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Why I Really Miss The Homecoming.

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  • #46
    ugh do not Dungeons and dragons the most Populur RPG in the world just have Your a adventurer ..as its hook

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
      ugh do not Dungeons and dragons the most Populur RPG in the world just have Your a adventurer ..as its hook
      Please actually read the posts you're responding to.

      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
      Now for any sufficiently self-motivated player, creating a similar character is not hard, but RPG convention actually still leans heavily on the idea that a player character is an unmoored reactor to the hooks provided by the game master. Even after all the time that White Wolf has spent honing an audience on that subject, there's still a lot of people who just don't come up with a personal ambition


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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      • #48
        ^This.

        Building it a little bit, Dungeons and Dragons actually makes it's point pretty explicitly, to the point where trying to diverge from it tends to be where problems really start coming up-Your gameplay is explicitly aimed at finding and clearing dungeons, with loot and murder being the point.

        White Wolf games, particularly Chronicles, tend to ask a little more from characters than just being a murder hobo, and that goes double for Beast, considering the main story that Beast is lampooning is, shocker, Dungeons and Dragons.

        Funnily enough, the Lair-By-Kinship was originally a very strong element for this(hell, it actually was a combination of dungeon diving and dark mystery), but Lair-By-Hunger was kind of just left flailing in the wind. Lessons, regardless of anything else, did a good job of anchoring that back into place.
        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 04-08-2019, 03:27 PM.


        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #49
          Also, can we all just agree that trying to use DnD to argue against elements of Beast is just inherently funny? Not to say it's invalid, just funny.
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 04-08-2019, 03:25 PM.


          Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

          Comment


          • #50
            Hahaha Okay. That kind of was a shit comparison ‘)

            I mean theirs always part of the Game to Justifies why the main characters don’t just Stay home and watch TV.

            Like most people would do Fight Horrid monsters from another World or just Stay home , eat ice-cream, and watch Netflix. Hmmm what would you chose?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              I mean, regardless of whether it is or not, the original question still stands for Beasts. They can just eat, but a Beast basically has to be okay with eating anyone and everyone regardless of who or what they are or what they are going through and how they can or can't afford your Satiation. Because the instant a Beast put in any sort of logic, any sort of reason, any sort of justification to chewing on people, they've created a Lesson-and most of them are going to be really bad ones done that way. "I ate you for your [Hunger] because of X" invariably happens.
              I agree with this up to a point, but a Beast feeding completely at random is still arguably teaching a lesson. "Sometimes bad things happen for no other reason than that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time." Humans are wired to identify patterns; you literally can't interact with them without engaging that mental reflex, short of wiping their memories. I can see the argument for trying to control what pattern they identify to the best of your ability, but it isn't the kind of structure I've found my characters needing or wanting.

              That said, I prefer to get involved with other splat's problems and play up the found family angle, so I can't claim Beast, by itself, in the absence of crossover, doesn't need some kind of focus. Ironically St. George is my self motivating model. If the kingdom is too peaceful just go riding off until you run into someone in trouble!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                So since it hasn't been addressed, I wanna take some of my time to answer a question here, being why Lessons were added in.

                The answer to that is actually kind of really easy, because it's the same reason Mages became occult detectives and Sin-Eaters became social justice necromancers (for the win)-because while it's nice to assume otherwise, most players kind of suck at self-motivation, which is a key element of good character design.

                Mage is probably the better poster child of the issue than Geist, since Geist at least had the "What was your life missing before and how are you going to fix that now" going on, plus the question of what, at least, was your attitude towards the dead-but both were games that gave you a lot of power and a recontextualization for your life, but nowhere to neccesarily go. Sure, they pointed at things-Mage was all about chasing after the hidden symbols of power in the world and using that to grow and develop, and Geist had the above, but it wasn't....explicit text in the original versions, that left a lot of people with characters with really cool powers and nothing to do but enact their own will.

