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  • Beast: the Monomyth

    Beast: the Monomyth

    A Storytelling Game of Vicious Cycles



    I simply can't play Beast: the Primordial, but I want to. I love the core ideas, it's just the execution I had personal problems with. So, I’ve decided to take the concept in a very different direction in Beast: the Monomyth (which, alongside Beast: the Primordial, will be referred to by their subtitles from here on).

    Monomyth is less of a homebrew and more of a complete overhaul. Nearly everything has been changed. The only thing it has in common with Primordial is the core concepts and some other bits here and there. Monomyth is not meant to replace Primordial for those that enjoy it, you still have your game. Monomyth is for those who’re dissatisfied with Primordial but still like the core concepts. This is my attempt at changing Primordial to suit me and those like me (though you’re certainly welcome to enjoy this along with Primordial).

    Update Log
    27-1-19
    • Renamed Amaroka to Nyarlathoteps.
    • Added singular forms to Breed names that aren't obvious.
    24-1-19
    • Changed up the Overview's wording so that it didn't compare itself to Primordial (only mentioning it when it matches Primordial from now on).
    • Renamed Themes to Motifs so they wouldn't be confused with the game's major themes.
    • Replaced the Ogbanje Breed with Shakpana because Shakpana had more relevance as a monster type.
    • Added Breed nicknames in italics within their descriptions.
    • Replaced the Torture Motif with Blight.
    • Added the Falsity Motif.
    • Replaced the Light Motif with the Lore and Revelation Motifs and removed the Euthanasia and Bounty Motifs.
    • Added the Justice Motif.
    • Added lists for the Leitmotifs of Breeds, Creeds, and Foils.
    • Renamed Insatiables to Archetypes (Archetypes makes more sense for Conformity 10 Beasts, as well as being less confronting to Primordial)
    11-1-19
    • Changed the introduction to better convey why I'm making Monomyth
    • Myth is no longer an Integrity analogue. Instead, Beasts and Heroes have Conformity.
    • Renamed Maledictions to Mala
    • Added basic descriptions of the game's major themes.
    • Corrected my mistake about Primordial Heroes requiring low Integrity.


    Overview
    Themes

    The Monomyth

    Both Beasts and Heroes are tied to a mysterious phenomenon called the Monomyth. While it is unknown what the Monomyth is exactly, what is known is how it influences Beasts and Heroes alike. It’s like a metaphysical script that tries to force them into a series of vicious cycles; dooming them to glorious but tragic fates. That doesn't have to be their story, however.

    Subversion

    The Monomyth commands Beasts to die and Heroes to slay them. Naturally, most Beasts don't appreciate that, so they do everything they can to defy and/or escape it. Beasts may be monsters, but that doesn't mean make them evil or worthy of death because of what the universe tells them.

    Family

    Beast aren't human. They were never human. In fact, humans look tasty to them now. Regardless, they still lived human lives and are (typically) genuinely close to their human friends and family. In addition, they often find fellow Beasts who share their plight and other supernaturals who have different but similar stories. When the world deems you nothing more than a scourge to be eradicated, all Beast have is their family.

    Beasts

    Beasts aren’t and never were human, nor do they have a human-monster duality. They are pure monster with a human form known as their Guise. Their true monstrous form is known as their Id. From the perspective of the World of Darkness at large, they are a type of ephemeral entity.

    Dormancy & Emergence

    Beasts are born Dormant, meaning they begin life believing they are fully human, develop a human mentality, and build a human social life, but were just a little bit different from the rest. Once a Beast Emerges, they realize what they truly are. While everything makes sense now they know of they were never human to begin with, it’s often not a well-received revelation.

    X-Axis - Breeds

    Beasts are nightmares incarnate. While there are innumerable individual nightmares, broad patterns have naturally emerged. Groups of nightmares based on the same broad fears. Breeds have formed from these broad fears that plague humanity.
    • Aunshéghlien: Nightmares of the unfamiliar. Chaotic Tricksters contorting human minds into utter insanity. (Singular Aunshégh)
    • Cipactli: Nightmares of predation. Savage Prowlers mercilessly hunting their furless prey. (Singular Cipac)
    • Malakim: Nightmares of despair. Unconquerable Calamities relentlessly laying humanity's works to waste. (Singular Malak)
    • Mara: Nightmares of vice. Mirrors reflecting humanity's inner darkness.
    • Nyarlahoteps: Nightmares of the unknown. Faceless, incomprehensible Lurkers dwelling in the darkness just beyond humanity's torchlights.
    • Shakpana: Nightmares of malady. Revolting Plagues corrupting humanity with disease and madness.
    • Turéhu: Nightmares of Deprivation. Ravagers taking everything humanity holds dear.
    This is by no means an exhaustive list. There's always room for additional Breeds. Same goes for Creeds and Motifs (as well as Foils, but new Foils come with new Breeds anyways).

    Y-Axis - Creeds

    The Y-axis. Beasts have loose social factions called Creeds; general philosophies for how they manage their feeding.
    • Adversaries: Feeding to build people up. They utilize the fear and suffering they cause so their victims can grow from it.
    • Dramaturges: Feeding a different way. They explore the World of Darkness to find different means of feeding. The crossover-friendly Creed.
    • Gargoyles: Feeding on those that would harm their Family. Family is determined by the individual Gargoyle.
    • Nemeses: Feeding on the guilty, both human and inhuman. The Dexter/Hellboy Creed.
    • Usurpers: Feeding on Heroes to reverse the Monomyth.
    Fiends
    Fiends are Beasts belonging to antagonistic Creeds.
    • Devils: Feeding the Monomyth. They view the Monomyth as their true calling in life.
    • Kinslayers: Feeding on Family. They hunt down all monsters to feed because they deem all monsters as evil.
    • Scourges: Feeding their Hunger. They believe it isn’t wrong for them to feed, it's only natural.
    Power Stat - Myth

    Myth is a Beast's story, the tale they tell with their actions. Since Beasts are creatures of human thought, they can be shaped by thought. By weaving an elaborate narrative through haunting humanity's collective soul, they give their Myth, and by extension themselves, power.

