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Some thoughts on how I'd like to see Beast

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
    My statement of wanting to draw on changeling the dreaming is for just that, getting beasts out of a rut, they are limited in ways alot of the other games are not. They must play the sole role as terrorizing antagonist, and only terrorizing antagonist, no other form of villian.
    I dunno, I went to beasts in part due to having room for greater variety than vampires, and for generally striking me as less awful than vampires. Any splat you don't like is going to come off as limited. Afterall, vampires are limited to only being negative and destructive towards humans, and the game lectures you on how trying to be anything but that is doomed to fail.

    Beasts, on the other hand, can range the gamut of morality and the game doesn't sneer at you for being a good person, being a positive influence on people's lives, etc. Just as morality and society wise you can do more with beasts than "abusive parasite living in a world of zero sum crapsack politics," they can, right from chargen, roam any plane of existence and be at nearly any power level.

    There is also an entire hunger about transgression, enablers.

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    • #17
      Maybe I haven't quite communicated effectively. My idea is that beasts, instead of JUST focusing on the fears of an individual, could focus on the fears of a society as a whole, tying the idea of otherness into the idea of promoting subversion and a lack on security into the norms of people, not just as one person but as a group. They can act as bringers of change when in the right light, but also agents of chaos, fear, disorder and corruption (hence one of my examples being encouraging an uratha to become a pale hound, while another could be convincing abused spouses to leave their abuser), I feel that removing the idea of your horror running off to hurt people without your consent, instead everything you do is your own choice, and you suffer from an alienation to others similar to disquiet, where over time those who meet you that aren't directly being affected by you come how to you with hatred and disgust.

      Everything a beast does currently would fall under this, scaring people, threatening them, threatening to expose them, but it would also allow you to take on the idea of dark mentor more effectively.
      This would also allow you to begin functioning in a role where you would begin affecting society in a broader sense, being able to become an urban legend, a representative of collective fears, instead of just one person's. overtime you could evolve into a myth, both as a creature to be feared, but also an icon of discord and subversion.
      Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 04-06-2019, 02:25 AM.

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      • #18
        Enablers tho. They even can be explicitly about transgressions against bad beliefs and there are already rules for changing the collective unconscious, becoming a living myth, and so forth.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
          Maybe I haven't quite communicated effectively. My idea is that beasts, instead of JUST focusing on the fears of an individual, could focus on the fears of a society as a whole, tying the idea of otherness into the idea of promoting subversion and a lack on security into the norms of people, not just as one person but as a group. They can act as bringers of change when in the right light, but also agents of chaos, fear, disorder and corruption (hence one of my examples being encouraging an uratha to become a pale hound, while another could be convincing abused spouses to leave their abuser), I feel that removing the idea of your horror running off to hurt people without your consent, instead everything you do is your own choice, and you suffer from an alienation to others similar to disquiet, where over time those who meet you that aren't directly being affected by you come how to you with hatred and disgust.

          Everything a beast does currently would fall under this, scaring people, threatening them, threatening to expose them, but it would also allow you to take on the idea of dark mentor more effectively.
          This would also allow you to begin functioning in a role where you would begin affecting society in a broader sense, being able to become an urban legend, a representative of collective fears, instead of just one person's. overtime you could evolve into a myth, both as a creature to be feared, but also an icon of discord and subversion.

          But Beasts can already do this. All of it. What you're proposing would take all the teeth and consequences out of these acts. They would basically become superheroes; if there is no reason to do bad things and in fact only punishment, then where is the ..... conflict? What I and many others are trying to get you to understand is Beast does exactly what you're asking for if you choose to play it that way.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post


            But Beasts can already do this. All of it. What you're proposing would take all the teeth and consequences out of these acts. They would basically become superheroes; if there is no reason to do bad things and in fact only punishment, then where is the ..... conflict? What I and many others are trying to get you to understand is Beast does exactly what you're asking for if you choose to play it that way.
            this guy is right you know Darkfoxdev? this is the entire point of Lessons and I cant add on because Eternal Darkness explained it perfectly.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
              Problem with true monsters, they're shallow, they get boring after about an hour. How many horror film sequels can you play before you're either retreading old ground or taking the game in directions it was never meant to go (like space). Playing a group of hellraisers who both lack empathy and you have no empathy for is not a recipe for a deep or nuanced chronicle, and anything else... eh. I'd rather build it with a nice PbtA one shot, that would be fun for a night with friends and likely only last 6 hours all tolled up.

              I didn't mean that the antagonists were tamed as a criticism but as an observation of need, villians who are villians for the sake of villiany is something stories tend to outgrow as we leave childhood, playing groups wholly defined by their need to hurt others isn't... well human enough. You aren't a person, you aren't a being with connections to a setting, you are a tool with which a problem can be solved or exasperated. The strix, the demons of inferno, even spirits aren't really playable because they aren't true characters. They're static. Either they make like a strix and find new people to hurt or they make like a spirit and sit in one spot and soak up the fruits of villiany.

