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To Kneel Before the Maw-Arcane Frameworks Beast Societies

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  • #16
    what's a tourist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
      what's a tourist
      It's a kind of riceball.

      Originally posted by LostLight View Post
      It is hard to argue with you when I generally agrees with you?
      Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
      Why? I agree with you.
      Because I wanted discussion! And gnashing of teeth, admittedly.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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      • #18
        Agh, fine, let's play the Devil's Advocate in here..

        Beast should have societies, all in the terms of Y splat and the benefits it should grant. Sure, Hunger is cool and all, describing how you hunt and what satisfy your darkest needs, but it is a personal thing- very personal, saying the truth. So personal, that it may work better as a Z-splat: why there are only 5 (7, with the BPG)? Because you want them to be basic archetypes, when they could be much more integrated into the nature of the Horror itself? That's too artificial. Each Hunger should be developed personally, an expression of the Beast's inner monstrosity and coming from her own basic urges. If anything, Hunger should be an more flexible, open system, taking the same niche as Kiths, Keys, and Judges. More personal, less archetype, in short.

        Now, while Cults and Seeker factions may be cool and all, they are not good enough- practically any monster can have a cult revolving around it, and sometimes it is a part of their core identity. Vampires have it. Mages have it. Krewes are basically it. Mummies ARE it. Conspiracies, lodges, cabals- even humans can just make up personality cults without anything supernatural about them. Oh, sure, Beasts use those cults to express their primordial nature into the world- but each gameline has its own uses for cults, from having a simple way to feed up to having servants meant to guard your body through the ages and bring you back when you are dead beyond dead. Cults are always useful to someone- that's why they exist. In short, while cool, it is nothing unique to Beast and as such, can't serve as a Y splat on par of covenants, tribes and orders.

        As for the Seekers- it is an interesting direction, but not good enough. Yeah, I got it, some Begotten want to try and find out the truth about their Big Bad Dark Mother, and try to understand what she means to them. Cool, but not enough. First, the Seekers are not a core part of the Beast society- they more or less exist above it, around it and in between it. Chasing Dark Mama is not a core aspect of the life of the Begotten- it is something they may do if and when it aligns with their hunger, and most of them don't devout their very life into it. It exist outside of the Beast's personal journey, and is entirely optional to their lives. It has not real political power or agenda- just a group of people who explore the origin of the darkness in the different ways. Second, They don't seem to be very organized- sure, the Athaneum is more or less structured, but the most? Not really. Beasts seem to hang out together less out of common vision or ideology, and more out of some instinctive attraction to each other. They are bros because they are bros- and that miss something, like giving them a real reason to band together, work together, love together and kill together. And the Dark Mother is not good enough.

        Why, you ask? Well, because the Dark Mother is a god. She is the immortal image of eternal darkness, a monster above and beyond all others, the greatest Horror anyone can imagine. There should be, like one thousand conspiracy theories about who and what the Dark Mother is, and thousands of ways to express and experience her. If we are to simply use the Seekers as Y-splay, and as such make them into a core aspect of the Beast society, we practically say that the Dark Mother is the biggest thing in the life of the Begotten (which is true, but only to some level), and also declare that there are only certain ways you can express and search for her. You also change the entire focus of the game from something which is personal into a game of religious fanatics who do terrible things in the name of their goddess. You could say that this is what the game is also doing right now (which is why Lessons are bad thing and you should feel bad for loving them), but putting Seekers as core aspect would make it the only thing you care about, period.

        And Beasts need society. They are social creatures. They are drawn to each other, search after others like them, trying to create a Family of their choosing. Beast is also a game about dreams, and societies are the expression of dreams which are greater than their dreamers. Perhaps that should be the new Y-splat- Dreams, capital D (no puns in here). The Begotten make structures which bring those Dreams into the world, as the Horror donates its own, personal journey toward Incarnation into something bigger, something more. Dreams manifest (incarnate) themselves into the world through many different social structures- as the Beasts in a certain region band together under a common Dream, they draw it into the world and cause it to form- like an Horror for a full organization. Reminds me an homebrew I once wrote. Perhaps that's where it came from...

