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[BPG] Athenaeum of the Dark Mother problem - No working Hungers with group?

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  • [BPG] Athenaeum of the Dark Mother problem - No working Hungers with group?

    Or are at least - no other than Hunger for Secrets. Athenaeum is great Primordial Dream item storage and library on the topics related to Dark Mother. Beasts with Hunger for Secrets are naturally inclined to this place, as they want to share their secret knowledge. Problem comes with choosing characters that are based on Horrors not inclined to Secrets looking. And, to be frank, in most of mythologies most creatures are not known from their dedications to uncovering Secrets.

    Looking on the idea of Athenaeum's Beast, I considered also Hunger for Hoard, but the problem is simple - Collectors want's treasures and trinkets of their victims for themselves and their own Lair, not in shared library.

    Other Hungers do not seems to me to work with basic premise of Athenaeum. Maybe you can show me were I make wrong assumptions there - and how to utilize other Hungers Beasts in idea?


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  • #2
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Or are at least - no other than Hunger for Secrets. Athenaeum is great Primordial Dream item storage and library on the topics related to Dark Mother. Beasts with Hunger for Secrets are naturally inclined to this place, as they want to share their secret knowledge. Problem comes with choosing characters that are based on Horrors not inclined to Secrets looking. And, to be frank, in most of mythologies most creatures are not known from their dedications to uncovering Secrets.

    Looking on the idea of Athenaeum's Beast, I considered also Hunger for Hoard, but the problem is simple - Collectors want's treasures and trinkets of their victims for themselves and their own Lair, not in shared library.

    Other Hungers do not seems to me to work with basic premise of Athenaeum. Maybe you can show me were I make wrong assumptions there - and how to utilize other Hungers Beasts in idea?
    First Broken Premise: That Beasts are solely motivated by their Hungers. They are not, a Tyrant can be as interested in the secrets of the Dark Mother as a Whisper.

    Second Broken Premise: That Collectors can't buy into the Athaneum as a Curator of a Chamber connected to the Athaneum. Just because's a group effort doesn't mean there isn't some jockeying for position, and contributing meaningful space to the Athaneum is a good grounds for the inevitable claiming of curatorship over the current holder over the course of long years of politicking for the position. Also see the First Broken Premise-not every Collector is going to feel like they have to own the Athaneum, or even feel like they have to.

    Third Broken Premise: That Whispers are not present a lot in mythology-any time you have an entity who reveals something about the Character counts, and certainly even specific examples are scant, that fear exists and permeates other entities that embody multiple fears, enough so that some mild shifting of focus makes it easy.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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    • #3
      I think the idea is the athaeneum is like those monster lairs filled with knowledge, whether it came from fallen heroes (tyrant) or sneaks (collectors)

      Perhaps the athaeneum is not as professional as it seems. There could be tons of inter rivalry

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      • #4
        Also nothing saying there aren't records for who acquired what knowledge, and I could see that being useful for tyrants or collectors since they could use those attributions for their trophies or to rub their superiority into the faces of rivals. Followed by nemesis beasts and ravagers who go over the things with a fine toothed comb to ensure no one is knowingly contributing forgeries and falsified information, and relics to the collection while presenting it as genuine to be able to feed off those who violate the rules. A variety can also be involved in security, but these are just for those Beasts using the Athaeneum as a means of feeding or integrating the collection into the eating habits and not like Arcana suggests of having this be something the Beghotten does separate from their hunger.

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        • #5
          Also remember the athaeneum is a HUGE source of knowledge considering mages raided it. A beast may join purely on the fact there is knowledge that will help them with whatever they need

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
            Also nothing saying there aren't records for who acquired what knowledge, and I could see that being useful for tyrants or collectors since they could use those attributions for their trophies or to rub their superiority into the faces of rivals.
            I have a hard time imaging beast with Horror that in myths is all about controlling people whole lives - like forcing humans to marrige and running their lives - i.e. Hunger for Power - that then is joining then Athaeneum only to argue with other beasts about trophies and records. It does not seems appropriate...

            Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
            Followed by nemesis beasts and ravagers who go over the things with a fine toothed comb to ensure no one is knowingly contributing forgeries and falsified information, and relics to the collection while presenting it as genuine to be able to feed off those who violate the rules.
            I can see one book related Nemesis that looks over 'Have you returned the book to the library'. However, I really do not see Ravangers in Athaeneum community...

            Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
            A variety can also be involved in security, but these are just for those Beasts using the Athaeneum as a means of feeding or integrating the collection into the eating habits
            So 'I join Library because I like to take sandwiches and eat near the books'?

            Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
            having this be something the Begotten does separate from their hunger.
            Can Begotten really go or join into something so important against Hunger of their Horror? Should not Hunger move their whole life, from Devouring gone on?
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-18-2018, 05:22 PM.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post



              Can Begotten really go or join into something so important against Hunger of their Horror? Should not Hunger move their whole life, from Devouring gone on?
              No. That's dumb.