    Integrity Analogue - Conformity

    Conformity represents a Beast's attunement to the Monomyth. They risk increasing it when they commit Rising Acts, which are actions befitting what the Monomyth says they should do. They can decrease it down to 0 dots by spending Experiences. Beasts start with 3 dots of Conformity at character creation, and become Storyteller characters at 10 dots, as they are consumed by the Monomyth.

    Powers

    Motifs

    Motifs represent the particular fears a Beast embodies and feed from. They also form the prerequisites for their powers. The Motifs are:
    • Blight: Fear of disease and pestilence
    • Chaos: Fear of order and/or reality breaking.
    • Darkness: Fear of the unknown, including sensory deprivation.
    • Destruction: Fear of wreckage and disaster.
    • Deviance: Fear of the uncanny.
    • Falsity: Fear of evil in hiding.
    • Futility: Fear of hopelessness.
    • Imprisonment: Fear of containment and limitation in all ways.
    • Isolation: Fear of loneliness.
    • Loss: Fear of losing one’s valuables.
    • Madness: Fear of insanity.
    • Mutilation: Fear of being mauled.
    • Paranoia: Fear of being hunted, not necessarily by a predator.
    • Retribution: Fear of facing the consequences for one's sins.
    • Shame: Fear of facing one’s sins and regrets.
    Leitmotifs
    Each Breed has Motifs that come more easily to them than the others, their Leitmotifs. Beasts spend less Experiences buying Leitmotif dots than for other Motifs. Each Breed also has a Central Leitmotif, which a Beast automatically gains a dot in during character creation. Each Creed also has a Leitmotif, which also grants an automatic dot during character creation. Below is a list of each Breed and Creed's Leitmotifs. Central Leitmotifs are in italics.
    • Aunshéghlien: Chaos, Deviance, Madness
    • Cipactli: Paranoia, Imprisonment, Mutilation
    • Malakim: Futility, Destruction, Retribution
    • Mara: Shame, Falsity, Retribution
    • Nyarlathoteps: Darkness, Falsity, Isolation
    • Shakpana: Blight, Madness, Mutilation
    • Turéhu: Loss, Destruction, Isolation
    • Adversaries: Imprisonment
    • Dramaturges: Deviance
    • Gargoyles: Destruction
    • Nemeses: Retribution
    • Usurpers: Isolation
    • Devils: Falsity
    • Kinslayers: Madness
    • Scourges: Mutilation
    Atavisms & Mala

    Atavisms represent the bodily traits of a Beast’s Id, such as claws and tentacles. For all other types of powers, Beasts have Mala (singular Malum). Both Atavisms and Mala have a Guised/Manifested dynamic representing how obviously and powerfully they're used. If they Manifest an Atavism or Malum in front of any Commoner witnesses, they may risk a Cry (see "Weaknesses" below).

    Lair & Elements

    Lairs generally work the same way as in Primordial. Lair Traits have been renamed Elements. Other than that and their Theme prerequisites, nothing else about them has changed.

    Fuel - Distress

    Distress is the fear and suffering in the form of energy that nourishes Beasts. It automatically depletes as they hunger and they can spend it to evoke Atavisms, Elements, and Mala, but they can replenish it by feeding.

    Waypoints

    Demur & Urge

    Demur represents how the Beast acts against the Monomyth; Urge represents the monstrous aspect they tend cave in to. Much like other supernatural Waypoints, they can regain either a single point or all their spent Willpower through them.

    Touchstones

    Beasts have two types of Touchstones: Family and Humanity. Family Touchstones are the supernaturals (Beasts and Cousins alike) important to them, whereas Humanity Touchstones are the Commoner (or Relative) equivalent.

    Weaknesses

    Hunger

    Beasts automatically consume an amount of Distress based on their Myth dots at intervals based on their Conformity dots. More Myth dots means more Distress consumed and more Conformity dots means shorter intervals.

    Bans & Bane

    As a Beast's Myth grows in potency, it also grows in complexity. Their Myth gains more nuance and caveats, some of which come in the form of Bans. Each Beast has one particular weakness, their Bane, but it becomes more deadly as they rise in Conformity.

    Crying & Signs

    If a Beast hastily/harshly feeds on a Commoner, Manifests their powers in front of them, or otherwise displays their inner Beastly nature, they risk producing Signs and causing Commoners to Cry. Cries are basically Hero beacons. Signs are a Beast's taint on places that are invisible except to Heroes and others that have an ability to sense them.

    Incitement

    The Monomyth prods at Beasts with Inciting Conditions, which cause them to act more obvious and monstrous.

    Heroes

    Where Beasts prowl, Heroes rise in their wake. When certain Commoners are severely traumatized by a Beast's activities, the Monomyth presents them with an option: slay the Beast who harmed you so. Heroes are both Beasts' greatest enemies and greatest shame.

    Calling, Trial, & Forging

    Commoners who fulfill the below criteria:
    • They have five or more Willpower dots
    • Suffer an Integrity breaking point with a total penalty of -3 or greater from a Beast's activities (whether they lose Integrity or not)
    • Have a will to fight against Beasts or things of the Primordial Dream in general
    Are Called by the Monomyth, and should they answer it, are faced with the Monomyth's Trial. Should the Commoner complete this Trial, they're Forged into a new Hero.

    X-Axis: Foils

    Heroes are the other side of Beasts' coin. Where Beasts come in Breeds, Heroes follow with Foils. The Forged Hero opposes the Beast that made them most of all, so the Monomyth gives them the tools to destroy them. The Foils (with their corresponding Breeds) are as follows:
    • Demagogues (Malakim): Rabble-rousers inspiring angry mobs.
    • Exemplars (Mara): The pinnacle of humanity's virtues, for all that implies.
    • Hierophants (Nyarlathoteps): Spiritual leaders that guide people with their own truths.
    • Purgers (Shakpana):
    • Paladins (Aunshéghlien): Those who defend their law and order.
    • Reclaimers (Turéhu): Those who steal back what was stolen.
    • Slayers (Cipactli): Those who hunt down and kill the monsters themselves.
    Creeds?

    To be honest, I’m not sure whether or not Heroes need Creeds. Sure, Creeds are what Beasts use to give themselves an alternative to the Monomyth (usually), but the real reason they have Creeds is because they once lived human lives and are horrified at what they realize they always were. They hate what they are now, so they try to ease their conscious with a purpose.

