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To Kneel Before the Maw-Arcane Frameworks Beast Societies

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  • To Kneel Before the Maw-Arcane Frameworks Beast Societies

    "A god is just a monster you kneel to."
    -Michael Voght, Fall of Gods


    Okay, so one of the more persistent complaints about Beast has always been the lack of societies, a "common feature" of Chronicles game that, without the support of, makes Beasts feel aimless, unsupported, too heavily reliant upon outside support. People want them some kingdoms of monsters, and, okay, I get it, that just sounds cool

    But by and large, my opinion on this has been that it's bollocks, that Hungers tend to cause too much of a focus on Beast society to fall apart, that Beasts are more motivated by their own transcendence, etc., etc.-I'm hazarding most of you have at least a passing familiarity with my dialogue on the subject. This thread is...not explicitly about that, more me acknowledging that since the game has been played concerning Seekers of the Dark Mother and Cults of the Incarnates, and since it's a recurring subject of topic, it's time I stop saying "Fuck that shit" and start actually looking at what it would be like.

    This is not to say that people are going to like my take away here. I'm not here to posit societies of the Begotten that satisfy people's desires, rather layout what I think are the main points of what I think said societies would look like if you tried to grow them out of Beast organically and address some of the asides from such. I'm also not here to provide systems or write-ups about such societies-I'm more interested in the principles of the things, what are the things that must be answered in making such an attempt. To this end, I've got about Five Principles upon which I think form the shape of what Beast Societies look like, starting with:

    As Within, So Without-Beast Societies Follow the Transcendence of Particular Beasts, Therefore Beast Societies are Extended Broods

    Supernatural communities in Chronicles tend to ostensibly, and badly, provide a support system and contextualization for the monstrosity and horrors that any of it's members encounter, largely making it okay to be a monster and okay to have suffered those horrors. Covenants provide an answer for what it means to be a monster and therefore get you to lean into in a variety of ways, Courts and Freeholds provide emotional and psychospiritual support but also strive to create a safe space to keep the fairy side in their lives and thereby also keep them very fae, Guilds reinforce the doctrines and works of Irem and keep the Arisen prioritized on that than anything personal or in the moment of reality they dwell in, so on and so forth. At their hearts, they tend to be coping mechanisms for monsters in their way, a means of working out the conflicts of being a monster while directing them towards goals and ambitions, means of indulgence and relief, and against the various enemies that come their way.

    Beasts don't need that shit. They have it figured out. They came to terms with that with the Devouring. The persona of their human soul was ingested and incorporated into their shadow, the Horror, and they have emerged whole and complete. Every Beast knows what they do others and have come out the other side having accepted it anyways. These fuckers know who they are, and they are monsters. They've dived into the Chronicles world's darkness and have found it to be home. There's no dissonance here. They have actualized, they know who they are and what they want. In a very real sense, most Beasts on most fronts have become that which they could be, at least on big core things-details may remain, but a Beast is who they are if those get striped away.

    So with that out of the way, the pursuit of Beasts then is not the standard reconciliation of internal horror that most of the monsters deal with, but rather the expression of the end they arrived at. It is no longer enough to be whole within the self, but that the self must be made manifest beyond the self. The world made over in their image. For Beasts, that's actually literally what their Lair is-their presence within the extended Primordial Dream, each dot an extension of their real-estate on the psychospiritual landscape of humanity. Every Chamber, Every Feeding, Every Triumph is carved out of humanity and swallowed into the wholeness of the Beast.

    Broods may form because of the familial instincts of Beasts, but they tend to persist when the Legends pursued have alignment with each other, where they feed into each other and have the fulfillment of one Hunger facilitate the growth of the wider story at work rather than present a conflict to it. The more successful such Legends are at building Lair, the more space there becomes at filling in the niches in an ever expanding mythology that invites questions into the horror story and nightmare world being born. To this end, Beast Societies therefore form around the cults of the more successful and personally-structured Beasts.

