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Some thoughts on how I'd like to see Beast

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  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post


    But Beasts can already do this. All of it. What you're proposing would take all the teeth and consequences out of these acts. They would basically become superheroes; if there is no reason to do bad things and in fact only punishment, then where is the ..... conflict? What I and many others are trying to get you to understand is Beast does exactly what you're asking for if you choose to play it that way.
    this guy is right you know Darkfoxdev? this is the entire point of Lessons and I cant add on because Eternal Darkness explained it perfectly.

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  • Eternal Darkness
    replied
    Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
    Maybe I haven't quite communicated effectively. My idea is that beasts, instead of JUST focusing on the fears of an individual, could focus on the fears of a society as a whole, tying the idea of otherness into the idea of promoting subversion and a lack on security into the norms of people, not just as one person but as a group. They can act as bringers of change when in the right light, but also agents of chaos, fear, disorder and corruption (hence one of my examples being encouraging an uratha to become a pale hound, while another could be convincing abused spouses to leave their abuser), I feel that removing the idea of your horror running off to hurt people without your consent, instead everything you do is your own choice, and you suffer from an alienation to others similar to disquiet, where over time those who meet you that aren't directly being affected by you come how to you with hatred and disgust.

    Everything a beast does currently would fall under this, scaring people, threatening them, threatening to expose them, but it would also allow you to take on the idea of dark mentor more effectively.
    This would also allow you to begin functioning in a role where you would begin affecting society in a broader sense, being able to become an urban legend, a representative of collective fears, instead of just one person's. overtime you could evolve into a myth, both as a creature to be feared, but also an icon of discord and subversion.

    But Beasts can already do this. All of it. What you're proposing would take all the teeth and consequences out of these acts. They would basically become superheroes; if there is no reason to do bad things and in fact only punishment, then where is the ..... conflict? What I and many others are trying to get you to understand is Beast does exactly what you're asking for if you choose to play it that way.

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  • Deinos
    replied
    Enablers tho. They even can be explicitly about transgressions against bad beliefs and there are already rules for changing the collective unconscious, becoming a living myth, and so forth.

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  • Darkfoxdev
    replied
    Maybe I haven't quite communicated effectively. My idea is that beasts, instead of JUST focusing on the fears of an individual, could focus on the fears of a society as a whole, tying the idea of otherness into the idea of promoting subversion and a lack on security into the norms of people, not just as one person but as a group. They can act as bringers of change when in the right light, but also agents of chaos, fear, disorder and corruption (hence one of my examples being encouraging an uratha to become a pale hound, while another could be convincing abused spouses to leave their abuser), I feel that removing the idea of your horror running off to hurt people without your consent, instead everything you do is your own choice, and you suffer from an alienation to others similar to disquiet, where over time those who meet you that aren't directly being affected by you come how to you with hatred and disgust.

    Everything a beast does currently would fall under this, scaring people, threatening them, threatening to expose them, but it would also allow you to take on the idea of dark mentor more effectively.
    This would also allow you to begin functioning in a role where you would begin affecting society in a broader sense, being able to become an urban legend, a representative of collective fears, instead of just one person's. overtime you could evolve into a myth, both as a creature to be feared, but also an icon of discord and subversion.
    Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 04-06-2019, 02:25 AM.

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  • Deinos
    replied
    Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
    My statement of wanting to draw on changeling the dreaming is for just that, getting beasts out of a rut, they are limited in ways alot of the other games are not. They must play the sole role as terrorizing antagonist, and only terrorizing antagonist, no other form of villian.
    I dunno, I went to beasts in part due to having room for greater variety than vampires, and for generally striking me as less awful than vampires. Any splat you don't like is going to come off as limited. Afterall, vampires are limited to only being negative and destructive towards humans, and the game lectures you on how trying to be anything but that is doomed to fail.

    Beasts, on the other hand, can range the gamut of morality and the game doesn't sneer at you for being a good person, being a positive influence on people's lives, etc. Just as morality and society wise you can do more with beasts than "abusive parasite living in a world of zero sum crapsack politics," they can, right from chargen, roam any plane of existence and be at nearly any power level.

    There is also an entire hunger about transgression, enablers.

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  • Eternal Darkness
    replied
    Okay. Good luck.

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  • Darkfoxdev
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post


    I won't argue opinion and preference, but the idea that the only good horror is subtle horror or that any amount of it 'gets old' is very, very subjective. Why does it need to be 'impactful'? Why does there have to be some deep meaning? There are many types of horror and very few characters can't touch on more than one, especially Beasts who are by their nature adept at hitting on many different flavors of horror. It's worth noting that when you play as a Beast you are also partly playing a thriller. Examining your monstrousness in comparison to the rest of the world is purely up to you and the storyteller, and it is no harder - and arguably a good deal easier - than with any other character, including an ordinary mortal.