    Even if a Hero realizes they’re just part of a violent cycle, they don’t need to cause fear and suffering to live like Beasts do. Besides, there’s plenty of genuinely evil Beasts to focus their efforts on. I might end up giving them Creeds in the future, but as of now I don’t see a reason to.

    Myth, Conformity, & Motifs

    Just like Beasts, Heroes have Myth, Conformity, and Motifs, and they generally work the same way. Albeit, Hero Motifs are based on various “heroic” aspects instead.
    • Alms: Ideal of charity.
    • Cleansing: Ideal of eradicating evil.
    • Fire: Ideal of emotional rousing.
    • Glory: Ideal of attained greatness.
    • Honor: Ideal of forming and maintaining one's principals.
    • Justice: Ideal of righting wrongs.
    • Law: Ideal of order and its enforcement.
    • Lore: Ideal of gaining and maintaining knowledge.
    • Might: Ideal of raw power.
    • Ordnance: Ideal of arming oneself and others.
    • Revelation: Ideal of revealing the truth.
    • Security: Ideal of safety and protection.
    • Solidarity: Ideal of unity.
    • Tenacity: Ideal of never surrendering.
    Leitmotifs
    • Demagogues: Fire, Justice, Solidarity
    • Exemplars: Honor, Justice, Revelation
    • Hierophants: Lore, Revelation, Solidarity
    • Purgers: Cleansing, Alms, Security
    • Paladins: Law, Might, Justice
    • Reclaimers: Glory, Alms, Security
    • Slayers: Ordnance, Might, Tenacity
    Boons & Valor

    Gifts have been renamed Boons and have Motif prerequisites. These Boons are powered by Valor, which the Hero can gain mainly through Praise, which Commoners supply. Basically, they can fuel their powers if they become known and praised for dealing with Beasts and other monsters.

    Waypoints

    Ideal & Life

    Ideal represents the specific motivation the Hero has for fighting Beasts. Life is the same as in Primordial.

    Touchstones

    Heroes simply have Touchstones with Commoners (usually).

    Other Antagonists

    Delvers

    Some lucky Commoners who somehow enter the Primordial Dream manage to escape. Unlucky for them, however, many become addicted to the Primordial Dream, entering it again and again for thrills, power, and knowledge. They often seek Beasts out to study, and typically in unpleasant ways.

    Horrors

    Pre-Beasts. They’re feral natives of the Primordial Dream. They instinctively compete with Beasts, kill or retreat from Heroes, and prey on Commoners.

    The Devoured

    If a Commoner astrally projects (Delvers usually do this) into the Primordial Dream and gets eaten by a Horror, they become one of the Devoured. Devoured are Beasts gone wrong, similar to Revenants, Banishers, Pandorans, etc..

    Archetypes

    Archetypes are Conformity 10 Beasts and Heroes. They can only exist in the Dreams (both Primordial and Bright) and are single-mindedly focused on fulfilling the Monomyth.

    The Abomination Chronicles

    The Primordial Dream is like a giant sinkhole for the World of Darkness. Commoners, Heroes, Cousins, Relatives, and just about everything else have fallen into it. Those unlucky (or lucky?) enough to not escape wind up becoming Abominations. Unnatural amalgamations of various creatures, Abominations seek to escape the Primordial Dream to satisfy their alien appetites. By sheer proximity, Beasts are the vanguard against these monstrosities.

    This is a sample plotline that’s also crossover-friendly.


    Lexicon

    Commoners: Beast and Hero term for ordinary humans.

    Cousins: Beast term for non-Beast major template supernaturals.

    Fiends: Protagonist Beast term for Beasts belonging to the antagonist Creeds: Devils, Kinslayers, and Scourges.

    Relatives: Beast term for minor templates


    It still needs a lot of work before I can begin playtesting, but I've gotten the general idea sussed out. Thoughts? Criticisms? Ideas? Lemme know.
    Last edited by crapcarp; 01-26-2019, 06:07 PM.

  • #2
    The following is awkward for me to say: I admire what you're doing - being creative and giving ones work for review are worthy of respect. However, when you take an already niche game and make an overhaul of it, you end up with the risk of never having it used by anyone, and that would be a shame.

    I've been wondering, have you considered taking your ideas and bending the existing setting to accomodate them? You could base NPCs, Broods and phenomena around your ideas, creating what's essentially fan-made "Night Horrors". Such a format allows for exceptions to established rules, benefits from fresh perspective and is easy to inserts into the baseline game.

    On top of that, "Conquering Heroes" came out to early in Beast's run to contain cultists, Heralds, Horrorspawn and unusual Inheritances. The game is begging for strangeness that you can provide.


    Find my Homebrew Fangs of Mara 2ed update Here

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, I'm making Monomyth mostly for me. Even if I'm the only one who uses it, I'd still consider that a success. Besides, I think there's a substantial number of people who would be interested in this.

      That said, I don't see how things like some of the Breeds, Creeds, Devoured, Abominations, etc. couldn't be adapted to Primordial. I'm may not be interested in doing so, but I wouldn't be adverse to you (or anyone else, for that matter) doing so.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by crapcarp View Post
        Even if I'm the only one who uses it, I'd still consider that a success.
        ...a little bit self-indulgent though, isn't it?

        Comment


        • #5
          Creeds and expanded heroes look especially cool.

          I don't remotely understand the Myth thing, what's the point of giving beasts an integrity stat and touchstones? The equivalent of degeneration in Beast is Heroic tracking; killing people with powers or inflicting supernatural-related breaking points enables it, which is pretty close to how, say, Cover/Compromise works in Demon. Them having two things to roll for being bad doesn't strike me as that great.

          Also "They hate what they are now, so they try to ease their conscious with a purpose" I think making Beast the same kind of self indulgent misery game as Requiem is missing the point. We have like... three games, minimum, about self hating supernaturals, why should Beast be yet another one?

          Comment


          • #6
            Would your scenario be friendly to characters like Wolf Among Us's Bloody Mary? What would she be?


            In the original game I miss the ways to navigate and use the primordial dream in order to attack the victims. It would be interesting some power to reflect this to mimic the chimerical pre-beast condition you've incorporated into them now, a type of Maledictions other than nightmares.

