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    And I would do so a lot more often, if the World of Darkness games didn't force you to adhere to a mechanically designed sense of morality.
    It is a known truism of storytelling and RPGs that limitations help you create compelling characters. The game isn't forcing you to do anything just because a number goes down.

    Vampire and Mage's Integrity stats literally correspond to your character's sense of self-control and include built-in workarounds to excise particular bits of overt monstrous behavior from the list of things you have to worry about, Werewolf's contains no point along its spectrum where you don't have a fairly broad window of lucidity between berserk frenzies, Promethean's just plain stops moving up or down if you go full Hundred-Handed and never bottoms out anyway, and Changeling's is straight-up a health track that you recover by spending time on things you care about that gets less damaged by playing into your own agency.

    Satiety calls for you to walk a tightrope as much as any of the other stats do and you don't see many Beasts leaning hard into the baby-eating angle unless they're on the run, very confident in their own abilities, or really into being a cartoonish depiction of deplorable behavior whenever they're especially Ravenous.

    Can't play a blood guzzling Vampire, man eating Werewolf, or power crazed Mage, without your character devolving into a mindless psychopath...
    Literally all of these are supported by the games — there's reward mechanics built into them and everything.

    Carving out a stable point above the maw of oblivion takes effort, but this is not remotely the same thing as being doomed to lose your mind from acting like a monster — you just can't do that and also not care about anything and still expect the character to last any length of time, which is as fair a shake as you can really expect from a storytelling game about monsters who live among humans.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    There are countless stories in which you play the hero / anti-hero trying to make the world a better place.


    Sometimes, it just feels good to play a straight up villain who doesn't care about trying to be human.


    And I would do so a lot more often, if the Chronicles of Darkness games didn't force you to adhere to a mechanically designed sense of morality.


    Can't play a blood guzzling Vampire, man eating Werewolf, or power crazed Mage, without your character devolving into a mindless psychopath...
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-09-2018, 07:09 PM.

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  • nalak42
    replied
    I will point out one other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. Beast is the crossover splat. Beasts have the potential to integrate with other splats with significantly more ease than a lot of other splats might.

    Others can probably explain it far better than I can,* but Beasts are able to integrate with other splats without a lot of the baggage that might come from say trying to explain how you get your Iron Master werewolf buddy into a meeting with the local kindred Prince. It is a way to help if you don't want to play a splat your friend wants to run, but are okay with them doing so.

    *My main two lines are Beast and Demon and those tend to get along like a house on fire thematically as well as mechanically.

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  • Korogra
    replied
    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
    The players guide does actually have a section on Beasts getting more philisophical on things like the nature of their hunger, why are there hunger distinctions inside of the same classifications*, . Mind the book doesn't cover answers, theories and the like that much since those are meant to be more of your character going into those and drawing their own conclusions.

    Being a decent person while being a Beast is a bit tricky at time depending on your Horror's dietary preferences. The ever easy one is that I'm fairly confident various parts of law enforcement are probably rife with nemeses Drill sergeant is probably a fun position for tyrant because you need to break the new recruits in for their own good.

    Mechanically its only a -1 penalty to feeding off of something that isn't your Horror's specific preferences. So I yeah my Ugallu whisperer really really wants to let it be known that the head of family company regularly hires prostitutes to act out his rather horribly inappropriate fetishes without his families notice, Instead we take the more difficult thing and let serial killer who's killing sprees have been making things harder for my kindred friends that if they don't stop it they would be so lucky as to be turned over to the police if they don't stop it.

    *You know why does one ravager horror prefer to feed off obliterating buildings and another revels in the destruction of reputations. That sort of thing.
    That’s pretty good actually, I wouldn’t mind trying something like that.

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  • nalak42
    replied
    The players guide does actually have a section on Beasts getting more philisophical on things like the nature of their hunger, why are there hunger distinctions inside of the same classifications*, . Mind the book doesn't cover answers, theories and the like that much since those are meant to be more of your character going into those and drawing their own conclusions.

    Being a decent person while being a Beast is a bit tricky at time depending on your Horror's dietary preferences. The ever easy one is that I'm fairly confident various parts of law enforcement are rife with nemeses. Drill sergeant is probably a fun position for tyrant because you need to break the new recruits in for their own good.

