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A Different Take: Heroes as Protagonists and Beasts as Antagonists?

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  • Still... Changeling the Dreaming and Wraith the Oblivion went there (even if more optionally than Beast) over 20 years ago. Perhaps it's why people talk about the big three instead of the original five a lot, but those two games and some very hard to disassociate from real life ways of 'feeding;' and some of the most disturbing aren't even inherently violent. A CtD Changeling that specializes in Ravaging for Glamour would probably make a good number of Beasts balk at how vicious it is to just drain away all the positivity and creativity via purposeful emotional sabotage on someone until they're a depressed wreck of a human being... and keep doing it until you've broken them completely... is way farther than most Beasts would go.

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    • I’m not a big OWOD fan. Can you explain to my how Wraith went there?

      Don’t wraiths feed on being rembred?

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      • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
        Don’t wraiths feed on being rembred?
        No. What you're thinking of is the Memoriam Background...which, well, not every Wraith has that.

        They feed off of emotions to gain their fuel stat, Pathos. Their Passions are linked to strong emotions that keep a wraith stuck in the Shadowlands/Underworld, usually tied to something in life that they left unresolved. While it's possible for them to gain Pathos from secondhand sources that just experience the emotion, it's easier for them to get it back by experiencing their Passion as a whole. And since some Passions are specific enough to not always occur, that means the Wraith might need to engineer a situation so that they CAN get the Pathos they need...regardless if any mortals involved are aware of it.

        EDIT: Apologies if my answer is a bit rushed, I'm stepping off to work right now.
        Last edited by tasti man LH; 03-25-2019, 06:57 PM.

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        • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
          That I have an idea for. It's mostly that Beast doesn't bullshit around with the fact that you are a monster:
          I think it kind of does, though. Vampire, as disassociated as it is from the act of harming people, doesn't tell people they're out there doing good in the world the way the Beast attempted with its lesson belief system. While you could argue that the Lancea et Sanctum are chosen by god to do the will of god, it seems fairly clear that that is them clinging to straws, rather than the developer telling us that god is giving them the go ahead as part of their plan.

          While the covenants are structures designed to maintain a semblance of humanity as one is already a monster, they're clearly painted as coping mechanisms developed over the ages, rather than the universe going out and telling them 'This is the way.'

          Though I think your perspective on the 'tangibility' of the damage done to humans is pretty well thought out (and that we're a bit likeminded on this point, even if our own opinions on the games are different), Beasts do have a way around it via the Family Dinner option, which is the way to have the fear-mongering monster without the baggage of being a fear-monger, just sort of assisting one. Of course that also weakens my argument about terror in the modern world versus the disassociation of physical harm in tabletop games too.
          Last edited by nofather; 03-25-2019, 07:20 PM.

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          • family dinner, while a very useful ability, should be noted that beast cant expect to find every supernatural, much less think that they will be friendly to them and ALWAYS be friendly with them.

            family dinner in the end has 2 big shortcomings. it relies on the beast being able to establish a relationship with a supernatural who likely wont always be there for him, and 2 hope that new friend is willing to be more overt in his methods so the beast can feed. now the first part can be argued that they dont NEED to be in a relationship, but a beast can only be stealthy for so long before being found out (and this is ignoring have to know the unknowing associated whereabouts). the 2nd part may matter less with werewolves compared to other supernaturals, but for many creatures it's best to be subtle around humans and not cause fear willy-nilly. having a beast tell you to just scare the crap out of someone would be a chore for many (though to be fair, that beast should help in return obviously)

            to end it off, a beast surviving on family dinner is likely only doing that. surviving and never living

            EDIT: I am VERY sorry if I misinterpreted and that you simply met beast DOES have a way to avoid scaring people, instead of saying it was a viable alternative to just feeding themselves
            Last edited by Primordial newcomer; 03-25-2019, 07:59 PM.

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            • Family Dinner is a very useful dial to have if you want to run stories on the less monstrous side though. There are a fair number of ways to use it for low impact feeding, sometimes even lower impact than the other splats could manage alone, and far lower than if the two were both feeding separately.

              For example, a Beast with Relentless Hunter befriends a vampire and establishes family ties. Once or twice a week they go out and hunt down a mortal and the vampire takes a single point of vitae so the Beast can get that sweet three satiety. The rest of the time the vampire stays topped off on the Beast, who recovers as much blood in two hours as a mortal does in a week. The vamp is taking a fraction of the mortal blood they would otherwise need just to stay alive and the Beast is just tagging along. It's never completely victimless, but it's as close as you can get in these games.

              Sure, it isn't always that easy. You wouldn't want it to always be that easy. But it's a nice option to have. Sometimes you want to play a "designated bad guy" who has worked hard to make a positive difference.

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              • HelmsDerp, re-reading family dinner, my bad. I misremembered how it worked.

                you do have a point, but it should still be noted that such a smooth partnership would be exceptionally rare. (though I will say much more beneficial than I once thought for the beast. I thought the partner would still have to inspire fear)

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                • Well, it wouldn't be much of a game if there were never any complications, but I think Beasts with that Atavism wouldn't have too much trouble finding a vampire willing to bite, pun very much intended. Removing most of the effort and worry of feeding is a damn good incentive for an alliance.

                  Another personal favorite strategy for low impact feeding: Follow some Summer Court Changelings to a political protest. A few people go home a bit more emotionally drained as the changelings harvest glamour, but it's nothing a good night's sleep won't fix. You can adjust the event based on court. Attend a concert with Spring or a wake with Winter. Help Autumn run the best haunted house in the county. The main thing a Beast has to offer in that dynamic is the relative safety with which they can thwart Huntsmen, given that they have no special weakness to iron and many strong combat powers.

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                  • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    While you could argue that the Lancea et Sanctum are chosen by god to do the will of god, it seems fairly clear that that is them clinging to straws, rather than the developer telling us that god is giving them the go ahead as part of their plan.
                    Lancea Sanctum's tactics as working is never called into question. Likewise, they don't pay the humanity piper for their actions. The narrative of God existing and sending them forth is called into question (because Requiem isn't really about metaphysical validation), but their tactics working as far as stoking faith and maintaining their humanity is never called into question. Beast lesson stuff is nothing new for the game, but its called into question for beasts, while LS doing the things that would tank the humanity of any other vampire is never called into question.

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                    • Originally posted by Deinos View Post

                      Lancea Sanctum's tactics as working is never called into question. Likewise, they don't pay the humanity piper for their actions. The narrative of God existing and sending them forth is called into question (because Requiem isn't really about metaphysical validation), but their tactics working as far as stoking faith and maintaining their humanity is never called into question. Beast lesson stuff is nothing new for the game, but its called into question for beasts, while LS doing the things that would tank the humanity of any other vampire is never called into question.
                      to be fair here, the Lancea Sanctum (and granted this is from their 1st edition supplement) not only bring their faith in to stop their humanity from draining, but also initiated programs like confessions to lift burdens from vampires.

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                      • I could make a case about the LeS does work in a very human way, even if not in a very good way. There's plenty very human about twisting religion to justify morally reprehensible actions.

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                        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          I could make a case about the LeS does work in a very human way, even if not in a very good way. There's plenty very human about twisting religion to justify morally reprehensible actions.
                          True, but that's... not actually how Humanity works, for anyone but them.

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