    You can actually see this principle at work with the societies we already have. Incarnates have fulfilled their transcendence, having so permanently become a feature in the heart of humanity as to be flesh and blood, and therefore cults form around them following the wake of their success, which tends to feed around in a controlled food web of power and influence. The Dark Mother herself is, of course, the absolute embodiment of this principle. Legend must build upon Legend, Hungers must not starve each other, and Mythologies are only as strong as their Pantheons.

    So since basically Beast Societies are extended cults of personality, it should surprise no one that...

    Wherever You Go, There You Are-Beast Societies Hew Local rather than Global, Temporal rather than Eternal

    Again, the goal of every Beast is to Transcend Self, and therefore the inherent ground to seed, water, and sprout from is always and forever themselves, when they are, where they stand. It expands outward from there. In more practical terms, it's hard to create a widespread dread of yourself if only one or two people know about you in various cities around the globe. A very ambitious Beast might try to craft a worldwide Legend, to be sure, and as the world shrinks with improvements in communications and transportation, it's not impossible for a Beast to fail always and forever at such a task-hell, look at the impact of any shooter you like-but with a dwindling return on impact as shock becomes cheap and common, with a lack of immediacy, it's easier to foster the intimacy of horror where you are. Easier too, then, to also facilitate the addition of other Legends to strengthen your own when you have a society where everyone's on the same page, and the closer people are to each other, the easier it is for them to check each other's scripts.

    This fits two other images of Beast quite nicely, in relation to the practical element of it. One, monsters classically tend to be more isolated in encounter than mythologically spread out. Sure. Fenrir's mouth may scrape the heavens and earth, but you're gonna chat with him on the island he was imprisoned upon as the fountainhead of the River Anticipation, and while Jormungandr's body wraps around the whole of the world, any conversation with him is gonna be where he head is at. Dragons may have empires, but they start at the mountain rather than all around, and the Fomorians ruled Ireland, not Greece and Japan too.

    Secondly, it fits the idea of home. As the Beast expands themselves outward, it still hew close, the edges keeping cozy for those who find place in the Beast's story. Homes don't tend to be big, grand things in people heads, but rather comfortable and close by. Sure, the Lair may drip and have an uncomfortable horizon, but those who come in tend to focus on their closeness to family rather than those things.

    Anyways, back to the other side of things-time. Beast Societies are unlikely to be ancient. Oh, sure, the family element is there, and elements definitely continue travelling down the tree, but Lair is a Present Thing. Stories gain their power through their retelling, but each retelling that gets away from the original runs more risk of variation, subversion, deconstruction, alteration-it strays from being the coherent wholeness of Transcendence. Lair must be built in the here and now, regularly, to build and gain forward momentum, to become a staple in the soul of humanity. The consistents, the core of the Lair, the self of the Beast, must be perpetuated, and the functions of Beast Society largely leans towards this maintenance.

    But eventually, every story is going to change. You can't keep it straight forever, and that's assuming things go well. Eventually, time at least will get even the Incarnates, and that's assuming nothing else kills them, and also assumes that nothing shakes Myth or Legend soundly enough that the Lair loses ground. The Horror may reincarnate and gain from what remains, but a Beast lives on a clock, and their particular iteration of a Horror's ongoing story inevitably ends, and with that the foundations of Beast Society. Beast Societies are, honestly, Here and Now, not Then and There. They benefit from, and indeed are in pursuit of, presence.

    So, how do you keep things on track? What's the script? Well...

    We Will Find You Acting On Your Best Behavior-Lessons Guide the Society to the Ends of Their Story

    Yeah, I can hear you people already, settle down.

    Yes, I can see how this sounds like me dragging in my other pet peeves as conversations go- "Oh, people want to explore societies of Beasts that don't buy into the Lesson Bullshit and Arc doesn't like that, so of course he says it's a guiding principle. BOO!" I get it. BUT hear me out, because I have a comparison and a point.