    Now, you keep mentioning Horror 'getting dull' and i have to ask what your definition of horror is and how you expect it to play out in an actual game. As i said earlier, horror takes many forms and nonstop villainy, blood and gore and overt cruel antagonism toward others are not its only forms; just a few of the most obvious ones. And even if you were right, how is making Beast more like something else supposed to help that? You can already use the fear and horror angles as much or as little as you please, zoom out of that part and zoom in on something else. I do it all the time. So what are we actually trying to accomplish, here? Your OP didn't actually help me comprehend aside from 'Transgression over fear' (There's a Hunger for that, by the way - and it works nicely for Beasts who want to focus on that specific brand of Horror). The rest sounds like standard 'Beasts should totally not have to hurt anyone in any way ever' that every single person who didn't really like Beast for what it is has tried for years now to sell on this very forum. So how is your idea any different? Sell me. Because so far, it looks like more of the same. It's not even the first time we've specifically heard 'Beast should be more like Dreaming'.
    You are aware that Kargle18846 is a different person from myself and has only made 1 post on this thread?

    To address your confusion; my point was that Beast's could add to the roles of mythic antagonists they take on by being able to encompass more situations that just fear, or to expand the situations they should be working towards beyond scaring people. I compared Beasts to the fundemental ideas of changeling (being a mythic dream creature in a human vessel that gains power from myths and emotions), particularly that they are specifically the Thallain, creatures of primordial nightmare born from a time when fear was humanity's most common driving force. My argument was that drawing on more antagonist myths (such as tempter, and keeper of secrets) with a focus on being a threat to societal norms, safety and welfare over individual safety and welfare. While these ideas (secrets and transgression both being hungers) they are rooted in the idea that they should inspire fear, an almost inherantly abusive state, which limits the roles they can play in mortal lives and undermines the idea of acting as a mentor the game fiction espouses.

    On Kargle's comment; Kargle is correct that your statements were contradictory, in your first you endorsed beast as a game where charaters are truly monsters and having to deal with that (much like requiem which Beast has very similar themes to), and in your second you make the point that in many of the games you've run the players have been actively heroic or at least pragmatic. My point is that by focusing on beast as a subversive, as well as terrifying force, you enable this and other forms of play better.
    You are also being a bit rude, please calm down, I'm as entitled to my opinion on my problems with the game as anyone and I said at the start I wasn't expecting everyone who was a fan of Beast to like it. This was based on my feelings as someone who was a fan of many of the worlds and chronicles of darkness, and reconciling why the game holds only mixed appeal for me and what would increase that appeal to me and those who share my tastes. I don't think Beast is a bad game, just a narrow one that doesnt quite match it's mechanics to its intentions.
    Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 04-05-2019, 07:01 PM.

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  • Eternal Darkness
    replied
    Originally posted by Kargle18446 View Post

    Just wanted to say i think you make some very good points, but your second post seems a bit contradictory to your first. Characters only feel monsterous when they're compared with the rest of the world, sure oWoD had some more, overt, horror aspects, but if you overplay them they just dull themselves down.

    I think the fact CoD plays more to the comparison between being a monster and being human makes the times when some horrific happen all the more impactful. Your Slasher character sounds like a really cool and interesting character but it's the fact that he's knows that being a Slasher is wrong that gives someone like that depth.

    I won't argue opinion and preference, but the idea that the only good horror is subtle horror or that any amount of it 'gets old' is very, very subjective. Why does it need to be 'impactful'? Why does there have to be some deep meaning? There are many types of horror and very few characters can't touch on more than one, especially Beasts who are by their nature adept at hitting on many different flavors of horror. It's worth noting that when you play as a Beast you are also partly playing a thriller. Examining your monstrousness in comparison to the rest of the world is purely up to you and the storyteller, and it is no harder - and arguably a good deal easier - than with any other character, including an ordinary mortal.

    Now, you keep mentioning Horror 'getting dull' and i have to ask what your definition of horror is and how you expect it to play out in an actual game. As i said earlier, horror takes many forms and nonstop villainy, blood and gore and overt cruel antagonism toward others are not its only forms; just a few of the most obvious ones. And even if you were right, how is making Beast more like something else supposed to help that? You can already use the fear and horror angles as much or as little as you please, zoom out of that part and zoom in on something else. I do it all the time. So what are we actually trying to accomplish, here? Your OP didn't actually help me comprehend aside from 'Transgression over fear' (There's a Hunger for that, by the way - and it works nicely for Beasts who want to focus on that specific brand of Horror). The rest sounds like standard 'Beasts should totally not have to hurt anyone in any way ever' that every single person who didn't really like Beast for what it is has tried for years now to sell on this very forum. So how is your idea any different? Sell me. Because so far, it looks like more of the same. It's not even the first time we've specifically heard 'Beast should be more like Dreaming'.
    Last edited by Eternal Darkness; 04-05-2019, 04:37 PM.