            I would keep the satiety dynamic with the powers and how it affects the creature as a whole, would only simplify the system.

            Comment


            • #7
              I can see why this appeals to you, and if it works for you, cool.

              I'm having trouble seeing what, exactly, this is supposed to be doing better than Primordial, though.

              I mean, as a minor nitpick, because I want to go back to sleep, but you do realize that the nature of Devouring is a form of ouroborous-style actualization where the encounters with the Horror pre-Final Devouring is a psychic journey of collapsing one's persona( and Life) and their shadow(and Legend) into a whole new form of being and aspect of self, where a dreamer has encountered darkness, passed through it and became it, a crystal moment of understanding, that he then emerges from the otherside of, newly reborn in fuller clarity of self and the world?

              Meanwhile Emergence is....just kind of lacking anything other than a kind of flacid rebirth metaphor

              Maybe it's just me, but the entire outline is filled with crap like that. I can see why it appeals to some, but it makes me wonder how deeply you thought this out.

              Also it makes me wonder if you'v actually read the books, because things like "Oh, it's Integrity that make Heroes" is kind of blatantly false.

              I dunno. It's definitely not for me, particularly in a post-BPG world.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
              Currently Working On: The Noble and the Sovereign, Blog

              Comment


              • #8
                I personally liked that regular Beast has room for both The Devouring and The Homecoming, a la how mages, vampires and prometheans all have two ways to become what they are at least. Some beasts are "embraced" by another and some are "self made," their own horrors generated by their own subconscious.

                The fact that you can barely tell which is which means that beasts themselves have no fucking clue whether anyone can become a beast or its something you've always had; and note, the text has mentioned both cases to be true. Its ambiguity I like.

                You can 100% roleplay as the horror if you like, in which case you can be a born monster. An RP element I like to contemplate is a situation where the beast and horror view each other as separate beings; they're more the same being than they are different, but they are still different to some extent and can take independent action and the like.

                So while I think your alteration is adding something (mainly Y splats) I think some of the changes detract from the game.

                Comment


                • #9
                  OK, while my gut reaction is largely in line with a few others, I'm going to try to engage with the premise directly because I think I have some issues that aren't just, "but I like Primordial better."

                  They can really be summed up as, "what does any of this have to do with the monomyth as a game element," with a dash of, "why is this fun?" And a general pinch of, "why rename this when the function hasn't changed and the new name isn't doing anything?" such as Elements.

                  I'm just going to go down the outline:

                  Creeds. These have no place in the monomyth directly, and don't really do anything to play with/subvert/etc. the monomyth. They just seem like a social splat for the sake of having one. There are too many (a single character could easily believe... almost all of them at the same time) as values based organizations, and the 'antagonist' ones don't seem to really be antagonistic to other Beasts. Or maybe there needs to be a clearer definition on how Monomyth based Beasts become protagonists (Usurpers are the only ones that seem to actually do that) for these Creeds to contrast against.

                  Myth. Noooooooope. Power stats should not take your character away at 10. Stop that. This is also the most deprotagonizing trait possible. Subverting the monomyth makes you weak... so Beasts can either be weak and do what they want, or be strong but lose all agency? Why on Earth is Myth not a measure of how much the Beast controls their own role in the monomyth with high numbers representing freedom and empowerment via self-determination (and the horror that means for the rest of the world)? How does this work as an Integrity analog?

                  Atavisms and Maledictions. Maledictions just seem to make things less evocative and more generic by decoupling the source of their power from anything; monsters in the monomyth don't have some innate connection to laying curses on people... so this had to come from somewhere. Varying powers based on obviousness is, again, something that don't have any real feeling of connection to the point. Why should a poisonous stinger's power be variable based on how obvious the Beast is being? This doesn't have much narrative sense and feels punishing to anyone that wants to play a steathly Atavism focused character, or a blatant Malediction character.

                  Distress. What does it actually do? Why is it called Distress? How do you get it? What do you spend it on?

                  Demur & Urge. What does hesitating have to do with rebelling against your place in the monomyth?

                  Bans & Banes. Why is the monomyth punishing Beasts for playing their part?

                  Crying & Signs. Again... why is there any sort of supernatural aspect to Beasts being obvious here? "A honest to goodness dragon swooped down and stole my cow!" is crazy tabloid talk, but is Hunter and Hero bait without any magical push. Nothing in the monomyth says, "obvious Beasts summon Heroes to them."

                  Incitement. Again, why? Where is this in the monomyth? Shouldn't the risk come from feeding already?

                  Rampaging. Frenzy for the sake of being more like vampire and werewolf? This is not a mode that has any place as a required concern in a monomyth exploring game.

                  Foils. Where in the monomyth is this and why does the Monomyth cause this? Monsters take the forms that reflect on the heroes, not the other way around in the default concept. Monsters are only foils if that's what the story needs them to be. Why do Heroes need to be foils to monsters?

                  Touchstones (Heroes). Another why? These are NPCs. This should just be part of Ideal.

                  Other Antagonists. Suddenly thrusting the Primordial Dream back into things undermines the whole focus on the monomyth.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A lot of my own criticisms have been stated by Heavy Arms here. The big problem is going too far in the "power comes with chains" direction. I'd be cool with a weakness towards a Torment style mechanic wherein the Beast becomes slaved to their role in the Monomyth for a bit, but the Myth is also their story, so it shouldn't come with an "NPC" level.

                    That being said, I'm quite intrigued and looking forward to more work on this. Seems a bit more cohesive and less player-alienating as a core concept. So, as a suggestion; Heroes are still largely antagonists, but here, it's explicitly because the Monomyth is a liar. They are generally fated to win, and so it seems like they're the chosen ones... And then the asterisk of the Monomyth hits; the Hero wins, but the Devouring Legend wants her to suffer first. It doesn't care if she loses everything worth protecting in the process of finishing its tale, only that she does. They get punished for breaking the story, while Beasts, being allowed the agency of being an antagonist, can and do act in ways outside their proscribed role without censure. Thus, a Beast can actively plot to break the mold, while a Hero can resist, but not much else.