    To this end, a question: what about pack aspirations for their territory?

    "Well, what about them?" I can hear you ask. Well, basically a pack of werewolves' aspirations for their territory is ultimately a statement of what they want their territory to be. Some will want their territory be a (mostly) peaceful, sleepy little suburb, some will want them to be money-making machines, others will want their territory to be a place of innovation and imagination. Often times, it won't start out completely like that, but in time they build it up to become that. They carve out the ....let's call them behaviors of a region that impede the goal, and foster the elements that encourage the growth and pursuit of the aspiration. After such work on their territory, if successful, they stand in a region that embodies their desires, that has been crafted into their vision, that has even learned to be what they want it to be.

    Guys. What is such a territory if not a region that has learned it's lesson?

    As we have established, territory, in the form of Lair, is hella important for a Beast, and any society of Beasts is going to be dedicated to the cultivation and pruning of that territory. The main difference is that for Beasts, it's the fears, thoughts, beliefs, and core identity of the people that form the landscape-and even that isn't actually all that different from what werewolves do, considering their work with conceptual and emotional spirits and resonances.

    In establishing that psycho-spiritual landscape for not only the leading elements of Society but everyone within it, the mythology gains it's doctrines and practices that reinforce the Lairs and keep them strong and present, and the establishment of such within individuals links those in the region by those practices and doctrines by people seeing, observing, and copying them. It becomes memetic, invasive, infectious. The Lair is there every time someone knows not to cross that lawn after eight, when people just know you had better not get handsy with the girls at this club if you know what's good for you, when the dealers know to leave a dish of coke for you out on their back step after a successful buy-and-sell. When people know the lessons, know what must be done to keep you you, and do them because of you, You Have Lair. This is is the sort of shit that builds Lair.

    And for maintaining a society of Beasts, a clear set of Lessons helps to keep everyone's Legends directed at building up each other's Lairs rather than knocking each others downs. It maintains the cohesion and freeflow of thought that unites those Legends into a seamless anthology of urban legends and childhood superstitions. By keeping the core of Lessons involved, a Society of Beasts ensures that everyone is on the path upward towards transcendence without getting in each other's way.

    And really, such is not surprising. You want to make your societies like everyone else, well then answer the questions of "What is the Iron Master's vow of 'Honor Your Territory in All Things" but a lesson in the keeping of your place, or the Free Council's decree of "Democracy Seeks the Truth" if not a lesson about the value of democracy, or the Aegis Kai Doru's tales of paradise lost if not a lesson about how werewolves and mages are assholes? And What use are those lessons if they do not spill out beyond the mere organizations and shape the world?" Have fun with that. Principles that guide any sort of organization that you can think of are nothing if not lessons they want you to learn.

    So, yeah. Lessons Guide Societies. I can't help you if you don't like that.

    It's My Red Star-Societies Exist In Relation to the Apex

    I don't have a whole huge thing on this one, but it strikes me that if the basic clay of Beast Societies stems first from the shared Hive of a Region, which is absolutely does and needs to be more involved with if it's going to end up as a thing that benefits a large number of Beasts, then it also stands to reason that Beast Societies inherently exist within the space between their Leading Beast and the Apex. The Apex shapes the Societies as surely as their Trait infects the Lairs of all within the Hive. It feels right to say that no Society could exist without accounting for some kind of response to the Apex, and without personal affectation. Think of it like an Apex 3rd Dot Merit Benefit in any Society's Status, if you like. Handy analogies include the relationship between the Orders of Mage and the Exarchs, or the Guilds of Mummy and the Judges, or the Courts of Changelings and the True Fae, I can go on-except that a Beast Society need not have an adversarial relationship with the Apex, but that these organizations must respond to the immediacy of effect the Apex has on the Primordial Dream in the area, therefore the Lair that all seek to foster within that Society.

