Beast, CHangeling's and other things.

[Penguinbowler]

I have several question's about Best and other gamelines, changeling in particular. I know the nitty gritty of what the difference between a beast and a changeling is, but not so much what types of creatures could qualify as each, a Gorgon could be a venombite or a ugallan, a cyclops a Anakim or Ogre, and at least in changeling 1st edition, Sphinx's had an entire kith devoted to them. Are the Lost able to be anything the Begotten are?

My second question is, outside of game mechanics, why would most others in the darkness like and trust them. I would imagine they would mess with the spiritual landscape a ton, allowing fear and despair spirits to thrive, which would piss off any nearby werewolf packs, and since they seem to revel in their inhumanity, why would a Promethean, who's goal is to become human, like them? WHile i'm not sure this is canon, Beast remind me a lot of the true fae, which i doubt the changeling's would enjoy, but maybe some scarecrow minister's could find reason's to accept them, even if the entire freehold likely won't. I also fail to see why Sin Eaters would like them all to much, but unless they are actively killing people or messing with Avernian Gates, i don't think they would go after them. My biggest issue with mummies is the fact they may wreck their lifeweb that helps with their resurrections. Vampires and Mages i feel might be the most ok with them, but even then, more Moral Mages might not enjoy their feeding habits anymore they they would enjoy a vampires (This i feel also goes with changelings and promethians). Ironicly, if they weren't given rules for hating each other, i feel demon's might be the most willing to accept a beast.

Not trying to fight or anything, but could someone give me in universe reasons why most other's in the Chronicles of Darkness would like and trust them?

[Tessie]

I understand that. it does not, however, state what happens when given immunity from such a trait

I think in the given example of vampires still catching fire in sunlight it's about the specific trait, not any other traits that may share the same source. A vampire could theoretically be protected from Bane damage from the sun if the Lair Trait is "the mystical properties of sunlight" rather than just "blinding brightness". Only problem is that I don't think any Beast will have that as a Lair Trait unless shenanigans are abrewing.

[Primordial newcomer]

You can't actually give immunity to a Lair Trait to things that aren't Beasts. You can protect them from the Lair Trait, but that means protecting them from the Lair Trait, not making them immune to the thing that the Trait is.

The Lair not applying the effects of Blinding Light to a visitor is accomplished by their not being subjected to the thing that the Blinding Light Trait represents, which is a different thing from their being able to be subjected to that stimulus and not react accordingly. The book is pretty clear that the effects of the Lair are real even though they're part of a dream-world.

ahh ok, I'll admit I misremembered immunity from protection. thanks for clearing that up and my apologies

[Satchel]

I understand that. it does not, however, state what happens when given immunity from such a trait

You can't actually give immunity to a Lair Trait to things that aren't Beasts. You can protect them from the Lair Trait, but that means protecting them from the Lair Trait, not making them immune to the thing that the Trait is.

The Lair not applying the effects of Blinding Light to a visitor is accomplished by their not being subjected to the thing that the Blinding Light Trait represents, which is a different thing from their being able to be subjected to that stimulus and not react accordingly. The book is pretty clear that the effects of the Lair are real even though they're part of a dream-world.

[Primordial newcomer]

There's a sidebar on page 103 that explicitly uses a Trait representing blinding desert sunlight causing a vampire to burst into flames as an example of Traits having greater or unique effects on other supernatural beings based on their own weaknesses.

I understand that. it does not, however, state what happens when given immunity from such a trait

[Satchel]

the negation from lair traits is true in the facet that it blocks it from happening to them. And I cant say I know for sure how possible sunlight caused traits such as Bright would affect vampires that are given immunity. but I can say that neither of us are for sure on the matter, and while it's more likely that I'm wrong considering the circumstances, I'd leave it for a more "official" person to clarify on this issue

There's a sidebar on page 103 that explicitly uses a Trait representing blinding desert sunlight causing a vampire to burst into flames as an example of Traits having greater or unique effects on other supernatural beings based on their own weaknesses.

