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How acts Dark Mother?

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic How acts Dark Mother?

    How acts Dark Mother?

    Some interesting mini-essey I found online, pointing to various monstrous females archetypes in our (pop)culture. They can lead to nice ideas for Dark Mother.

    '(...) It’s one thing to read about how women are attracted to the monstrous as a way to challenge social and sexual norms, but it’s another when you ask “where are the female monsters?”

    A quick Google search shows that female monsters are oftentimes evil and highly sexualized, while male monsters are allowed a modicum of sympathy for the most part, especially if they’re seen as romantic leads or as hero characters.

    Why are there so few sympathetic female monsters? Where is the Beauty and the Beast retelling where the prince is beautiful and the princess is beastly? Why, when there are female monsters, are they always portrayed as sexual deviants or just plain sexualized compared to their human female counterparts?

    Women, as we know, can only occupy a few roles in fiction. They can be children or maidens, chaste and pure. They can be mother figures, or crones. Or they can be evil, cruel beings, who usually display aggressive sexual behavior and must be punished for deviating from sexual norms. To ask for a female character who isn’t immediately attractive to men but who is a romantic interest, or for a monstrous female character who doesn’t have giant breasts and is also a heroic character? That might be beyond Hollywood’s comprehension.

    Female monsters, from lady vampires to sexy spirits, tend to be hypersexualized to an almost absurd degree. Take Dracula’s wives in any adaptation of the classic story but especially in the Francis Ford Coppola film. They’re always half-dressed and leer at Jonathan Harker, using their feminine wiles to turn him away from the pure, human Mina. Even Lucy, who has already pushing the boundaries of acceptable female behavior before her vampiric turn (and which is probably why she was chosen to be tortured by Dracula), becomes hypersexualized following her death and subsequent resurrection.

    The trend of the female monster began with Greek and Romand legend, where female monsters were either temptresses or vile beasts stripped of any sympathy. Consider the legend of Medusa, the original monster girl. She was turned into a Gorgon by Athena after the goddess witnessed her rape at the hands of Poseidon and was enraged that such an act happened in her own temple. This is not a warning gift to protect Medusa, but a punishment; the act of making her so hideous that her face would turn men to stone. What’s worse is that Perseus in Ovid’s retellings of the myth states that it was a well-earned punishment. Monstrous women are not allowed a modicum of sympathy, even with tragic backstories. (...)'

  • Konradleijon
    replied
    Dogs are creatures of pure Agape. And will love you no matter what you look like.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    So she should have just have found a dog?

    I don't remember the major details, but the story is she spent all her time brushing her hair and admiring herself in a reflective pool. One day, a hair fell from her head and landed in the water, to which a magic lady emerges and curses her as punishment for her obsession with her appearance.

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  • Konradleijon
    replied
    So she should have just have found a dog?

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    I bought a book all about draconic lore and it's got a few stories in it.

    One story features a woman who's vanity leads to her being cursed, as she is transformed into a hideous dragon.

    In order to break the curse and regain her lost beauty, she must find somebody who is capable loving her even in her monstrous state.
    Reminds me about Frozen movie -
    there also was 'true love in a place you did not assumed.'

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

    What’s the book called?

    The Book of the Dragon.

    By Ciruelo.

    Published by Union Square Press

    Leave a comment:


  • Konradleijon
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    I bought a book all about draconic lore and it's got a few stories in it.

    One story features a woman who's vanity leads to her being cursed, as she is transformed into a hideous dragon.

    In order to break the curse and regain her lost beauty, she must find somebody who is capable loving her even in her monstrous state.
    What’s the book called?

    Leave a comment:


  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    So a badass version of the frog prince?

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    I bought a book all about draconic lore and it's got a few stories in it.

    One story features a woman who's vanity leads to her being cursed, as she is transformed into a hideous dragon.

    In order to break the curse and regain her lost beauty, she must find somebody who is capable loving her even in her monstrous state.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konradleijon
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Maybe, though it says a great deal that a society doesn't differentiate the two. Victim blaming isn't exactly a new invention.
    Yay the ancient Greeks were pretty big Misogynyit’s

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Well, have you? I mean, I just disagreed with one of your points, but apparently that touched a nerve.
    Yeah sorry, shouldn't have lashed out at you or anybody else here. I apologize for the unwarranted aggression. I (well, we) get burned a lot these days.


    Again to the topic... we know that at least with the Uratha and their parent-gods, they don't really care on a species-level what gender/sex Wolf and Luna are. I wonder if there are Beasts who share similar views on the Dark Mother? Yes, the Dark Mother is basically the Mother-of-Monsters slash Earth-Mother archetype, but all this talk about Her apparent sexuality makes me wonder whether there are more unorthodox views on the issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    True, but we must be always careful when declaring all elements fall under one neat category, yes?
    My point is that it's not really relevant. The story still more or less supports the moral logic of honour killing, and Ovid definitely seems to.

    Or have I just defined myself as a mysogynist who perpetuates victim-blaming of women by daring to suggest that one case among a pile of many may not be so clear-cut?
    Well, have you? I mean, I just disagreed with one of your points, but apparently that touched a nerve.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Maybe, though it says a great deal that a society doesn't differentiate the two. Victim blaming isn't exactly a new invention.
    True, but we must be always careful when declaring all elements fall under one neat category, yes? Or have I just defined myself as a mysogynist who perpetuates victim-blaming of women by daring to suggest that one case among a pile of many may not be so clear-cut?

    Back to the topic: Maybe there's a high-powered Hero, or even a team of them, who heard about this Dark Mother figure the hated Beasts seem to worship, and in fighting this "religion of evil" are inadvertently strengthening the elements mentioned in the OP.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    Most of this is right... But on that particular example of Medusa; I’ve read somewhere (and I want to remember where) that “rape” in this case means “without consent of the woman’s legal protector” or something like that,
    Maybe, though it says a great deal that a society doesn't differentiate the two. Victim blaming isn't exactly a new invention.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Most of this is right... But on that particular example of Medusa; I’ve read somewhere (and I want to remember where) that “rape” in this case means “without consent of the woman’s legal protector” or something like that, which in that case was Athena herself. Or the lesser known stories where Athena has a thing for Poseidon and, well, woman or not imagine what a Greek god does to those who scorn them right in front of them. Sometimes those two are combined. There’s also how the older we go, the less human Medusa is, making her more a gargoyle guardian figure similar to Humbaba. The Victimized Woman interpretation is a recent development, a reconstruction... the twist being that “recent” is “several centuries,” so most people don’t know care. Nor care.

    Anyways, with the thread title, I get the feeling that you’re going for either a more sexualized form of the Dark Mother, or one that goes directly against the sexualization of women in mythology? The latter doesn’t really fit Her, since it’s too recent of an idea. The former... maybe, but considering how Horrors attain semi-sexual reproduction abilities from their human halves, I doubt their Mother is associated with (over-)sexualization of women in mythology.

    EDIT: But despite what I said, also considering how the Dark Mother is more approachable (in a certain way) than the other godly beings in the CofD, Her turning out to be literally a female figure might not be that out of place.
    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 07-21-2018, 06:35 AM.

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