    If your Society hosts the Apex, then hooray, not as many problems in that way, except that the majority of that society still exists within the divide between any remaining leaders and the Apex, and if the Apex is a lone leader, than it still stands within the next generation of Metaphysically Important People Within The Scheme of the Primordial Dream.

    I'll admit, I don't have this one fully fleshed out, but it resonates as Important so I wanted to make sure that's in here. I'll try and come back to it, but seriously, The Apex is Important For Any Beast Society.

    Dream Beneath My Wings-Beast Societies should be Viable, if Ugly, Alternatives to Other's Societies

    Beast is a crossover game, and every Beast is a home for the monsters of other lines to come to. Any Society of Beasts, therefore, should be able to build and enrich itself by fostering their family under their auspices, no matter who they are.

    It's really just an extension of how Beast's benefit from tending to their families anyways. They draw Nightmares, Chambers, Merits from them, so why not incorporate their needs and talents into the Societies? Kinship Brood Traits, why the heck not? The Kingdom Of Monsters can only grow and improve. Such facets and how it's explored also expand your own Lair, giving it tenor and purchase, new avenues to escape and multiply down, and if such is built right, that can add to everyone in the Society. It's just common sense.

    I'm losing it, It's late, I gotta sleep, I gotta provide a closing.

    ANYWAYS.

    The Beginning is the End-So What Do Beast Societies Look Like?

    I know a lot of people, when they make this argument, are thinking of things more akin to Covenants and Orders and Courts, and I know why they do that. And I get it! I love the history and the mythology and the way that these things build and stack into grandiose structures over time and space and how that structures of power that you can tap into and use.

    But it doesn't work for Beast. The priorities of the Eldest hew much smaller, closer, and personal. The thing that would looks most like Beast Societies would be something akin to Krewe Archeytpe, a broad mythological framework that chases after certain forms of Transcendence, explore recurring themes, lessons, and icons, and fosters people within the inevitably shifting strata. Getting deeper into it yields that Beast Societies really look more like packs, krewes, agencies, and the on-field incarnations of Contagion factions, highly involved in the location and time that they are presented in. What's really needed to make a satisfactory Beast Society thing are the sort of tools found in The Pack and Geist: The Sin-Eaters Second Edition.

    And, really, at it's heart, it's rooted in the Brood, in the cadre of misfits gathered together in the mud and shade as a family. The most fundamental block of society for the Begotten is the one we got in the core.

    What Beast needs on the subject is not Five Write-Ups with Cool Names and Stuff, but tools that help people make the Homes that characters will go to at the end of the day, Stories that'll chart their transcendence forward and help them achieve it, and the Wisdom that binds it all together. And it needs its' readers to deal with the text as it is first, and find ways to work in what they want from there, rather shoving the two into each other unsuccessfully.

    There are two side subjects I didn't get to tonight, barring the want to return to my last two points and spruce them up, and those are "Okay, but seriously, what about ancient societies?"(Because I have thoughts and answers to this, suffice it to say I don't think there's no room for such but you gotta play it just right.) and "Okay, but what if I really don't want lessons?"(Because I both have considerations and rebuttals on that subject), but for now, I wanted to at least get this spelled out, to make as clear as I could with my time what I took away from the book and how I translated that into the desires requested.

    So, yeah. That's what I got so far.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-01-2019, 03:59 AM.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

  • #2
    If OP doesn't have you writing for the Storyteller's Guide a crime will have been committed. You actually get Beast and what people who love the game see and play it as and i sincerely hope someone recognizes that. If not, i wouldn't be upset about any fan work you did.

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    • #3
      Someone argue with me.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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      • #4
        I just dont understand why people decided beasts needed Y-Splat societies to the point someone had to reason why they dont. promethean does not have them, demon does not have them, why does beast need them all of a sudden?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
          I just dont understand why people decided beasts needed Y-Splat societies to the point someone had to reason why they dont. promethean does not have them, demon does not have them, why does beast need them all of a sudden?

