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  • Strange family ties

    The core book says that Beasts are not related to the god machine and cannot put Family ties on demons (and probably on angels too) but i was thinking about other possible exeptions.
    In particular:
    -creatures of the lower deeps (es. Strix)
    -abyssal creatures (gulmoth and acamoth )
    -true fae

    What do you think?

  • #2
    Nothing in the rules say you can't (Fetches and Shadow spirits are called out as options from non-PC groups)... but there would seem to be some significant in-story hurdles to even trying. You don't just activate a power and put the Family Ties Condition on a target, it's something that has to be a mutual relationship, that comes from time and energy on both sides growing close to each other. Why would a Strix care about a Beast for the bond to form? How would beings like the Gentry or gulmoth spend enough time near the same Beast to form such a relationship? Etc,

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      Nothing in the rules say you can't (Fetches and Shadow spirits are called out as options from non-PC groups)... but there would seem to be some significant in-story hurdles to even trying. You don't just activate a power and put the Family Ties Condition on a target, it's something that has to be a mutual relationship, that comes from time and energy on both sides growing close to each other. Why would a Strix care about a Beast for the bond to form? How would beings like the Gentry or gulmoth spend enough time near the same Beast to form such a relationship? Etc,
      I thought it didn't necessarily need to be friendly interaction that can cause Family Ties? If so, that opens up more options.


      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
      Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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      • #4
        The relationship needs not be friendly (Rivals are mentioned explicitly in core), not even mutual- a Beast Stalking A Kindred (e.g. to watch them feed for family dinner) without the other noticing it may Well qualify For Family Ties.

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        • #5
          A demon could be willing to accept family ties but the Beast cannot impose it.
          My curiosity was about other creatures with a similar limitation.
          I suspect that the god machine summons angels from the lower depths, so i m wondering if the limitation could stem from this

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
            I suspect that the god machine summons angels from the lower depths, so i m wondering if the limitation could stem from this
            CofD is pretty clear that summoned angels either come from storage sites in the material, or are directly assembled by the GM to answer the summons.

            As for other beings, DaveB stated that Abyssal entities are also not kin to Beasts. I prefer to think that it has some exceptions.
            Entities in Lower Depths probably vary, depending on their origins. I'd say that Strix are Kin due to their ties with vampires, but infernal demons might not be, depending on what it is that really determines Kinship.

            Edit: Also, where does it say that Unchained can accept Family Ties? The core book says Beasts can't place Family Ties on a demon at all.
            Last edited by Tessie; 08-15-2018, 10:34 AM.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post

              Edit: Also, where does it say that Unchained can accept Family Ties? The core book says Beasts can't place Family Ties on a demon at all.
              I was talking about only the willingness to accept the ties.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
                A demon could be willing to accept family ties but the Beast cannot impose it.
                My curiosity was about other creatures with a similar limitation.
                I suspect that the god machine summons angels from the lower depths, so i m wondering if the limitation could stem from this

                Demons are the exact same thing as Angels, only with free will. They are created by the God Machine out of whatever parts it wants to use, mostly bio-mechanical type stuff. So, if a Demon is not of kin with Beasts, then neither are Angels.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                  CofD is pretty clear that summoned angels either come from storage sites in the material, or are directly assembled by the GM to answer the summons.
                  True, but i suspect that some of the resources used in the assemblage could come from the lower depth.
                  That is because there is an Exploit that state that reality register angels as "not native"

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                  • #10
                    Reality Enforcement on the core book is the Exploit, but on a second tought it could also indicate that angel are made of abyssal components

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                    • #11
                      The description of Reality Enforcement implies the opposite. "Unreal" and "impossible" are descriptors by humans that are ascribed to literally all supernatural beings. The sentence directly after it goes on and states that angels are "woven into the very fabric of reality and possibility".


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                        I thought it didn't necessarily need to be friendly interaction that can cause Family Ties?
                        It doesn't have to be friendly. I was trying to be concise, though I realize it came off that way in hindsight. My point is that for a lot of the stranger things out there that aren't explicitly ruled on in the books, there's enough of an opportunity issue as to make it not really something PCs are going to figure out, and might be left to STs for stranger NPCs to deal in.

                        Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                        The relationship needs not be friendly (Rivals are mentioned explicitly in core), not even mutual- a Beast Stalking A Kindred (e.g. to watch them feed for family dinner) without the other noticing it may Well qualify For Family Ties.
                        Erm, I'm going to have to disagree with the second part:

                        Originally posted by BtP Core, page 87
                        Even if the target is willing, the two still must spend considerable time together, endure common hardship, hunt together, or otherwise become close before this Condition can be applied.
                        ...
                        It is worth noting that the relationship does not have to be affectionate or even friendly for this Condition to apply; all it requires is that the Beast and the target be close. Associates, rivals, or even genial enemies thus potentially qualify for this condition as well, though it will likely be significantly harder to maintain more hostile connections.
                        That says to me it doesn't work on the example of a Beast staking a kindred without being noticed (at least to set the Condition in the first place, you could always do this to a vampire you have an established connection with as part of a non-friendly rivalry/etc.).

                        I can't see anyway to satisfy those passages from the book with a one-sided relationship.

                        Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
                        My curiosity was about other creatures with a similar limitation.
                        I suspect that the god machine summons angels from the lower depths, so i m wondering if the limitation could stem from this
                        So far Demons are the only ones explicitly called out, though the rationale makes it pretty clear that anything that's constructed by the GM like angels are out too. Stigmatics are a more interesting question on this (as they fall into the "mostly human but..." category, but their 'but' doesn't come from the Dark Mother).

                        I don't think the specific metaphysical origins of the building blocks is really the issue. Sin-Eaters, changelings, and mages all come from very different metaphysical parts of the CofD, but all qualify as kin. The developers clearly wanted an exception to the "Beasts are kin to all supernaturals," to seed some doubt into the game's setting, and picked, "stuff powered by the GM" as what causes this disconnect rather than what realm things are summoned from.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          So far Demons are the only ones explicitly called out, though the rationale makes it pretty clear that anything that's constructed by the GM like angels are out too. Stigmatics are a more interesting question on this (as they fall into the "mostly human but..." category, but their 'but' doesn't come from the Dark Mother).

                          I don't think the specific metaphysical origins of the building blocks is really the issue. Sin-Eaters, changelings, and mages all come from very different metaphysical parts of the CofD, but all qualify as kin. The developers clearly wanted an exception to the "Beasts are kin to all supernaturals," to seed some doubt into the game's setting, and picked, "stuff powered by the GM" as what causes this disconnect rather than what realm things are summoned from.
                          In relation to stigmatics, it's been noted that a Beast who goes through Erasure can't become a supernatural of any type...except for stigmatics.

                          Basically, if it's cause of the God-Machine, it's off limits.

                          Asides from sowing doubt in Beast's theories and preserving the espionage nature of Descent, it also just stems from the fact that the God-Machine is just apart from everything else. It's some kind of invader, or outsider, of a different category from any of the other things from outside reality. Chalk it up to divinity, or what have you.

                          Though it should also be noted that Dave Brookshaw has mentioned the idea that entitites from the Abyss also don't count as kin, so who knows.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                          • #14
                            Arcane, you did mean can't right? Sorta confused

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                            • #15
                              I respect Dave's statement and I know he's working on the BtP books (which there isn't a single person to go to right now AFAIK as "the" Beast developer), but I'd kinda want something like that to either be addressed more... I guess officially... before I take it as how things are supposed to be.

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