                    Hm. Lesser template idea; someone who was Called to be a Hero, but rather than answer it, chose to actively leave the inaugural quest before it was completed; the classic one is choosing to emphasize with the Beast, but another is hanging up revenge or deciding that he was going too far - as is chickening out at the last moment. Let's call these people Vanguards, as they tend to be the less powerful members of a Hero's party or a Beast's direct lieutenants. Their ability to hear and utilize the Bright Dream is limited, but at the same time, they aren't protagonists of the Monomyth. Which means they can act outside it (the Monomyth would have them being, say, the Loki to a Hero's Thor; the fact Loki went bad is proof they have more free will).


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                      I don't remotely understand the Myth thing, what's the point of giving beasts an integrity stat and touchstones? The equivalent of degeneration in Beast is Heroic tracking; killing people with powers or inflicting supernatural-related breaking points enables it, which is pretty close to how, say, Cover/Compromise works in Demon. Them having two things to roll for being bad doesn't strike me as that great.
                      One of the aspects of Primordial was how Beasts and Heroes are forced into a specific story. I took that as the main focus of conflict for Monomyth. The Monomyth gives Beasts and Heroes their power, but it also constrains them to the script. Hence why it's both their power stat and Integrity analogue.

                      Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                      Also "They hate what they are now, so they try to ease their conscious with a purpose" I think making Beast the same kind of self indulgent misery game as Requiem is missing the point. We have like... three games, minimum, about self hating supernaturals, why should Beast be yet another one?
                      That's...kinda CoD's schtick when you get right down to it. I mean, its main focus is personal horror, after all.

                      Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                      Would your scenario be friendly to characters like Wolf Among Us's Bloody Mary? What would she be?

                      I'm not familiar with that, so I can't answer your questions here.

                      Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                      In the original game I miss the ways to navigate and use the primordial dream in order to attack the victims. It would be interesting some power to reflect this to mimic the chimerical pre-beast condition you've incorporated into them now, a type of Maledictions other than nightmares.
                      Monomyth's gonna have that in the form of nightmare feeding.


                      Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                      I would keep the satiety dynamic with the powers and how it affects the creature as a whole, would only simplify the system.
                      Problem is: Myth replaces Satiety as the Integrity analogue. Also, I've built Monomyth's system from the ground up rather than editing Primordial's system.

                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      I'm having trouble seeing what, exactly, this is supposed to be doing better than Primordial, though.
                      Better focus, mostly. Primordial, at least to me and several others, feels like there's too many cooks in the kitchen. With Monomyth, I started with the idea of a central focus, and I decided on the narrative aspect.


                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      I mean, as a minor nitpick, because I want to go back to sleep, but you do realize that the nature of Devouring is a form of ouroborous-style actualization where the encounters with the Horror pre-Final Devouring is a psychic journey of collapsing one's persona( and Life) and their shadow(and Legend) into a whole new form of being and aspect of self, where a dreamer has encountered darkness, passed through it and became it, a crystal moment of understanding, that he then emerges from the otherside of, newly reborn in fuller clarity of self and the world?
                      Meanwhile Emergence is....just kind of lacking anything other than a kind of flacid rebirth metaphor
                      Actually, the Emergence is pretty much the Homecoming from Primordial's Kickstarter (there's a reason a Beast's true form is known as their Id). This is because I never actually had a problem with the general concept. I think the real problems most people had with it is how the writing came across as a transgender analogy and how player characters should be glad they turned out to be a monster. Don't get me wrong, I know this wasn't the writers' intent, it's just how it came across to me and several others, hence the complaints.

                      The whole Creeds idea basically solves that issue, since (typical) protagonist Beasts realize they're a monster and seek a means of managing it.

                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      Also it makes me wonder if you'v actually read the books, because things like "Oh, it's Integrity that make Heroes" is kind of blatantly false.
                      Well, I only read the finished corebook and the Kickstarter, not the supplements apart from a few excerpts I got from reviews. So maybe Heroes have changed, but low Integrity was definitely at least a focus on how Heroes formed in the corebook.

                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      I dunno. It's definitely not for me, particularly in a post-BPG world.


                      Dunno what that stands for.

                      Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                      I personally liked that regular Beast has room for both The Devouring and The Homecoming, a la how mages, vampires and prometheans all have two ways to become what they are at least. Some beasts are "embraced" by another and some are "self made," their own horrors generated by their own subconscious.

                      Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                      The fact that you can barely tell which is which means that beasts themselves have no fucking clue whether anyone can become a beast or its something you've always had; and note, the text has mentioned both cases to be true. Its ambiguity I like.
                      You can 100% roleplay as the horror if you like, in which case you can be a born monster. An RP element I like to contemplate is a situation where the beast and horror view each other as separate beings; they're more the same being than they are different, but they are still different to some extent and can take independent action and the like.

                      So while I think your alteration is adding something (mainly Y splats) I think some of the changes detract from the game.
                      What you see as ambiguity, I see as a lack of focus. This is mostly because of the change from Homecoming to Devouring. To me, it seemed like the writers were trying to go for a whole middle-of-the-road thing and went with making it ambiguous as a patch-up solution. One of my main goals with Monomyth is greater focus, hence going with the concept of Homecoming and renaming it Emergence.

                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      OK, while my gut reaction is largely in line with a few others, I'm going to try to engage with the premise directly because I think I have some issues that aren't just, "but I like Primordial better."

                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      They can really be summed up as, "what does any of this have to do with the monomyth as a game element," with a dash of, "why is this fun?" And a general pinch of, "why rename this when the function hasn't changed and the new name isn't doing anything?" such as Elements.
                      Look, if there's still some hard feelings over my "Why Do You Think Beast is Good/Bad?" thread, I apologize for my lack of tact back then. I didn't articulate myself very well and I got carried away. I responded with gut reactions and didn't properly understand the underlying reasons why I didn't like Primordial.