                Now for any sufficiently self-motivated player, creating a similar character is not hard, but RPG convention actually still leans heavily on the idea that a player character is an unmoored reactor to the hooks provided by the game master. Even after all the time that White Wolf has spent honing an audience on that subject, there's still a lot of people who just don't come up with a personal ambition. So these games (and others aside) honed down into the idea of a thing to do-Mages now explicitly chase Mysteries (and in so doing, grow in magical power), and Geists have their Krewe Archetypes to direct them towards resolving issues for the dead and ultimately challenging the Underworld. By making the action more of a point, these games got their points across stronger and gave an answer for players asking "What are we gonna do tonight, Brain?"

                Beast, in the middle of the Kickstarter campaign, clearly had a problem of this sort. Sure, it was clear that Beasts build their Lair and chase after their Hungers and Kinship, but a lot of people reading at the time had no fucking clue to what end. With a desperate attempt to right the ship middle of the campaign rather than pull back, the revisions that changed a lot of things also introduced Lessons as something that both united Beasts into a culture and gave them something to do-it's the same as before, ultimately, but now it has a strong contextualization, something that kind of screams "Build Your Myth".

                Obviously it's more hit or miss than what happened in the case of Mage or Geist, but a significant part of the reader group* at least latched onto it, and it does bring home the idea of building yourself, because now instead of just being a collection of things to chase and elements to grab, it makes it clear that a Beast is out to make themselves a self-owned message, fuck what anyone else thinks is being said. It's controversial as hell, but it does a decent enough job at action-izing the things a Beast was doing into a more coherent direction, ie, a story you might want to tell.

                It's also not a bad dynamic as it goes, because as mentioned before a Beast can change their mind about what lesson they teach or if they even bother with it. All of that goes a long way in building up the conflict with nihilism that Beast has-namely, how much worth is there in rejecting it when the value of acceptance is always there.
                I still Hate the lessons Bullshit. It’s like I’m helping you by Beating the shit out of you.And Emotionally Abusing you it’s for your own good.

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                • #53
                  The problem is that the "lessons Bullshit" is quite clearly after a few threads now something that exists 100% in your own head, and has nothing to do with what's actually in the books... so it's kinda silly to keep just going on about in threads that are supposed to be about Beast.

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                  • #54
                    gotta agree with heavy arms. Konrad you seem to just disregard whatever input people give you on lessons. that's not a good mindset to have.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                      Hahaha Okay. That kind of was a shit comparison ‘)

                      I mean theirs always part of the Game to Justifies why the main characters don’t just Stay home and watch TV.

                      Like most people would do Fight Horrid monsters from another World or just Stay home , eat ice-cream, and watch Netflix. Hmmm what would you chose?
                      I choose the monsters. That's why I took the job I have. I could have sat back and said "you know, I think I'll be an accountant. Bankers hours, nice office, safe from bullets."

                      Instead I chose a different profession. One where I protect people, and take down criminals and terrorists.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

                        I still Hate the lessons Bullshit. It’s like I’m helping you by Beating the shit out of you.And Emotionally Abusing you it’s for your own good.
                        Hey, you asked why it was added, not how you're supposed to like it. I answered the question asked.

                        As dealing with Hate goes, a) yes, we know, b) that's your problem at this point. I can't help you like or dislike anything, I can only explain how it works or doesn't work (and in this case, while rushed, it does work) and why I like it or don't.

                        And as far as that last one goes, while I think it's more functional, fun, and interesting than people go for, and that too many people get hung up on the human perspective of it vs the perspective that Beast presents (Because yes, teaching with fear is a bad thing, but you're playing a monster who made the choice of being a monster, so at some point we're past the conventional arguments), it's not something I'm wholly married to. My Ugallu Tyrant uses them ironically, my Anakim Ravager uses it to lie to herself about her motivations, my Makara Predator and Ugallu Nemeses don't bother with them at all, and my Inguma Nemeses takes it all too seriously. I like running the gamut, and exploring the various ideas about what it means to own one's self and how that relates. I personally also really take issue with the idea of ignoring the fact that people are always saying something, and therefore like to explore the impact of that fact from different angles.