          This, so much. While i'd prefer them to actually be good if we must have them, i have not once missed them and in fact find the fact that Beast doesn't emphasize dealing with a Beast-specific society is a strong selling point for me. If the next edition of Beast includes z-splats in the core, i'll suddenly HAVE to use them in any game i run or play in because people will expect it and tend to not take it well when an ST cuts out corebook stuff. That means a lot more focus on something i just don't care about, and doing extra work to downplay and minimize interaction with that part i don't want or care about. Beast just doesn't need a society other than supernatural societies as a whole, but i'd bet anything we'll get stuck with them anyway.
          Last edited by Eternal Darkness; 05-02-2019, 05:26 PM.

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          • #6
            But we do have 'Covenants Lite' by the Seekers of Dark Mother factions shown in Beast Players Guide. They maybe not very hard on specific mechanics ( that's why I do my fan homebrew for them ) but they are part of official Beast setting. And yes, they seems to start as 'local Apex of Hive going with his ideas over world'. somehow.


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            • #7
              the athaeneum is the only one so organized. if I remember, they actually decentralized when mages attacked the hive. personally it makes sense to me that the seekers show narrative advantages and not be that binding (and if merits, do so with care)

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              • #8
                You know, your mention of Pack Aspirations makes me realize that there could be interesting design space for mechanical incentives for Lessons; perhaps if a Beast feeds in a way cogent with the Lesson they are attempting to teach, they get either a Beat or a Willpower Point.

                More on-topic, it would seem that Beasts who share the Apex's Lair Trait act at an advantage within any given Hive; I feel like that might be an important consideration when thinking about local societies. For locations where the Apex is a Beast, then the Begotten will probably all make some effort to make sure they're on the Apex's good side, while for non-Beast Apexes, circumstance and Legend end up creating temporary hierarchies.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                  I just dont understand why people decided beasts needed Y-Splat societies to the point someone had to reason why they dont. promethean does not have them, demon does not have them, why does beast need them all of a sudden?
                  The two big catches to the subject is that a) Beast seems kind of aimless if you can't grab where starting point A and the myriad end points B through G, and a1) the text in the core is admittedly unclear on that, and a2) most people are trained to go seeking for that direction in organizations because they tend to do that, and also b) on the surface level Chronicles seems to be about these big structures that shape the landscape of the game plot. Covenants, Orders, Courts, Compacts and Conspiracies, and Guilds all convey a sense of world-spanning governance that says just as much about what you should do as give you a place, and it takes a particular angle of attack for the game make deviance feel correct.

                  Tribes are often lumped in with the above grouping even though they don't actually operate that way because they are still global unifiers that tie the Uratha on the street to the myth of Wolf. The largely nomadic Pilgramage makes it easy to frame Refinements as philosophies rather than structures. People tend to conflate Agencies and Agendas, so that tends to feels right. Deviants feel scattered and at ground enough to justify any lack of society they have-you don't want to be so big your Conspiracy can find you. Krewes are about the only thing that had similar problems to Broods, and that's because the 1st Edition mechanics for scaling Krewes were kinda weak and flimsy, and that game also had Archetypes confusing the subject. 2E Geist clarifies it, but you see some of the pushback against Krewe Archetypes because it doesn't fit people's ideas based on the original set.

                  Beast as a game is highly concerned with ideas about community, so it doesn't have the usual play divergence that makes it easy to disassociate from the norm, but (despite 2e Forsaken doing it's part with the emphasis on packs) it doesn't have the illusion of greater structure that Tribes presents, and therefore it feels like it's missing something.