                      If not, then I still wanna apologize anyways.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Creeds. These have no place in the monomyth directly, and don't really do anything to play with/subvert/etc. the monomyth. They just seem like a social splat for the sake of having one. There are too many (a single character could easily believe... almost all of them at the same time) as values based organizations, and the 'antagonist' ones don't seem to really be antagonistic to other Beasts. Or maybe there needs to be a clearer definition on how Monomyth based Beasts become protagonists (Usurpers are the only ones that seem to actually do that) for these Creeds to contrast against.
                      Isn't the whole "teaching lessons" thing in Primordial basically a middle finger to their appointed narrative? So how would the Adversary Creed not defy the Monomyth? Creeds are an expansion on ways to defy their prescribed story.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Myth. Noooooooope. Power stats should not take your character away at 10. Stop that. This is also the most deprotagonizing trait possible. Subverting the monomyth makes you weak... so Beasts can either be weak and do what they want, or be strong but lose all agency? Why on Earth is Myth not a measure of how much the Beast controls their own role in the monomyth with high numbers representing freedom and empowerment via self-determination (and the horror that means for the rest of the world)? How does this work as an Integrity analog?
                      Wait, do you think that players increase Myth with Experiences? If so, and I can understand that since I didn't mention how Myth increases in the OP, then I'll clarify: Myth increases and decreases with breaking points (called Rises and Departures, respectively), not Experiences. Basically, the Monomyth supplies Beasts (and Heroes) their power, hence why their power stat is called Myth. If they conform to the Monomyth, it gives them more power at the cost of their independence. If they defy it, they lose power but are less limited by it. 10 dots means you've completely conformed to it and have absolutely no nuance to your being. You also permanently enter the Primordial Dream and (normally) can't get out, becoming an Insatiable.


                      That said, I think you might be onto something with the whole "self-determination dots" concept. I'll definitely look into that, so thank you.

                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Atavisms and Maledictions. Maledictions just seem to make things less evocative and more generic by decoupling the source of their power from anything; monsters in the monomyth don't have some innate connection to laying curses on people... so this had to come from somewhere.
                      Malediction has a connotation of devil magic, not strictly curses (although that's what term was mainly used for). Maledictions are a Beast's unholy powers that aren't a bodily aspect of their Id (those are covered by Atavisms), basically.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Varying powers based on obviousness is, again, something that don't have any real feeling of connection to the point. Why should a poisonous stinger's power be variable based on how obvious the Beast is being? This doesn't have much narrative sense and feels punishing to anyone that wants to play a steathly Atavism focused character, or a blatant Malediction character.
                      In Primordial, Beasts don't have much of a reason to hide their natures mostly because it's already hidden most of the time. This causes a hell of a lot problems for supernaturals who really need to hide themselves (especially vampires). In a game that's supposed to be crossover-friendly, this is a very bad thing. So for Monomyth, I came up with a reason for them to hide.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Distress. What does it actually do? Why is it called Distress? How do you get it? What do you spend it on?
                      Distress is Essence tied to fear and suffering, hence the name. Beasts mostly get it by making people afraid and suffer according to the Themes they embody. A Beast with the Chaos Theme, for example, might gain Distress by messing up traffic lights on an intersection, thus causing Chaos for all the drivers. Beasts mostly spend it on Atavisms, Maledictions, Elements, and other powers.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Demur & Urge. What does hesitating have to do with rebelling against your place in the monomyth?
                      Demur means to raise objections or show reluctance. Yes, it has a connation of delaying, and that also works because a Beast's Demur is what keeps the Monomyth at bay.

                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Bans & Banes. Why is the monomyth punishing Beasts for playing their part?
                      Because the Monomyth says Beasts need to die.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Incitement. Again, why? Where is this in the monomyth? Shouldn't the risk come from feeding already?
                      Protagonist Beasts tend to not conform to the Monomyth, so the Monomyth tries to make them.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Rampaging. Frenzy for the sake of being more like vampire and werewolf? This is not a mode that has any place as a required concern in a monomyth exploring game.
                      Why not? Monsters of myth rampage all the time, it's a major part of the myth.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Foils. Where in the monomyth is this and why does the Monomyth cause this? Monsters take the forms that reflect on the heroes, not the other way around in the default concept. Monsters are only foils if that's what the story needs them to be. Why do Heroes need to be foils to monsters?
                      Well, in Greek myths, it's often the villain that gets introduced first and then the hero. Even so, Foil is the term Beasts have for types of Heroes. Heroes are gonna have a different term, I just haven't thought of one yet. Also, the title of the game isn't Hero: the Monomyth, it's Beast: the Monomyth. Beasts get the spotlight here and we're looking at things from their perspective.

                      The whole idea behind Foils is that Heroes in Monomyth are more like, well, foils to Beasts rather than schoolyard bullies crossed with rabid dogs. Okay, Kickstarter prose ain't entirely fair, but the point still stands regardless. Primordial really had it out for Heroes despite their capacity for being sympathetic and I really hated that, so for Monomyth I wanted to make Heroes out to be their own characters rather than simple sticks to punish players with.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Touchstones (Heroes). Another why? These are NPCs. This should just be part of Ideal.

                      They're not necessarily NPCs in Monomyth, though. There are legitimate reasons for Heroes to team-up with Beasts, it just doesn't happen very often. So I wanted to leave an option for players to play as Heroes, should they want to.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Other Antagonists. Suddenly thrusting the Primordial Dream back into things undermines the whole focus on the monomyth.
                      I don't see how, considering the Monomyth is part of the Dreams, both Bright and Primordial.

                      Originally posted by Leliel View Post
                      The big problem is going too far in the "power comes with chains" direction. I'd be cool with a weakness towards a Torment style mechanic wherein the Beast becomes slaved to their role in the Monomyth for a bit, but the Myth is also their story, so it shouldn't come with an "NPC" level.

                      That's fair, actually. I've been pretty gung-ho on the weaknesses. I'll playtest them out and see which ones I should ditch or keep. As for the Torment-style mechanic, I could utilize Rampaging for that.

                      Originally posted by Leliel View Post
                      So, as a suggestion; Heroes are still largely antagonists, but here, it's explicitly because the Monomyth is a liar. They are generally fated to win, and so it seems like they're the chosen ones... And then the asterisk of the Monomyth hits; the Hero wins, but the Devouring Legend wants her to suffer first. It doesn't care if she loses everything worth protecting in the process of finishing its tale, only that she does. They get punished for breaking the story, while Beasts, being allowed the agency of being an antagonist, can and do act in ways outside their proscribed role without censure. Thus, a Beast can actively plot to break the mold, while a Hero can resist, but not much else.