                        I can't help you with your take on it-it's not wrong, in fairness (though, again, I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle-a lot of people do).

                        But here's the thing-like it or not, it's part of the text. It's part of the text across several books now. Hating it doesn't change the fact that it's there. People can hate it all they want, it's still in there when I open Primordial up.

                        So at some point, hating Lessons the way you do does nothing but basically create problems for yourself, because you're holding onto something that burns for you rather than letting go, and you're insistence on the point in the community does nothing but alienate you from that community. I say this having seen someone else fall to the same sort of problem last week.

                        You don't like Lessons, fine, I get why, and I can't fault you for it. But if this is going to be a thing, you need to take the current corrosive impulse you have to attack it and turn it into something constructive, a way to build up and improve things for yourself and other people. If you just keep attacking Lessons when nothing's going to come of it, you're just setting yourself up to get struck down.

                        Funny how these things come around, idn't it?


                        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Feminine pronouns, please.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

                          I still Hate the lessons Bullshit. It’s like I’m helping you by Beating the shit out of you.And Emotionally Abusing you it’s for your own good.
                          So, the above is my full response, but I have a question in contrast to this:

                          So this is a problem as opposed to "I am beating the shit out of you just because" and "I'ma emotionally abuse you just because?"

                          I mean, I can point out other problems here (it's a shock of fear, not a fist to the face), but just running with the metaphor, the intentions of a person don't change anything for the person getting beaten up or abused. Put that way, if that's your problem, then it's not Lessons you object to, it's Beast(and honestly, Chronicles gamelines over all, because ain't single one of these fucks free from this sort of shit).

                          Lesson or not, a Beast is driven to satisfy their Hunger. They perform acts of predation on people. They will always hunt people down and cause harm to them. To use the crass metaphors, they will beat the shit out of people and emotionally abuse the hell out of them all the time.

                          And that's not out of spec for Chronicles. Vampires steal your blood and emotional will, werewolves claw at your sanity and hunt down your friends, families, and co-workers, mages will manipulate you and use you for their reality shaping schemes, Prometheans will curse your lands, lash out at you and yours, and build a toxic hatred in you, changelings will drive you to emotional extremes and fuck with your subconscious, hunters will kill and harass you and your neighbors, sin-eaters will haunt your sleep, your houses, your regrets, mummies will subjugate you and punish you, demons will destroy your stability and steal your face, and yes, Beasts will scare the fucking shit out of you.

                          Chronicles is a game about monsters. Monsters are people who hurt people. The difference between them is how much of that is your choice, why you do it, and how you handle that personally.

                          Vampires tend to just eventually accept the fact they hurt people. Werewolves do it in the name of shaping their territory. Mages do it in the name of shaping reality. Prometheans do it in the name of becoming more human. Changelings do it in the name of building a home for themselves. Hunters do it in the name of keeping people safe. Sin-Eaters do it in the name of helping the dead. Mummies do it in the name of their Empire and their Judges. Demons do it in the name of handling a perverse god. Sometimes, any iteration of this can include helping their victims out. A lot of the times? It leaves them on the side of the road.

                          Beasts can do it entirely for themselves, not give a single fuck about you and how you feel, and just eat you up-beat you up and scar you because they're hungry, damn it.

                          Or Beasts can try and think of ways to at least make it useful, to make their feeding an opportunity for you to realize, to grow, to challenge, to experience, to do something more with the fact that they are going to punch your face in or scare you and try and turn their Hunger into something...if not good, then at least something that doesn't completely fuck over their victims.

                          SO which is worse?

                          Just being a monster? Or being a monster trying to make something good out of what they will always do?