                  Now this is all a patented misconception, of course-Chronicles, with a few notable exceptions (Mage Orders, Hunter Conspiracies, and Mummy Guilds), hews local more often than not-Covenents tend to be remolded in each location, with the Carthians and Circle actually being highly dependent on the politcal theories and occult religions put into practice in an area, Courts now tend to be very locally flavored (and admittedly a failing Lost 2E is that the prominence of the Seasonal Courts at the front diminishes that fact, but whatever), Compacts and Cells tend to be very local in design and feel, and even Conspiracies are starting to become locally based rather than consistently world spanning. Chronicles, particularly as 2E goes on, brings it's conflicts and organizations home, and with that tend to be more personalized rather than default. And as discussed in the original post, that approach really works for Beasts.

                  So I get why people want it, both on a larger scale and with the feeling of reading from Beast, particularly if people are dissatisfied with the elements that are there(and boy howdy are they ever), but it's a misconstruction that people think will solve a lot of their other grievances. The real solution to Beast is clarifying on how it's society already works.

                  But people keep asking, so attacking the question of what that would look like seemed more productive than shouting about how Beast doesn't need it, ergo.


                  Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                  • #10
                    I mean, there's not much to argue with, all you said is solid stuff which I find difficult to contest.

                    Can't help but to agree with most of it, if not for some differences here and there which matter little and are merely due you and I not being the exact same person with two different accounts.

                    I said myself that Beast shines when it's more personal and "small scale", at least for when it comes to Begotten social structures and their reach, and to play with my cards showing, the chapter about Beast societies is the one in the BPG I care relatively less. I mean, it makes sense for those group to exist and they're both written well, add to the setting, and respond to a demand from the audience, but I kinda feel they're more accessory than others think.

                    To each its own, naturally, but to me Brood & Family are where the real deal is. I don't know, maybe it's because I come from a culture that puts emphasis on it, but everytime I read people have trouble figuring how to find stories and conflicts in close family, it is just weird.

                    In a game where each character is a mythic monster, an individual who knows the weight of its actions and desires and a legend in the making, for me it has much more sense for Beast to develop in a way that gives importance to the people that know you and those of your Brood, rather than on what the decisions of a group of Begotten from a distant societies might mean to you. Who are they? You don't know them, they're distant and share no history with you. Uncle Apex is rarely seen, but you feel him. The Bishop of Chicago and a cabal from Boston don't matter, unless they come say hi and become part of the actual Family. So yeah, local & temporal, based on still living memories and shared stories.

                    Cults I'm more ok with. No problem with cults here, love them. Because the way Beast cults are made, they're still a personal matter: they're one Beast's extension, built upon faith in a monster that demands worship and aknowledgment. They might talk about "higher beings" but, in Beast, they're about the Begotten who make them and their cultist. People are not chanting their names all over the globe, but here and now.

                    Now, it makes sense for more complex societies to exist. They should be there. But they're, how can I say it, not that big of a deal? I love the Atheneum, can make an entire chronicle around it, but I can't really think it pulls the same weight of the Mysterium or the Ordo Dracul. They're more like clubs, local organizations that got bigger with time or, Nightmare Mom forgive me but it suits, big Facebook groups. They're a way for Beast to interact that would fall apart in a blink of an eye if not for the fact people (and Beasts) are social creatures.

                    Does it mean we got all we need in the core? No, not really. We all know there are improvements to make there, no doubt. There is room to say plenty more about Brood, Family and community, books of it. Just to give an example, I've toyed with ideas about Beast who have the same Hunger or come from the same Family exploring their shared bond as a way to help (or mess with) each other. Half older relatives, half bodishattva, with elements that have fun with Progenitor Beasts and more.

                    The real solution is, at least on paper, very simple: nothing less than explain more how Beast's intimate society works, why community, both human and supernatural, is important and how Beasts relate to it, and why the Brood is so ripe with narrative potential after all.

                    Stuff to write, stuff to say, stuff to hope for.

                    Was this reply useful for the discussion? Circumstances have been kicking me in the ribs for the last couple of weeks, I'm a little out of phase and I'm not sure all this made any sense or was just annoying chatter that amounts to nothing.
                    Last edited by Cinder; 05-02-2019, 06:27 PM.


