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  • Is this considered possible

    I've been thinking about the incarnate path, and is it plausible for it to play out like arch enemies? What I mean is what if a beast and hero were so intertwined, that they both NEEDED each other, where the story was now about them. The beast becomes an incarnate, and the hero becomes something more.

    Basically my inspiration for this idea is the classic arch enemies, you can't have one without the other. And preferably, if they had a final fight, both would go out in a blaze of glory

  • #2
    Well, the theme of the Player's Guide is "No Neat Little Boxes" and it specifically calls out that there could be more forms of Inheritance, so why not? I would say it would be a different form of Inheritance than Incarnation though.


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    • #3
      The whole point of incarnation is the complete subversion of the monomyth. So, nope. Besides, if the climax to it is virtual suicide, what is the point of considering an afterwards if there won't be one?

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      • #4
        I don't see why not.

        As a storyteller you use what you want to tell the best story. An inspiration could be the Matrix, technically Neo destroyed Smith on the first film, yet he returned as a fully realized and way more powerful Agent on the sequels as a Ying to Neo's Yang, the equation balanced itself.

        Maybe that's something you could try to implement for your Hero and Beast if that is the route you are taking.

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        • #5
          I've been thinking a lot about that kind of arch-nemesis-dynamic for a while, re: Beast. If I get a chance to work on the Storyteller Guide, I have a Hero rule hack I'd like to explore...
          Last edited by Yossarian; 06-25-2018, 02:43 PM.



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          • #6
            One possible way to make it work under the premise of the Incarnate Inheritance is having that as a special heroic development that might happen when a Beast triumphs over a hated nemesis.

            To throw out a quick, half-baked idea, the Beast becomes an Immortal Monster, but her enemy dies and becomes something that keeps coming back, a sort of "Heroic Horror" (not really, but it's to give the idea) that merges with others through the years, while possibly bringing powers, memories and knowledge along.

            Because the conflict between the two was so entertaining the monomyth just could not have enough, adapting to the circumstances and death of one of the sides.

            It can also work, if not abused, as something to use against normal Beasts, to be honest. A subtype of antagonist that's rare and nasty, Night Horrors style (and with some cool plot hooks behind)
            Last edited by Cinder; 06-25-2018, 03:08 PM.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
              Well, the theme of the Player's Guide is "No Neat Little Boxes" and it specifically calls out that there could be more forms of Inheritance, so why not? I would say it would be a different form of Inheritance than Incarnation though.
              Would it make sense to have it be like a sub-type of incarnation? Like both the beast and the hero are just stronger variants of there respective types, but when they are in a certain mile radius, they suddenly become super powered and instinctively know where each other is.

              Malus, i hope my above answer works out for you. Also the climatic last fight does not have to happen, it could end up with one triumphant over the other, but in the process losing what made them so powerful.

              Cinder, i can see that happening, sort of like how in Batman, the collective identity of robin is intertwined with two face. And that would be a cool enemy for regular beast

              Finally Yossarian. You work on chronicle of darkness books? Cool! Is it ok if can elaborate on the hero hack

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              • #8
                Possibly, certainly, but I'd also side with Malus that it should be another type of Inheritance. Incarnation is, after all, subversion of the monomyth, rejecting the common narrative, and substituting their own Myth.
                This, on the other hand, would be a narrative that says "Both are important, and neither can exist without the other, and yet they will have to kill each other".
                Maybe call it something like "Two Sides of the Coin", where the Hero gets a "Primordial Self", too, and the Horror and it have a unique relationship: The Slayer and the Monster's Offspring would be a quite traditional concept, as would be The Knight's Son and the Dragon. If you want to go a bit off the beaten path, it could be something like Classical Twins, or The Unwise Man and The Shadow He Called Forth.
                Or maybe the Hero takes up "The Mantle" of a certain heroic figure, like being the new Merlin, Arthur, Herakles, Beowulf etc.
                If you ask me, the idea of the two characters entering a deadly dance, drawing ever closer to each other, until they cannot but cancel each other out, is quite poetic. But, to do this poetry justice, and reach a bittersweet conclusion, you should not shy away from going through with actually killing them. No 'after the fight'. And no 'avoiding the fight'. Your story is driving right towards a palpable climax - make use of that. Exploit it for all it's worth.

                Why should a Beast chose this Inheritance? Maybe they don't believe in potentially eternal life as a Myth. Maybe they see this as preferabe to suicide, the Retreat, or all the other options. Maybe they want to fight a truly worthy opponent, and who could be more worthy than someone that will match your last breath?
                Maybe they want to go out in a blaze of glory, their last fight shaking the world in a way that immortalizes them in a different way. Maybe this is how you become an Archetype in the Dark Mother's Land.
                Maybe they didn't chose, it just happened to come to pass due to a close connection with a friend, lover, sibling, cousin, or parent?
                Maybe they didn't chose, the Hero subconsciously forced this narrative upon them? Maybe they accidently/purposefully forced this narrative on the Hero?
                Mabe A Wizard Did ItTM? Or it was just plain luck/bad luck that their Dragon met this St George. You might even go so far and make the Hero and the Beast having never met each other, but dreaming of each other, knowing they are 'destined' to do battle.
                The opportunities are endless. Just make sure your player is up for that.