                      Originally posted by Leliel View Post
                      Hm. Lesser template idea; someone who was Called to be a Hero, but rather than answer it, chose to actively leave the inaugural quest before it was completed; the classic one is choosing to emphasize with the Beast, but another is hanging up revenge or deciding that he was going too far - as is chickening out at the last moment. Let's call these people Vanguards, as they tend to be the less powerful members of a Hero's party or a Beast's direct lieutenants. Their ability to hear and utilize the Bright Dream is limited, but at the same time, they aren't protagonists of the Monomyth. Which means they can act outside it (the Monomyth would have them being, say, the Loki to a Hero's Thor; the fact Loki went bad is proof they have more free will).

                      Those are some pretty cool ideas. Thank you.
                      Last edited by crapcarp; 01-04-2019, 12:43 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by crapcarp View Post
                        Dunno what that stands for.
                        ...aaaaand there it is folks.

                        It's the Beast Player's Guide which came out last year...which depending on how you look at it, was filled with lots of retroactive errata to the ideas of the whole gameline, or clarified things made unclear in the finalized corebook due to the messy editing.

                        It even got the die-hard critics against Beast on the Darker Days Radio podcast to turn around a little bit on it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by crapcarp View Post
                          Hence why it's both their power stat and Integrity analogue.
                          That still doesn't make a lot of sense I think.

                          That's...kinda CoD's schtick when you get right down to it. I mean, its main focus is personal horror, after all.
                          No, it really isn't. Some of the games go hard in this direction, some mix it up, and some go hard in the other. I would argue that far more of the games are against 'self-loathing' as a focus than not. Forsaken (esp. in 2e) have no particular reason to dislike what they are, even if it's a hard life because the world sucks. The personal horror of Mage is how few mages are terrified by what they can do and how addictive it is, rather than fearing it. Prometheans generally aren't self-loathing even if they feel incomplete and a need to make themselves whole; which is a hopeful process. Hunters don't self-loath much. Changelings are all about pushing past self-loathing and becoming whole and belong. Sin-Eaters are anti-self-loathing as a defining trait. Demons are quite happy to no longer be slaves. Primordial Beasts get to be as happy as they want about what they are.

                          So... Requiem, Mummy, and Deviant.. not really a main focus of the CofD.


                          Better focus, mostly. Primordial, at least to me and several others, feels like there's too many cooks in the kitchen.
                          This very much feels like a move too far in the opposite direction where babies got tossed with the bathwater though. Could BtP use some tighter writing (even if we're already seeing it in supplements)? Yes. But there's a lot of really good things that feel either removed or mucked with in a bad way in what you've presented so far.

                          Actually, the Emergence is pretty much the Homecoming from Primordial's Kickstarter (there's a reason a Beast's true form is known as their Id).
                          That doesn't really address some of the good things Devouring introduced in the revision though. Creating a basis for social relationships between older and younger Beasts for example.

                          The whole Creeds idea basically solves that issue, since (typical) protagonist Beasts realize they're a monster and seek a means of managing it.
                          How do they do that?

                          Why can't I feed on heroes, because they're trying to hurt my family of other Beasts, and think this is awesome because it fills my hunger and makes me stronger? That's three Creeds in one philosophy.

                          Well, I only read the finished corebook and the Kickstarter, not the supplements apart from a few excerpts I got from reviews. So maybe Heroes have changed, but low Integrity was definitely at least a focus on how Heroes formed in the corebook.
                          Low Integrity is what leads Heroes to become the obsessive glory hounds that focus their lives on killing Beasts for being Beasts. High Integrity Heroes are explicitly something that exists, but since they aren't as easily manipulated by the Primordial Dream to play their part, they're not likely to be active antagonists to PCs.

                          Look, if there's still some hard feelings over my "Why Do You Think Beast is Good/Bad?" thread, I apologize for my lack of tact back then.
                          I didn't bring it up, because it wasn't on my mind. Like I said, I was trying to give feedback on your ideas directly not just as "but you changed it!"

                          Isn't the whole "teaching lessons" thing in Primordial basically a middle finger to their appointed narrative?
                          Not really. It's a manufactured role - in character - for them to try to find something constructive to do and it's suggested that it's what Heroes were supposed to be doing, but stopped as more and more took on the pursuit of glory instead of helping humanity understand the horrors of the world around them; thus Beasts think they can break the cycle by controlling both sides of it.

                          So how would the Adversary Creed not defy the Monomyth?
                          Depends on where you think the goal of Beasts existing is? If they're supposed to be part of teaching humanity, engaging with lesson teaching is them giving into the Monomyth, not rejecting it.

                          Creeds are an expansion on ways to defy their prescribed story.
                          Why do these need to be splats with prescribed philosophies? Why isn't Creed something more like a mage's Obsession or a Promethean's New Dawn? A personal path to become something more?

                          Wait, do you think that players increase Myth with Experiences?
                          No idea? Still don't want fail states like that.

                          Myth increases and decreases with breaking points (called Rises and Departures, respectively), not Experiences. Basically, the Monomyth supplies Beasts (and Heroes) their power, hence why their power stat is called Myth.
                          Forsaken 2e doesn't take away your character if your Harmony hits 10 or 0.... it just makes it a pain to get back on track after going so far off the rails; as the closest Integrity equivalent to this concept.

                          It's still deprotagonizing with your options of, "keep Myth low and be so week Heroes will easily kill you," and, "let your Myth go up and have so many Bans and Banes that Heroes will easily kill you."

                          Why do I want to play, "roll a lot of dice to see how you die when the NPCs finally kill you no matter what you do." as a game?. Either you obey and die, or rebel and die, and there's no way out besides hand your sheet to your ST... which might as well mean die.

                          Malediction has a connotation of devil magic, not strictly curses (although that's what term was mainly used for)
                          Not particularly? It literally means to speak evil on someone, aka curse them.

                          Maledictions are a Beast's unholy powers that aren't a bodily aspect of their Id (those are covered by Atavisms), basically.
                          Yes, but why do they have those as a default kind of power? Where does it come from?

                          In Primordial Beasts have Nightmares because they are literally nightmare creatures that can tap into those horrible dreams and make people feel the emotions of them.

                          Why does the Monomyth give Beasts Maledictions? How is that a necessary part of their role in the cycle when they have Atavisms.