[Primordial newcomer]

And none of the Tilts Lair Traits apply are "this is sunlight."

It follows nightmare logic. The books put up the idea that Beasts and their kin are kin because they're similar, not because the Begotten can plug the holes in their relatives' physicality in ways that disregard thematics.

It's also important to note that the ability to have Lair Traits active and not harm your guests is framed as protecting them from the Tilts, not making them immune to the Tilts, which is a thing that can only be done for other Beasts. You can manifest convenient patches of shade for your vampire friend in your Lair so they don't disintegrate, but they're still going to take damage if they spend long enough in the sunlight and get no special resistance to frenzy from exposure to it.

the negation from lair traits is true in the facet that it blocks it from happening to them. And I cant say I know for sure how possible sunlight caused traits such as Bright would affect vampires that are given immunity. but I can say that neither of us are for sure on the matter, and while it's more likely that I'm wrong considering the circumstances, I'd leave it for a more "official" person to clarify on this issue

[Satchel]

I assume it would work that way. while yes, it is functionally sunlight, a beast makes kin immune to lair traits if he wants.

And none of the Tilts Lair Traits apply are "this is sunlight."

it still follows dream logic and the books never put up an exception

It follows nightmare logic. The books put up the idea that Beasts and their kin are kin because they're similar, not because the Begotten can plug the holes in their relatives' physicality in ways that disregard thematics.

It's also important to note that the ability to have Lair Traits active and not harm your guests is framed as protecting them from the Tilts, not making them immune to the Tilts, which is a thing that can only be done for other Beasts. You can manifest convenient patches of shade for your vampire friend in your Lair so they don't disintegrate, but they're still going to take damage if they spend long enough in the sunlight and get no special resistance to frenzy from exposure to it.

[Primordial newcomer]

I don't know that it works that way; being able to protect guests from Lair Traits doesn't make the manifestations of those Traits stop being the things that they are.

I assume it would work that way. while yes, it is functionally sunlight, a beast makes kin immune to lair traits if he wants. it still follows dream logic and the books never put up an exception

[Satchel]

and speaking of beauty, while unnatural, imagine a vampire finally being able to see the sun again in a beast's lair through kinship immunity

I don't know that it works that way; being able to protect guests from Lair Traits doesn't make the manifestations of those Traits stop being the things that they are.

[Primordial newcomer]

That's a good idea.

Anyways, back on point, one thing that can probably be played with more in future books of Beasts is that "terrible beauty" that the perspective of Beast offers-it's a brutal, harsh, and toothy world they expose, even with lessons, but on the other hand, hearth and home and the stark beauty of a world after the hurricane.

I think a book based around kinship would be great (both to show a side of terrible beauty as you have said, and to show a side as just plain monstrous)

and speaking of beauty, while unnatural, imagine a vampire finally being able to see the sun again in a beast's lair through kinship immunity

[ArcaneArts]

Separate thread's up.

That's a good idea.

Anyways, back on point, one thing that can probably be played with more in future books of Beasts is that "terrible beauty" that the perspective of Beast offers-it's a brutal, harsh, and toothy world they expose, even with lessons, but on the other hand, hearth and home and the stark beauty of a world after the hurricane.

[tasti man LH]

Actually, I think I'll go ahead and just make a separate thread on the subject.

Separate thread's up.

[Tessie]

Ew, this doesn't bode well. I fear that means a Beast 2e, when it finally does happen, might get completely revised into something...not like the Beast i love at all in order to distance it from an unpleasant individual and appease the aggrieved. I hope that isn't the case, as softening the edges on Beast to make it more like the other games would likely kill its unique identity if it's done poorly. Ah well, nothing stopping me from ignoring it like I do most OPP shenanigans if it's terribad.

That's a very pessimistic outlook for something that is many, many years away and won't happen until long after this has stopped affecting Beast as a gameline. If Beast 2e gets fucked it'll be because of future events or changes to the company or industry that are still relevant at that time.

[tasti man LH]

Actually, I think I'll go ahead and just make a separate thread on the subject.