                In any case, you should make it worth their while. Throw in some Incarnation abilities, but not all. Add some of your own ideas. Maybe even blur the lines between Hero and Beast here, and give the Beast access to Heroic abilities - while their Counterpart gets Access to Nightmare or Atavism-like abilities (Fluffed differently, of course, but I can see Vengeful Earth work excellently for a Merlin-like Hero, or Cyclopean Strength for a Herakles. Smashing Currenty and Unbreakable combined for the new King Arthur, but only when he has his 'Excalibur' unsheated etc.).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                  Finally Yossarian. You work on chronicle of darkness books? Cool! Is it ok if can elaborate on the hero hack
                  Several Chronicles of Darkness books, both published and yet-to-be.

                  I won't elaborate too much, because if it does end up in a book it would be subject to change/developer approval, but I'll say that I think an important story beat we didn't explore in the core, with Heroes, is the concept of hamartia, and how to defeat Beasts without just killing them.
                  Last edited by Yossarian; 06-25-2018, 04:54 PM.



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                  • #10
                    Thanks for answering, and especially keep up the good work. You and your peers contributions to the chronicles of darkness are greatly appreciated

                    Wormwood. Things such as it truly having a climatic end, really owning up to it, I actually have as an idea, along with your other (helpful, may I add) suggestions, i will elaborate later, because as of now i have work
                    Last edited by Primordial newcomer; 06-25-2018, 05:04 PM.

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                    • #11
                      A term I'd found years ago when I was reading D Grayman, Auginiste. Apparently it derives from an old clown duo style called Joey and Auguste. Sounds similar to what you're describing where the two are in competition for survival and yet still end up relying on eachother. Borrowing the words from the live journal the description was in,

                      Originally posted by sringangel
                      Simply put, the two clowns, who for whatever reason are competing for survival, desperately rely on each other; without each other, they live a meaningless, and perhaps even more perilous adventure.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                        Possibly, certainly, but I'd also side with Malus that it should be another type of Inheritance. Incarnation is, after all, subversion of the monomyth, rejecting the common narrative, and substituting their own Myth.
                        This, on the other hand, would be a narrative that says "Both are important, and neither can exist without the other, and yet they will have to kill each other".
                        Maybe call it something like "Two Sides of the Coin", where the Hero gets a "Primordial Self", too, and the Horror and it have a unique relationship: The Slayer and the Monster's Offspring would be a quite traditional concept, as would be The Knight's Son and the Dragon. If you want to go a bit off the beaten path, it could be something like Classical Twins, or The Unwise Man and The Shadow He Called Forth.
                        Or maybe the Hero takes up "The Mantle" of a certain heroic figure, like being the new Merlin, Arthur, Herakles, Beowulf etc.
                        If you ask me, the idea of the two characters entering a deadly dance, drawing ever closer to each other, until they cannot but cancel each other out, is quite poetic. But, to do this poetry justice, and reach a bittersweet conclusion, you should not shy away from going through with actually killing them. No 'after the fight'. And no 'avoiding the fight'. Your story is driving right towards a palpable climax - make use of that. Exploit it for all it's worth.

                        Why should a Beast chose this Inheritance? Maybe they don't believe in potentially eternal life as a Myth. Maybe they see this as preferabe to suicide, the Retreat, or all the other options. Maybe they want to fight a truly worthy opponent, and who could be more worthy than someone that will match your last breath?
                        Maybe they want to go out in a blaze of glory, their last fight shaking the world in a way that immortalizes them in a different way. Maybe this is how you become an Archetype in the Dark Mother's Land.
                        Maybe they didn't chose, it just happened to come to pass due to a close connection with a friend, lover, sibling, cousin, or parent?
                        Maybe they didn't chose, the Hero subconsciously forced this narrative upon them? Maybe they accidently/purposefully forced this narrative on the Hero?
                        Mabe A Wizard Did ItTM? Or it was just plain luck/bad luck that their Dragon met this St George. You might even go so far and make the Hero and the Beast having never met each other, but dreaming of each other, knowing they are 'destined' to do battle.
                        The opportunities are endless. Just make sure your player is up for that.

                        In any case, you should make it worth their while. Throw in some Incarnation abilities, but not all. Add some of your own ideas. Maybe even blur the lines between Hero and Beast here, and give the Beast access to Heroic abilities - while their Counterpart gets Access to Nightmare or Atavism-like abilities (Fluffed differently, of course, but I can see Vengeful Earth work excellently for a Merlin-like Hero, or Cyclopean Strength for a Herakles. Smashing Currenty and Unbreakable combined for the new King Arthur, but only when he has his 'Excalibur' unsheated etc.).