                          Because either way, Beasts hurt people.
                          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 04-09-2019, 04:36 PM.


                          Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            Beasts can do it entirely for themselves, not give as single fuck about you and how you feel, and just eat you up-beat you up and scar you because they're hungry, damn it.

                            Or Beasts can try and think of ways to at least make it useful, to make their feeding an opportunity for you to realize, to grow, to challenge, to experience, to do something more with the fact that they are going to punch your face in or scare you and try and turn their Hunger into something...if not good, then at least something that doesn't completely fuck over their victims.

                            SO which is worse?

                            Just being a monster? Or being a monster trying to make something good out of what they will always do?

                            Because either way, Beasts hurt people.
                            Lord, what can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the reaper man?


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                              So, the above is my full response, but I have a question in contrast to this:

                              So this is a problem as opposed to "I am beating the shit out of you just because" and "I'ma emotionally abuse you just because?"

                              I mean, I can point out other problems here (it's a shock of fear, not a fist to the face), but just running with the metaphor, the intentions of a person don't change anything for the person getting beaten up or abused. Put that way, if that's your problem, then it's not Lessons you object to, it's Beast(and honestly, Chronicles gamelines over all, because ain't single one of these fucks free from this sort of shit).

                              Lesson or not, a Beast is driven to satisfy their Hunger. They perform acts of predation on people. They will always hunt people down and cause harm to them. To use the crass metaphors, they will beat the shit out of people and emotionally abuse the hell out of them all the time.

                              And that's not out of spec for Chronicles. Vampires steal your blood and emotional will, werewolves claw at your sanity and hunt down your friends, families, and co-workers, mages will manipulate you and use you for their reality shaping schemes, Prometheans will curse your lands, lash out at you and yours, and build a toxic hatred in you, changelings will drive you to emotional extremes and fuck with your subconscious, hunters will kill and harass you and your neighbors, sin-eaters will haunt your sleep, your houses, your regrets, mummies will subjugate you and punish you, demons will destroy your stability and steal your face, and yes, Beasts will scare the fucking shit out of you.

                              Chronicles is a game about monsters. Monsters are people who hurt people. The difference between them is how much of that is your choice, why you do it, and how you handle that personally.

                              Vampires tend to just eventually accept the fact they hurt people. Werewolves do it in the name of shaping their territory. Mages do it in the name of shaping reality. Prometheans do it in the name of becoming more human. Changelings do it in the name of building a home for themselves. Hunters do it in the name of keeping people safe. Sin-Eaters do it in the name of helping the dead. Mummies do it in the name of their Empire and their Judges. Demons do it in the name of handling a perverse god. Sometimes, any iteration of this can include helping their victims out. A lot of the times? It leaves them on the side of the road.

                              Beasts can do it entirely for themselves, not give a single fuck about you and how you feel, and just eat you up-beat you up and scar you because they're hungry, damn it.

                              Or Beasts can try and think of ways to at least make it useful, to make their feeding an opportunity for you to realize, to grow, to challenge, to experience, to do something more with the fact that they are going to punch your face in or scare you and try and turn their Hunger into something...if not good, then at least something that doesn't completely fuck over their victims.

                              SO which is worse?

                              Just being a monster? Or being a monster trying to make something good out of what they will always do?

                              Because either way, Beasts hurt people.

                              Goddamn i love reading your writing. Way to hit the nail right the fuck on the head, especially with ripping off that ingrained veil of innocence and moral high ground the other splats stand on when people compare them to Beast. It always has and always will drive me out of my mind how all the other splats get a pass for the awful shit they do just by being what they are while Beasts get crucified for being arguably less awful than many of them and far more in control. Thanks for this, ArcaneArts as you have once again said what I and likely many others wanted to communicate far better than i ever could.


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                              • #60
                                I still hate the devouring it feels wrong , do you know that in W:TO The Process of a Shadow Taking over the Psych is called Devouring.

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