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  • Kargle18446
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post


    I don't see any way at all in which Beasts are more limited than other character types. Having played close to a dozen now, and run for/played with many more, most of them have been downright heroic or at least just pragmatic and self-serving. They were human, nuanced characters; people who happened to be Beasts and sometimes monsters. I think the problem you and many others are having is that you focus on the monstrousness as the be-all, end-all of the character and utterly downplay any and all humanity. Even real-life villains, killers and generally horrible people don't spend every moment thinking of new ways to do and be horrible. Heck, most people - even the ones we'd all consider monstrous - will have some redeeming quality to someone.

    Horror films are a bad example anyway, because a horror film isn't about the monster. It's about the protagonists, with everything shown from the protagonists perspective and the monster or killer rarely ever gets seen outside its role as the antagonist. We don't see the inner monologues of Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers. We don't get any background on Freddy Krueger that tells us why he became the reprehensible person he ended up being. We know nothing about them but what the people out to stop them (Heroes) tell us in the plot exposition.

    So, i guess what i'm saying is: Beast is fine. The problem with lack of nuance isn't a problem; rather, it's peoples' lack of imagination and inability to step outside their own perspective that needs fixing.


    Edit: As a matter of fact, i've played a lot of traditionally villainous and/or monstrous character types, and found the major difference is not in motivation or even morality, as much as it is in circumstance. But that probably means very little, being anecdotal - i'm the guy who played a Slasher that was aware of just how problematic his nature was and was actively getting therapy...but still couldn't just stop being a Slasher just because he wanted to. Because mental illness doesn't work that way.
    Just wanted to say i think you make some very good points, but your second post seems a bit contradictory to your first. Characters only feel monsterous when they're compared with the rest of the world, sure oWoD had some more, overt, horror aspects, but if you overplay them they just dull themselves down.

    I think the fact CoD plays more to the comparison between being a monster and being human makes the times when some horrific happen all the more impactful. Your Slasher character sounds like a really cool and interesting character but it's the fact that he's knows that being a Slasher is wrong that gives someone like that depth.

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  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    basically it would give the local population a Legend In their collective sub concious. not only would this spread the influence of your horror in the story sense, but also give rise to cults.

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  • Eternal Darkness
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

    well that is true, but allow me to be more specific. I would like mechanics (and I suppose by extension storyhooks) that allow you to explore Primordial dream and have your horror actually begin to manifest into the nightmares of humanity that show its legend (and how your Life has put nuance into its story). I think this would also allow more varied interactions with Heroes.

    I will be going to bed, but will reply if you send a reply back

    That sounds interesting, but how would it manifest in a practical sense, and what would it do? Knowing that would be very helpful in coming up with good ideas to put forth as regards how to do that.

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  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post


    This is actually more easily accomplished via the Bright Dream. Rules for doing so are in the BPG, pg. 154-155. Just travel into the bright dream's reflection of a place and start doing things to change perceptions there same as you would anywhere else, and with enough effort and good rolls peoples' beliefs in that area will begin to shift.
    well that is true, but allow me to be more specific. I would like mechanics (and I suppose by extension storyhooks) that allow you to explore Primordial dream and have your horror actually begin to manifest into the nightmares of humanity that show its legend (and how your Life has put nuance into its story). I think this would also allow more varied interactions with Heroes.

    I will be going to bed, but will reply if you send a reply back

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  • Eternal Darkness
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    really I just want more mechanics on the primordial dream and using it to spread your Horror into the sub concious of humanity

    This is actually more easily accomplished via the Bright Dream. Rules for doing so are in the BPG, pg. 154-155. Just travel into the bright dream's reflection of a place and start doing things to change perceptions there same as you would anywhere else, and with enough effort and good rolls peoples' beliefs in that area will begin to shift.

    Leave a comment:


  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    really I just want more mechanics on the primordial dream and using it to spread your Horror into the sub concious of humanity

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  • inversemot
    replied
    I was actually thinking something along the lines of expanding what Beast is capable of. Though I was thinking more about the types of dreams that stay with you when you wake. So sorrow, anger, confusion, jealousy, and fear. The idea being to give a little more substance to the "teaching lessons" ideology by giving them grounds to claim they are reminding you that you are an animal with instincts and emotions. Those aren't wrong and abandoning them in favor of logic does not improve your life, it just leads to sociopathic corporatocracy.

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