                        For added fun, have them as exes. Or, maybe not even - a truly epic love/hate dynamic going.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                          Possibly, certainly, but I'd also side with Malus that it should be another type of Inheritance. Incarnation is, after all, subversion of the monomyth, rejecting the common narrative, and substituting their own Myth.
                          This, on the other hand, would be a narrative that says "Both are important, and neither can exist without the other, and yet they will have to kill each other".
                          Maybe call it something like "Two Sides of the Coin", where the Hero gets a "Primordial Self", too, and the Horror and it have a unique relationship: The Slayer and the Monster's Offspring would be a quite traditional concept, as would be The Knight's Son and the Dragon. If you want to go a bit off the beaten path, it could be something like Classical Twins, or The Unwise Man and The Shadow He Called Forth.
                          Or maybe the Hero takes up "The Mantle" of a certain heroic figure, like being the new Merlin, Arthur, Herakles, Beowulf etc.
                          If you ask me, the idea of the two characters entering a deadly dance, drawing ever closer to each other, until they cannot but cancel each other out, is quite poetic. But, to do this poetry justice, and reach a bittersweet conclusion, you should not shy away from going through with actually killing them. No 'after the fight'. And no 'avoiding the fight'. Your story is driving right towards a palpable climax - make use of that. Exploit it for all it's worth.

                          Why should a Beast chose this Inheritance? Maybe they don't believe in potentially eternal life as a Myth. Maybe they see this as preferabe to suicide, the Retreat, or all the other options. Maybe they want to fight a truly worthy opponent, and who could be more worthy than someone that will match your last breath?
                          Maybe they want to go out in a blaze of glory, their last fight shaking the world in a way that immortalizes them in a different way. Maybe this is how you become an Archetype in the Dark Mother's Land.
                          Maybe they didn't chose, it just happened to come to pass due to a close connection with a friend, lover, sibling, cousin, or parent?
                          Maybe they didn't chose, the Hero subconsciously forced this narrative upon them? Maybe they accidently/purposefully forced this narrative on the Hero?
                          Mabe A Wizard Did ItTM? Or it was just plain luck/bad luck that their Dragon met this St George. You might even go so far and make the Hero and the Beast having never met each other, but dreaming of each other, knowing they are 'destined' to do battle.
                          The opportunities are endless. Just make sure your player is up for that.

                          In any case, you should make it worth their while. Throw in some Incarnation abilities, but not all. Add some of your own ideas. Maybe even blur the lines between Hero and Beast here, and give the Beast access to Heroic abilities - while their Counterpart gets Access to Nightmare or Atavism-like abilities (Fluffed differently, of course, but I can see Vengeful Earth work excellently for a Merlin-like Hero, or Cyclopean Strength for a Herakles. Smashing Currenty and Unbreakable combined for the new King Arthur, but only when he has his 'Excalibur' unsheated etc.).
                          Ok, so the first paragraph. The relationship can be of two complete oppsites every way, a la Batman and joker, as you said 2 sides of the same coin, or even be dark mirrors of each other (and which one representing the bad reflection, can be beast OR hero, which i will get into later)

                          Now the hero having a primordial self, I'll give you full credit for that, for I haven't even thought of it. I could totally see things such as the guile hero, who fights through cunning, or like Heracles, pure muscle, the hero anakim, if you will.

                          Now I agree that all your reasons for why they choose this inheritance (or forced into it). I also think they both should be at their strongest AND most vulnerable. Basically within a radius of each other, they get powered up, but as you said, BOTH can use anathema (which could explore how a hero would react to actually for once having things forced onto him)

                          Finally while yes, you CAN have one of each other win without themselves killed, i would encourage people to choose it as a climatic end to their chronicle with their beast. After so many fights (of the mind and the body) ending in small losses and wins, their final fight would immortalize them both, for beast and hero to be inspired for centuries to come (and mortals to be in fear of such rivalries)

                          Also yes Vent0, the rivalry can be between lovers, siblings, parent and child, best friends, or childhood enemies. This would bring in good story hooks too

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                            Possibly, certainly, but I'd also side with Malus that it should be another type of Inheritance. Incarnation is, after all, subversion of the monomyth, rejecting the common narrative, and substituting their own Myth.
                            This, on the other hand, would be a narrative that says "Both are important, and neither can exist without the other, and yet they will have to kill each other".
                            Sooooo basically exalting the status quo?

                            I wouldn't Inheritance an Arch-Nemesis relationship. I'd rather create incentives in a give-and-take relationship that emphasizes interfering with each other over killing each other. Make it akin to the Sworn Enemies Oath from Changeling, but involve the imposition/violation nature of Hero Gifts and such.
                            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 06-26-2018, 05:40 PM.


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                            • #15
                              Arcane the inheritance does not instantly mean they will fight to the death straight away. They will more than likely have many battles against each other that will gain fame. As for pretty much exalting the monomyth, just like how beast can gain cults, due to the nature of this sorta story mortals will subconsciously begin to be able to relate to the beast and may join him instead of hero, to represent the fact both are important and of the same prominence in the story

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