              When stories were told about the villian it works to make them either sympathetic, or it gives them little character, treating them as a force of nature. Compare the original Dracula to the Bram Stoker's Dracula film or Interview with a vampire. Villians need nuance to be people, and people need sympathetic motives to be empathetic. Even Paradise Lost gives Lucifer a motive that seems sensible at face value (and shaped demon the fallen).
              I agree with this. Take the Sabbat in Vampire: The Masquerade: V5 portrays them as utter monsters, which I liked. But then so did 90s VtM. That was the point of the whole Path system. But for me, all that exposure humanised them, so they felt less like monstrous ids, running around in dead bodies, with weird aspirations to keep them organised, and more like evil psychopaths. Like low, but stable humanity vampires in the Circle of the Crone or Lancea et Sanctum. Of course, humans are capable of horrific things, but that's missing out the potential of monsters*. It even gave me food for thought about the divide between one's morality and conscience, which, given my religious beliefs at time, was quite significant to me. And still very human. The ideal that appealed to me in V5 isn't a person anymore and it's difficult to write characters that aren't people.

              What's more, I think this is a problem for Beast. To me, they look like humans who compulsively need to terrorise people, and incidentally have super powers that put some of the other splats to shame. The fluff about Makara evokes images of leviathans like giant cephalopods, but what makes them scary, besides their size, which is more Anakim's thing, is how distant they are from humanity. But what are you going to do if you spend the whole game in an abyss? I suppose that like the V:tR Nosferatu and the Lasombra, the appeal is that they are of this abyss, perhaps drawn to it, but in the meantime, they still hang out with people.

              *That said, is one of the themes Beast that it isn't worth categorising between people and monsters? I suppose that Geralt in The Witcher says something like this, but its monsters are like those of W:tF and C:tL.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                Enablers tho. They even can be explicitly about transgressions against bad beliefs and there are already rules for changing the collective unconscious, becoming a living myth, and so forth.
                I'll acknowledge hadn't looked at the player's guide too closely despite having it. I remember feeling somewhat offput by beast after the corebook, and I liked conquering heroes but everything seemed a bit too personal with the way fear was treated as a source of influence, enablers I skimmed but still felt that they seemed treacherous rather than inspiring in the sense I was referring to, however I do notice alot of people stating that player's guide was a major refocus for the series so maybe I should give it a more thorough look.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post

                  I'll acknowledge hadn't looked at the player's guide too closely despite having it. I remember feeling somewhat offput by beast after the corebook, and I liked conquering heroes but everything seemed a bit too personal with the way fear was treated as a source of influence, enablers I skimmed but still felt that they seemed treacherous rather than inspiring in the sense I was referring to, however I do notice alot of people stating that player's guide was a major refocus for the series so maybe I should give it a more thorough look.
                  you won't regret it, as many who've read it can promise!

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                  • #24
                    New thought that came up. This refocus might require a rewrite of their powers. If they are subtle tempers, they need powers that are less direct than the current Nightmares, Atavisms, Kinship Merits and Birthrights.


                    A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                      New thought that came up. This refocus might require a rewrite of their powers. If they are subtle tempers, they need powers that are less direct than the current Nightmares, Atavisms, Kinship Merits and Birthrights.
                      What are the benefits, in your mind, to reducing the number of character concepts in Beast in this fashion, by making them all Enablers?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Deinos View Post

                        What are the benefits, in your mind, to reducing the number of character concepts in Beast in this fashion, by making them all Enablers?
                        I apologize for being unclear. The powers Beasts currently have are my favorite part of the book. I don't want to replace them, i just want to add newer and more subtle powers that facilitate the less brute force (both physical, magical and social) approach that this thread is positing as an addition.

                        Fanmade lair traits like Wondrous and Atavisms like Alien Allure and Mimir's Wisdom are a good start.You can still have your terrifying juggernaut Anakim, but a social Beast has more subtle ways to influence people without the brute force mind control of most Nightmares. Stuff that could reasonably argue as only cultivating what was already in their mind, not just forcing transgression out of nowhere.

                        Tl;Dr : Add on and refocus, not replace
                        Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 04-07-2019, 01:51 PM.


                        A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                          The ideal that appealed to me in V5 isn't a person anymore and it's difficult to write characters that aren't people.
                          Of course they're going to be people -- until they lose language and tool use.

                          If you houserule beasts to have to be these awful, constant bastards, then yeah, the result is that they're going to be boring. That's why I don't get people who want ABAB (All Beasts Are Bastards). They sit at a nice, comfy level of moral ambiguity; you occasionally have to push someone's buttons, but you don't have to go so far as say, draining their will like a changeling, draining their health like a vampire, or inflicting breaking points.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Deinos View Post

                            Of course they're going to be people -- until they lose language and tool use.

                            If you houserule beasts to have to be these awful, constant bastards, then yeah, the result is that they're going to be boring. That's why I don't get people who want ABAB (All Beasts Are Bastards). They sit at a nice, comfy level of moral ambiguity; you occasionally have to push someone's buttons, but you don't have to go so far as say, draining their will like a changeling, draining their health like a vampire, or inflicting breaking points.
                            actually that's exactly what you for Lair regarding breaking points. otherwise I agree

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                              actually that's exactly what you for Lair regarding breaking points. otherwise I agree
                              Soul shock requires an ES Vampires are significantly more likely to kill someone involuntarily than a beast is to scuff up their psyche with a nightmare. And I don't see anything suggesting its a breaking point.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Deinos View Post

                                Soul shock requires an ES Vampires are significantly more likely to kill someone involuntarily than a beast is to scuff up their psyche with a nightmare. And I don't see anything suggesting its a breaking point.
                                my bad, just mistook it for a needed requirement

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