                          This causes a hell of a lot problems for supernaturals who really need to hide themselves (especially vampires). In a game that's supposed to be crossover-friendly, this is a very bad thing.
                          I don't see why. "Crossover friendly" doesn't mean "conflict free crossover." Beasts in Primordial don't have perfect relationships with other supernaturals. That's a good thing. Removing it makes the game less interesting.

                          Demur means to raise objections or show reluctance.
                          Not in the sense of rebelling against an oppressive force beyond human control.

                          Because the Monomyth says Beasts need to die.
                          That's why it makes Heroes. Mythology doesn't have creatures gaining more and more weakness as heroes fail to kill them. They have the weaknesses they have until someone finally takes advantage of them and kills them.

                          Protagonist Beasts tend to not conform to the Monomyth, so the Monomyth tries to make them.
                          Why do I want to play a game where the game consistently plays me?

                          "Rebel at all and the Monomyth smacks you down a million times harder" is a game where the players just sit around and do nothing.

                          Why not? Monsters of myth rampage all the time, it's a major part of the myth.
                          Actually... they don't. Generally they're presented as beasts that are violent like any other animal in conflict with humans, or smart and bouts of violence are purposeful instead of blind rages.

                          So it's not important, and one more way for the game to make the players sit back and get punished for trying to do something interesting.

                          Well, in Greek myths, it's often the villain that gets introduced first and then the hero.
                          Such as? And how does this demonstrate that the heroes and villains are inherently tied to each other as foils?

                          The whole idea behind Foils is that Heroes in Monomyth are more like, well, foils to Beasts rather than schoolyard bullies crossed with rabid dogs.
                          That doesn't explain the benefit to this to actually enjoying the game.

                          Primordial really had it out for Heroes despite their capacity for being sympathetic and I really hated that, so for Monomyth I wanted to make Heroes out to be their own characters rather than simple sticks to punish players with.
                          Primordial is actually pretty sympathetic to Heroes and presents a sample one in the core explicitly to be sympathetic instead of a glory hound.

                          And your Heroes are still just sticks to punish players with...even if they have more character traits than before, because that doesn't actually make them more complete narrative characters.

                          They're not necessarily NPCs in Monomyth, though.
                          Is the focus on Beasts or not?

                          And why do they need to mirror Beasts so completely mechanically?

                          I don't see how, considering the Monomyth is part of the Dreams, both Bright and Primordial.
                          At the moment, this is a fairly meaningless statement.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                            ...aaaaand there it is folks.

                            It's the Beast Player's Guide which came out last year...which depending on how you look at it, was filled with lots of retroactive errata to the ideas of the whole gameline, or clarified things made unclear in the finalized corebook due to the messy editing.

                            It even got the die-hard critics against Beast on the Darker Days Radio podcast to turn around a little bit on it.
                            Yeeeep.

                            On a few things:

                            Better focus would account for the fact that Monomyth is an outside experience to the natural world that we inhabit, an alien sort of narrative. The world as Beasts experience is fundamentally nihilistic in nature, and validates most stories as personal experiences that fit within broader socio-psychological structures that have emerged over the species' run on the planet that nevertheless are not wholly defining for people, much like how how two siblings can come from the same family and have the same set of family stories but ultimately have their own experience are are thus their own people. Monomyth, in Primordial, is counter to that attitude, and thus feels like an alien invader to the world as people experience it, an imposition into the way of the world that might have even more dangerous validity than Beasts are comfortable with because of how prominent it seems, but the world of Beast, as much as our own, largely treats it as antagonist because it's form cannot hope to actually describe the infinite multitude of stories that are naturally emergent, and attempting to use it actually causes more harm to both the narratives and the people who both tell and receive them by stripping them of all meaning except for all but a narcissistic few(for more on this, there are way too many articles, both online and academic, about the problems of Monomyth, I trust you can find them).

                            Just saying.

                            Meanwhile, while I get what you're doing with Emergence, that really does strongly miss out on the strong metaphor-and-starting-character-beat that Beasts start on with the Devouring having been clarified and even defined as they are. They have come home not only because they have, you know, turned into monsters they always sort of knew they were, but because they have gone through a mythic realization of self, a metaphor that is as powerful for a transgender individual as it is for...well, anyone else. They have Devoured everything confining and defining and have escaped themselves into a fuller and more whole individual. This concept also creates interesting story potential for starting Beasts, because beasts start off at a point many stories-hell, many of the other gamelines-would actually end on, and therefore opens up a new cavalcade of character concepts and story concepts as we now answer the question of "now what?", which is primarily the dual matters of self-transcendence(enforced by Lair bleeding into Hunger and Chamber gathering, which builds into Kinship, and is heavily conflicted with by both Heroic and Insatiable confrontation) and self-reflection(to a lesser extent, admittedly, but that's not forgotten).

                            I'm just saying, maybe Devouring was done, not because they felt uncomfortable with the queer analogue, but because they found a better, sharper, grander way to express the ideas they were going for.

                            And finally, look man, you don't want to read material post two books that turned you off, I get that, but you should know full well what the reaction will be when you then try solve things that are well and resolved by supplemental material. You wanna rewrite the game, you gotta know what you are getting into.

                            EDIT Oh yeah, I forgot: No, Beast does not claim that Heroes emerge from low Integrity. Heroes emerge from a phenomenon similar but not quite like what Beast's experience. Where Low Integrity matters is that the Heroic condition as it exists in a post-agricultural age tends to push most Heroes into a Low Integrity lifestyle without some work against it, which is why most of the Heroes who are active in their antagonizing of Beasts tend to hang around Integrity 4. A Hero could be Integrity 10 and still be a Hero, it's just likely that his prey are probably exceptional outliers to Beast's normalcy and that the rest of their schtick involves the interpretation of Beast activity and the mitigation of their harm without actively killing them or destroying their role in the psycho-spiritual ecology.

                            You can tell me you read the books, but stuff like this feels...counter to the argument.
                            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 01-04-2019, 05:22 AM.


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                            • #15
                              I think it's important to clarify that the means by which Heroes are created was changed from the kickstarter draft to the final release. You aren't wrong if you remember reading that they are created when someone with low integrity witnesses a Beast in action, but that's very much not the case in the finished product.

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