        Aaaaanyway, if we follow Dreams as Horrors parallel, perhaps there is a similar mechanic- a group of Begotten band together and summon a Dream in a region. The Dream, in turn, "devours" an existing organization- be it mundane, like a company or such, or supernatural, like a covenant or something. The Dream grants certain benefits and power those those Begotten which called upon it, and certain powers to those who become part of it. Dreams are also conjured spontaneously when Beasts bond together, or that new Beasts may join existing ones. Sure, it sounds somewhat like how Hives and Apexes work, but perhaps being an Apex would be about creating your own "Dream", while the Y-splat Dreams are intentional structure manifested when Beasts wish it into the world. Beasts of different Dreams may band together, but it could cause some dissonance among Dreams, giving strange and exotic effects (connecting things which shouldn't connect is a part of what Beast is, after all).

        That way, you still have your own personal journey and Legend and have something greater than you. Dreams are objective, separate structures existing in the Primordial Dream. Beasts call upon those Dreams by joining together under a common vision which the Dream in question represents. The Dream manifests into reality, devouring and existing organization and transform it into something which express its nature and what the Beasts wish to do. Dreams bleed into each other when Beasts of different Dreams join together. And when the Beasts get tired of a Dream, or they are all purged, the Dream is gone- returning to the Astral until it is called again to the world. And that way, Dreams may be manifested in a number of places in the same time, all under different faces and names, connecting Beasts from across the globe.. or turning them against each other. Who knows what Dreams has in mind, after all?

        .
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        I must say that while it all started as "let's take the opposite side and see what happens", I kinda like the end result. Kinda rough, of course- very rough, even- but maybe something to toy with for later time *shrugs*


        My Homebrew Signature

        "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

        I now blog in here

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          Someone argue with me.
          Are there any specific positions from your post that you feel iffy on? Any points you want challenged?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Paradim View Post
            Are there any specific positions from your post that you feel iffy on? Any points you want challenged?
            None, which I take initially as a sign that I missed something, so all of them.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

            Comment


            • #21
              This is something I've been meaning to respond to, but I've been working massive amounts of overtime lately and I just don't have enough brain power left over to articulate my thoughts as coherently as I want to. I'm going to try though.

              I have two main points of contention. Firstly, I don't really see Beasts as necessarily having come to grips with their monstrous nature during the Devouring. There's a reason that most of the Inheritances are metaphorically and sometimes literally burnout and suicide, a fractured self forever sacrificing one of its parts to preserve the other. Beast approaches its personal horror differently, but I think there's still a great deal of "what have I become, and am I willing to live like this?"

              The second is I think more a disagreement on semantics than on the fundamental assertion. Yes, you can absolutely frame philosophical assertions as lessons. That's not a wrong way of looking at it. It is not, however, what most people are going to think of when using the word lesson. Given the baggage many people have with abuse framed as "for your own good" there has to be a better way to frame Beasts choosing a central principle to guide their feedings. Yes, Beasts absolutely benefit metaphysically from having a story people can easily share, and stories are most easily made when there's a consistent, easily identifiable and describable pattern, instead of a bunch of barely related random events. Yes, that lends itself to at least simple lessons of "if X then Y" I don't think what people do or don't learn from it needs to be *the* lens applied to Feeding with a purpose and intentionally building a mythology greater than the sum of its parts though.

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              • #22
                I want to clarify I appreciate the response and intend to answer it, it's just I now have the flesh life demanding attention on several fronts, so it might be a bit.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  Someone argue with me.
                  My only problem with your reasoning is the Hungers are not as they are presented in the text a plot starter similar to the Agendas or the Refinements at least in my experience with players. They are too large for that. The big reason is the text doesn't embrace Beast's crossover nature enough IMHO and so the Hunger is easy to sate while acting a petty asshole and never entering real conflict with anyone;

                  It is debatable if Beasts need societies like presented in the Player's Guide but I would argue the Hunger have to be detailled to fill their role. My solution has been to narrow them down and tie them to mythological motif. You Hoard Forbidden Knowledge. You Prey on Predators. You Punish Kinslayers. Thus the Hunger can really drives the plot rather than having you burn someone up for a speeding offense.