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                    • #11
                      It sounds the tuning fork. Always glad to hear from ya, Cinder.

                      Also, I want to note something that I take as also really pointing towards the dissonance here:

                      As mentioned, we do have organizations now! A good number of them! Between the various Seekers of the Dark Mother and the Cults of the Incarnate, we do have societies. That's not my question/point.

                      What I find curious is the question "Why does it seem like the only one anyone can name is the Athaneum of the Dark Mother?"

                      (Answer: Societies don't answer the actual problem.)

                      EDIT: Cinder , actually, I gotta say, I love your post on a proper read and pretty much covers my real thoughts on the subject.
                      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-02-2019, 07:23 PM.


                      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        It sounds the tuning fork. Always glad to hear from ya, Cinder.

                        Also, I want to note something that I take as also really pointing towards the dissonance here:

                        As mentioned, we do have organizations now! A good number of them! Between the various Seekers of the Dark Mother and the Cults of the Incarnate, we do have societies. That's not my question/point.

                        What I find curious is the question "Why does it seem like the only one anyone can name is the Athaneum of the Dark Mother?"

                        (Answer: Societies don't answer the actual problem.)

                        EDIT: Cinder , actually, I gotta say, I love your post on a proper read and pretty much covers my real thoughts on the subject.
                        well the empusae are my favorite (and I have big sympathy for the guardians). anyway, thanks for answering my question earlier! I can understand why people dont see the conflict in the other gamelines that they see with beast now.

                        EDIT: when speaking of broods and family, one of my favorite sections in both the BPG and corebook is about how broods learn new abilities from each other and how family influences lair. like how Brood lairs take on environments that reflect the relationship between beasts (and how chambers can be effected by kinship) and beasts and horrors learn ew atavisms by interacting with each other (the dragon learning to swim, the giant falling apart into a swarm)
                        Last edited by Primordial newcomer; 05-02-2019, 08:36 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                          Someone argue with me.
                          It is hard to argue with you when I generally agrees with you?

                          I mean, I should argue you- I LOVE big, international organization with certain ideology, powers, mythology and so on. There is a reason I am an Hunter fan. I love conspiracies, covenants, orders and so on, and less interested in refinements, krewes and agendas. I mean, I really should say "Beast needs a decent Y splat to make it feel alive"

                          But I don't, probably because it doesn't. I mean, Beast is a very, very personal game. It revolves around you, everything revolves around you. It is about your darkest urges and inner monstrosity vs choosing your family and reaching outside the box. You have other Beasts you allow to your Lair, you have other monsters you make into your family. Beast touches everything, connects everything, loves everything- and it still manages to put itself in the center, to make it both inside and outside in the same time. And then you have the local Hive and Apex, which adds a level of complexity to your personal journey toward incarnating your myth and the story you want to tell. And then you have the Seekers as one more optional level above, something which reach out even further by some overall instinct which Begotten all around the world share- but it is still personal, because the search for the Dark Mother and the fear from her is imprinted into the very nature of the beasts.

                          In short, I should be against you, but I am not. I shouldn't agree with you, but I do. Beast is just so full of other things, of both from inside and outside, that it just doesn't have a room for something like Y-splats. I'm not saying that it can't have such splats, and that no one can think about some awesome sub-societies which would make me take back what I am saying, but looking at Beast right I just can't see the need for anything more complex, because beasts have society. They just don't have organizations, because organizations rise from common dreams and vision- and each Begotten is a dream by its own right.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            Someone argue with me.
                            Why? I agree with you.
                            The Hive is the closest thing to a society needed and even then it is only so far as the Apex and, maybe a competing brood or two. That is it

                            Maybe a cult or two because the Begotten sometimes have those.

                            Honestly, the people clamouring for Beast Societies are one of the reasons why I'm sad Tourists got cut from the BPG.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                              I'm sad Tourists got cut from the BPG.
                              What where Tourists planned for BPG?


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