              Hunger is a obviously a big motivator, but your Life and Legend are not solely defined by it. You have a world outside of your stomach, and you have thoughts and interests beyond satisfying it. Your Hunger might color your motivations, but at the end of the day it's primarily a motivation when you have nothing else to do.

              Much like the drives of any other character.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
              Currently Working On: The Noble and the Sovereign, Blog

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              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                I have a hard time imaging beast with Horror that in myths is all about controlling people whole lives - like forcing humans to marrige and running their lives - i.e. Hunger for Power - that then is joining then Athaeneum only to argue with other beasts about trophies and records. It does not seems appropriate...
                Tyrants are also a hunger for domination, a hunger to be seen as superior. A lot of academia and research can be done under the guise of acquiring knowledge and information for the betterment and ignoring that a not insignificant amount of drive is towards being able to tell a colleague that they're wrong or that you were able to figure a thing out faster ergo your own superiority, or even being able to force others to capitulate because of assets or information the tyrant possess that the others might have need of.

                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                I can see one book related Nemesis that looks over 'Have you returned the book to the library'. However, I really do not see Ravangers in Athaeneum community...
                You missed the part where I explicitly mentioned the how and why.
                go over the things with a fine toothed comb to ensure no one is knowingly contributing forgeries and falsified information, and relics to the collection while presenting it as genuine to be able to feed off those who violate the rules.
                Cause you know taking someone who tried to gain some form of accolades, or reputation via a forgery wouldn't be in a bad spot if they were revealed as a fraud. Not to mention that there's an entire subsection that feed of making people suffer for violations of rules. Nothing stopping a ravager from just releasing the information into the wild and letting the hungry nemeses and predators go after the person who's aware that their safety, security and health has probably just been shredded.

                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                So 'I join Library because I like to take sandwiches and eat near the books'?
                The concept of security at a museum, library, or research facility confuses you?


                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                Can Begotten really go or join into something so important against Hunger of their Horror? Should not Hunger move their whole life, from Devouring gone on?
                Eat to live, don't live to eat. Plus it isn't like this is antithical to anyone's Hunger I listed options for how one might use the library as a means to feed your Hunger (I've been to libraries with excellent cafes) even if this isn't just a thing you do when you aren't concerned about feeding.

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                • #9
                  Remember beast are not slave to their horrors, they are still their own people. One of the conflicts many beast have is reconciling their two natures anyway.

                  And once again, remember it's a library made up of many lairs, eldritch locations filled with monsters. I bet it's not as clean and civil as it seems

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                  • #10
                    nalak42, thank you for your post - it was really eye-opening for me on Beast: The Primodial concepts!

                    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                    Eat to live, don't live to eat. Plus it isn't like this is antithical to anyone's Hunger I listed options for how one might use the library as a means to feed your Hunger (I've been to libraries with excellent cafes) even if this isn't just a thing you do when you aren't concerned about feeding.
                    'Playable' Beast conciensly, constantly fighting with their Horrors Hunger? Fascinating idea, really. Are they like... often in general Begotten population?

                    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                    Tyrants are also a hunger for domination, a hunger to be seen as superior. A lot of academia and research can be done under the guise of acquiring knowledge and information for the betterment and ignoring that a not insignificant amount of drive is towards being able to tell a colleague that they're wrong or that you were able to figure a thing out faster ergo your own superiority, or even being able to force others to capitulate because of assets or information the tyrant possess that the others might have need of.
                    Okay, I can see this now as working for Hunger of Power - to really put 'I'm right, in your face' attitude. And, hell, 'grant races' would also be fight for Power in Athaeneum community.

                    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                    Cause you know taking someone who tried to gain some form of accolades, or reputation via a forgery wouldn't be in a bad spot if they were revealed as a fraud. Not to mention that there's an entire subsection that feed of making people suffer for violations of rules. Nothing stopping a ravager from just releasing the information into the wild and letting the hungry nemeses and predators go after the person who's aware that their safety, security and health has probably just been shredded.
                    Ravagers with Hunger for Ruin as 'wicked tricksters' characters?! It's eye-opening for me! At last I can have not only 'I will destroy half of town' Ravagers! Thank you, for this. I will make evil fairies and Loki-like characters Ravagers from now on. I'm really glad for this idea!

                    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                    The concept of security at a museum, library, or research facility confuses you?
                    Right, Nemesis with Hunger for Punishment can really work as security of Athaeneum.,


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                    • #11
                      Maybe I will show with what I have problem on NPCs writing for Athaeneum in direct example. I'm preparing BtP setting for Edinburgh, capitol of Scotland. As such, I dive deep in Scottish myths and legends. I want to represent each of Seekers of Dark Mother communities as local broods, so I was pondering on the Athaeneum one. I looked into local folklore creatures, but I cannot find any being dedicated for direct looking for secrets or knowledge. Closest I came is race of sorcerous shapeshifters - but they still sound more as looking on power over humans, controlling their lives - than in to secret knowledge or academia.