                  Even the Hive can be the focus of a philosophy/society because the Begotten are like the Mages very apt to embrace astral engineering and experimenting with the Primordial Dream in a "what happens if to a territory if we change/colonize the Hive" way.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ganonso View Post

                    My only problem with your reasoning is the Hungers are not as they are presented in the text a plot starter similar to the Agendas or the Refinements at least in my experience with players. They are too large for that. The big reason is the text doesn't embrace Beast's crossover nature enough IMHO and so the Hunger is easy to sate while acting a petty asshole and never entering real conflict with anyone;

                    It is debatable if Beasts need societies like presented in the Player's Guide but I would argue the Hunger have to be detailled to fill their role. My solution has been to narrow them down and tie them to mythological motif. You Hoard Forbidden Knowledge. You Prey on Predators. You Punish Kinslayers. Thus the Hunger can really drives the plot rather than having you burn someone up for a speeding offense.

                    Even the Hive can be the focus of a philosophy/society because the Begotten are like the Mages very apt to embrace astral engineering and experimenting with the Primordial Dream in a "what happens if to a territory if we change/colonize the Hive" way.
                    But the big thing about hungers is that beasts decide how to focus that hunger. And if you narrow them down that much, you end up extremely limited and disadvantaged (Prey on predators would be WAY easier to fill than Punish Kinslayers)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ganonso View Post

                      My only problem with your reasoning is the Hungers are not as they are presented in the text a plot starter similar to the Agendas or the Refinements at least in my experience with players. They are too large for that. The big reason is the text doesn't embrace Beast's crossover nature enough IMHO and so the Hunger is easy to sate while acting a petty asshole and never entering real conflict with anyone;

                      It is debatable if Beasts need societies like presented in the Player's Guide but I would argue the Hunger have to be detailled to fill their role. My solution has been to narrow them down and tie them to mythological motif. You Hoard Forbidden Knowledge. You Prey on Predators. You Punish Kinslayers. Thus the Hunger can really drives the plot rather than having you burn someone up for a speeding offense.

                      Even the Hive can be the focus of a philosophy/society because the Begotten are like the Mages very apt to embrace astral engineering and experimenting with the Primordial Dream in a "what happens if to a territory if we change/colonize the Hive" way.
                      This is also an interesting angle of attack. I'll probably be able to come back to this thread properly on Saturday, so I'll address it then if I do, but this is a good question and I want to immediately credit that.


                      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                        But the big thing about hungers is that beasts decide how to focus that hunger. And if you narrow them down that much, you end up extremely limited and disadvantaged (Prey on predators would be WAY easier to fill than Punish Kinslayers)


                        This is very true. I have actually tried making Beasts focus on a particular element of their Hunger and originally believed they could only feed on their specific choice of prey, and it made them very narrow and difficult to play, with Beasts afraid to ever use their best abilities even in dangerous situations because Satiety was so hard to come by. They spent so much time setting up elaborate opportunities to feed that they didn't have time for anything else, and the characters became hyperfocused. Someone on this very forum informed me that Beasts didn't have to only feed in their one specifically-chosen way, but that their specific preferred way and method was what fed them best.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Eternal Darkness View Post



                          This is very true. I have actually tried making Beasts focus on a particular element of their Hunger and originally believed they could only feed on their specific choice of prey, and it made them very narrow and difficult to play, with Beasts afraid to ever use their best abilities even in dangerous situations because Satiety was so hard to come by. They spent so much time setting up elaborate opportunities to feed that they didn't have time for anything else, and the characters became hyperfocused. Someone on this very forum informed me that Beasts didn't have to only feed in their one specifically-chosen way, but that their specific preferred way and method was what fed them best.
                          That's very nice you tried though. Most people just assume a way they think is nice would work but never actually try it

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                            That's very nice you tried though. Most people just assume a way they think is nice would work but never actually try it

                            It works if and only if every Beast character in the chronicle can reasonably work together to feed off of the same targets in a nice, unbroken chain; but that's rare unless they specifically make characters with that in mind. My current game has eight very different Beasts in it, and i couldn't imagine them all trying to get feedings to work for everyone; it'd be a nightmare of convoluted plans that go beyond Machiavellian into sheer absurdity. Every feeding would make the victim feel like he was getting the biblical Job treatment, and that level of 'your life has been utterly demolished, and also you're dead' isn't always or even often called for.

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                            • #29
                              Double post
                              Last edited by Eternal Darkness; 05-16-2019, 03:18 AM. Reason: Double post

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