    Mechanically its only a -1 penalty to feeding off of something that isn't your Horror's specific preferences. So I yeah my Ugallu whisperer really really wants to let it be known that the head of family company regularly hires prostitutes to act out his rather horribly inappropriate fetishes without his families notice, Instead we take the more difficult thing and let serial killer who's killing sprees have been making things harder for my kindred friends that if they don't stop it they would be so lucky as to be turned over to the police if they don't stop it.

    *You know why does one ravager horror prefer to feed off obliterating buildings and another revels in the destruction of reputations. That sort of thing.
    Last edited by nalak42; 05-08-2018, 06:15 PM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Korogra View Post
    So I don’t think it’s incorrect at all to attribute a superiority complex as part why they are so incompatible alongside the metaphysical and thematic divide.
    It's a fundamentally ridiculous assertion to make about a facet of the relationship between Beasts and demons that exists because of a game mechanic triggered by a supernatural scrutiny power.

    How I feel about my place in the world has no bearing on the draining sensation and loss of privacy I feel when confronted with a rogue archon's unmoored selfhood or the flinch-response they experience when my Horror raises its hackles or the tense unfamiliarity the both of us get out of a momentary connection that falls just so.

    The difficulty of developing an equal relationship combined with their own separate concerns is not something that can be laid at the feet of some absurd supposition of universal egotism on the part of the Begotten from the mere fact that their monster-detector goes sideways trying to tie in a free agent.

    There is no one answer, and they all have equal merit.
    This is laughably untrue when the merit in question is demonstrating that you understand the material on a basic level.

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  • Korogra
    replied
    Originally posted by Paradim View Post


    If you keep insisting on holding to this interpretation of Beasts, then nothing anyone can say to otherwise will be something you'll listen to. How can you see the appeal of Beasts when you keep insisting that the people who do are wrong?
    When have I at one point said that people were wrong? When have I said that they are in the wrong for liking them? I have been shown some very reasonable arguments, and I see perfect validation. Having said that, I still have my own opinion on them. I’m not quite as willing to throw them under the bus after reading what some players I greatly respect ave had to say, though at least for now I’m still uncertain about whether I can play one. I apologize if you were offended by a previous post.
    Last edited by Korogra; 05-08-2018, 01:14 PM.

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  • Paradim
    replied
    Originally posted by Korogra View Post

    And you are right about that. However, being shallow is something that is integral to the nature of a Beast. They are depicted in the core as very petty, vain, and shallow for all their talk of understanding what it means to dream deep when it comes to their opinions of other monsters and their own hungers ( Seriously, a lot of the example Hunger characters are shown to be petty as all get out, not to mention kind of lazy and almost ridiculously metaphorical when it comes to how they interpreted how to fulfill said Hungers).

    The monsters they embody and the proverbial lessons they teach stem from such things, to illustrate the folly of being too prideful, avaricious, vengeful, etc - well at least in the past. So I don’t think it’s incorrect at all to attribute a superiority complex as part why they are so incompatible alongside the metaphysical and thematic divide. There is no one answer, and they all have equal merit.

    If you keep insisting on holding to this interpretation of Beasts, then nothing anyone can say to otherwise will be something you'll listen to. How can you see the appeal of Beasts when you keep insisting that the people who do are wrong?

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    I think the problem is definitely tone. If I ever get to play, I'm going to explore how someone raised with human morals mentally deals with inescapable urges to feed on human suffering thst bring dire consequences if disobeyed without trying to kill themselves. Focusing on the "inescapable" part. Beasts are not good people, but when being a good person can either starve you to death or bring down psychopaths on your head, few are going to have it in them to just let themselves die, even if it is the right thing to do from a starkly utilitarian perspective.

    The lessons are just one way Beasts justify to themselves their very human desire to live and thrive at all costs.

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  • Korogra
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    You seem to see all beasts this way, but it's simply not true. Beasts are widely varied in personality, the corebook may not to do a good job showing that, but they are not all the same thing at all
    That may be true, but that’s the problem. Now when I get paid I plan to get the player’s guide and hopefully that fixes the issues... but as of now I have difficulty in emphasizing with the characters due to the poor way they are portrayed. But from what people have said I’m a bit optimistic.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    You seem to see all beasts this way, but it's simply not true. Beasts are widely varied in personality, the corebook may not to do a good job showing that, but they are not all the same thing at all
    If the core book is all one has access to, that is where one forms their opinions. Examples in other materials have been listed (though if one is unimpressed with the line this far, spend money on supplements is less likely).

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