                      Finfolk - Are sorcerous shapeshifters of the sea, the dark mysterious race from Finfolkaheem who regularly make an amphibious journey from the depths of the Finfolk ocean home to the Orkney Islands. They wade, swim or sometimes row upon the Orkney shores in the spring and summer months, searching for human captives. The Finfolk (both Finman and Finwife) kidnap unsuspecting fishermen, or frolicking youth, near the shore and force them into lifelong servitude as a spouse.Unlike the "Selkie", the Finfolk are neither romantic nor friendly. Instead of courting the prospective spouse, Finfolk simply abduct them. Regarded as territorial and greedy, the Finfolk, in addition to their lust for humans, have a weakness for silver and things made of silver metal, such as coins and jewelry. According to legend a possible way to escape abduction is to exploit this Finfolk weakness by tossing silver coins away from oneself. The motivation for the amphibious abductions are inspired, in part, because marriage to a human is preferred over other Finfolk.

                      To capture the unsuspecting human bride or groom, the Orkney Finfolk cunningly disguise themselves and their fins as other sea animals, plants or even as floating clothes. The Finfolk kidnapping attempt begins by approaching the prospective mate cautiously, floating ever closer, until it is possible to leap up and grab the victim. The Finmen often use another tactic, appearing in human form disguised as fishermen in a row boat, or a fishing boat propelled by oars. The Finwife prefers a more natural form, and often appears as a mermaid with long, flowing golden hair, snow white skin, incredible beauty, and, sometimes, a long fish tail. In some stories, she has a beautiful voice like that of the Greek Sirens.

                      Family:Makara / Talassii?
                      Hunger: Power / Secrets?

                      I may solve the problem of dual Family and Hunger pointing by using siblings NPCs, brother and sister.

                      I think that Finfolk could work for Athaeneum, but have inner resist for using them...


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        Right, Nemesis with Hunger for Punishment can really work as security of Athaeneum.,
                        Why won't you even consider that wanting and maintaining an Athenaeum can be unrelated to a Beast's Hunger? All Beasts have their own personal interests completely unrelated to their Hunger. It would be a sad existence if a Beast was reduced to only be able to act on their appetite rather than being complete and complex individuals with multiple desires.


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                        • #13
                          Tessie, yup, and the exact reason the insatiable (the human part) is so selfish and evil

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                          • #14
                            Follow me here:

                            Vampires can do things other than continually seek out blood.
                            Werewolves have more shit to do than Sacred Hunts.
                            Mages aren't always running down Mysteries.
                            Prometheans don't always have to make the interactions with everything a matter of personal significance as regards their Pilgramage.
                            Changelings sometimes just enjoy life and do so in ways that are not an active means to hide from Huntsmen and True Fae.
                            Hunters don't spend every night diving into the darkness to learn secrets or chop off heads.
                            Sin-Eaters have more of life to live than simply that which resolves their Burdens or their Geist's Rememebrances.
                            Mummies can have ambitions for projects beyond enacting the punishment of their Judges or needs of their cult.
                            Demons pursue projects outside of Dealing With The God-Machine and Wheeling In the Covers.
                            And Beasts really are not solely their Hungers.

                            All of these things are important answers to "What do I do" for people who have trouble coming up with their own goals and do much to describe the mainstay activity of each of them. Some of them are more scene worthy than others-certainly a Mummy chronicle will resolve more around their First and Final Purposes than it will their work to read all of the works of William Shakespeare-and of course the type of characters chosen should relate to the game players want to play-a Beast player wanting to become the sole sovereign over a city is better served playing a Tyrant than a Ravager-but none of that means that these baselines need to or should dominant the whole of the game, or even the majority of it, if it works for the gameplay of the table.

                            You can run an entire game built around PC's doing things other than their mainstay activities. A Mage exploring Mysteries can totally have that be the background of their lives while the actual game deals with them handling their mundane lives or having adventures unrelated to Mysteries, as an example.

                            Characters in games are complex whole people with a wide variety of tastes, interests, inclinations, and directions outside of their templates and archetypes. Certainly those templates and archetypes play a strong throughline in how they come accross, but just because you're playing a an unholy abombination in the sight of god and man doesn't mean that you can't also play matchmaker between people you think look cute together.

                            TL;DR, your characters are more than their Templates, X-Splats, and Y-Splats, and trying to treat them as such makes stupid problems, robs you of creative possibilities in your stories, and reduces all characters to two-dimensional cardboard cutouts. These are spines, not the whole of your characters.
                            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 09-19-2018, 04:56 PM.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                            Currently Working On: The Noble and the Sovereign, Blog

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                            • #15
                              As an aside, hopefully without raising too much of a fuss, to see why the attitude is a problem, check out the "V5 Sour Grapes" Thread over in the Masquerade forums to see how a game over-emphasizing it's mainstay activity (Hunger, in that case) can actually form an impediment to fuller stories being told-at least, if you happen to agree with the people who feel that way(even if you don't, it's worth seeing how the arguments along those lines factors into this conversation)

                              PS: Also, let's not take this as an invite to extend that conversation in here, I'm using those arguments as an illustrative point alone, whether you agree with them or not, for the purposes of countering the pre-conceived notion here.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                              Currently Working On: The Noble and the Sovereign, Blog

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