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  • #46
    Originally posted by johntfs View Post

    It's not exactly about justification so much as necessity.

    Here's Bob. Bob is Beast with a Hunger for Power. Bob is a Manager at a local grocery. He Feeds by bullying and lording it over employees (making them work through lunch, take unpaid overtime, bring the shopping carts in during a pouring rain despite the lack of rain gear). Bob is an asshole and by being an asshole he's pretty much able to remain at Sated or Gorged most of the time. He's got a small Lair (maybe three areas) and doesn't do anything really big enough to attract Heroes' attention. He's your basic asshole boss and as such doesn't really attract a bunch of attention because asshole bosses are more common than dirt in the NWoD. And he's actually a slight improvement over the previous human manager who tried to push the teenage girls into sex acts.

    So, game stuff aside, Bob is sitting pretty and there's really not much reason for him to push his Legend, grow his Lair or otherwise rock his particular Beastly boat in a normal Beast set-up.

    With Typhon, there is. Lilith Begot her Beastly children with the intent that they would drain Typhon's power and pull him off his throne as Kind-of-the-Mountain/Lord-of-the-Abyss. He knows that. Insatiable are His creations, sent forth to stoke fears and also go after Beasts. Heroes are Oracles that Typhon has twisted through the Primordial Dream. They actively hunt for Beasts using the Dark Gifts of Typhon (though they are unwitting pawns of his).

    Instead of being random, almost incidental dangers to Beasts, Heroes and the Insatiable are (again, mostly unwitting) agents of their ultimate enemy.

    So instead of enjoying his relatively safe niche as well-fed Horror/Asshole Boss, Bob needs to start building his Lair and Legend because he's being hunted. And if he's not ready, those hunters will sniff him out and snuff him out.

    Of course, even as a monster, you can still decide what kind of monster you'll be. Godzilla and Mothra are monsters, but the Japanese were super-glad they were around when King Ghidorah showed up and started breaking the furniture around Tokyo.

    Honestly, I'd kind of like Beasts to have a version of the Integrity trait to reflect that Beasts are human and Horror and that a balance should be maintained between them. Call it Bonding unless that's used elsewhere. The higher Bonding is the better control the Beast has over his Hunger and Atavisms. A Low Bonding leaves the Beast - especially his Horror, open to the blandishments of Typhon. Quite a few of the Insatiable used to be Beasts before they fell to Typhon.
    Realistically, Bob's business would go down, everyone would just quit. Now Bob has a problem, a problem caused by his own innate nature and lacking foresight into the consequences.

    You cant just disregard that the actions of a beast have consequences. And what Bob is doing will forever keep him on low satiety, which will make him erratic, and at best sated. And with his life, he is fucked if a Hero notices him.

    Again, Heroes are now losing their intrinsic link with Beasts. No longer are they tied to beasts and serve as a walking crisis of identity with their own issues. Now they are just pawns. That's a loss of depth.

    I simply dont see why this external threat need to be here. It actually changes a LOT more about beasts when looked into. As for integrity, beasts are monsters that represent fears. A big part of beast is that morality is a detached idea. Hell, the Horror does not give a shit about morality l, it IS a selfish monster that only cares to feed. Morality is for the beast to decide, and that influences their legend. Hiw they come with that, how humanity perceives their actions...they can only hope for the best.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by johntfs View Post

      It's not exactly about justification so much as necessity.
      The most terrible kinds of things have been done, justified as being "necessity".

      The worst thing that could happen to Beast: The Primordial is to present their Hungers as objectively justified. That's... I can't go along with that, or anything that even hints at that.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by johntfs View Post
        Typhon is the answer to "Why do a Beasts need to build their Legends?"
        1) You don't need Typhon when you have Insatiables though, but more importantly

        2) The answer to "Why do Beasts need to build their Lair/Legend?" is once again already answered, all that needs to happen is properly contextualize that answer-The Devouring.

        The Devouring is not a small event in anyone's personal life, it is a signficant actualization of persona and shadow by combining the person's Soul and the primordial Horror, coming home to their self. While,yes kids, actualization is not a singular matter, the important thing about this fulfillment is that it's significant enough that Beasts now have the final part of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs open to them as a thing to chase, and that's self-transcendence, taking this completed aspect of self and manifesting it in the world, making it a part of the world. The nature of Hunger and feelings of Kinship and the way those directly contribute to the Lair take that feeling that transcendence is the next step and manifests the reality of it as action.

        Beasts build Lair/Legend because that is how they are driven, because it's the next logical step for their journey, in becoming who they are.

        And keeping that in places helps to preserve and emphasize the internal horror of the characters and the moral stance of the game-Beasts are villain protagonists, Primordial is a morally dark grey game with murky ethics no easy answer for it's central conflict, and the characters always have some kind of shade of "terrible person" to them that also helps to make player decision towards aspirationally good and event contributive action and being that much more meaningful. It lets Beasts own themselves as monsters in a way that isn't done in a lot of other games and is one of the big aspects of why people like this game-their accountability as Beasts both damns and frees them, and the question of how to take self and contribute to community, or the question contributing to community is even desirable, is very compelling for the fanbase.

        You don't need an outside reason for Beasts to be Beasts. You just have make the transgression, the camaraderie, and the mythic approach of the game clearly understandable in a way that is also fun, and ideally also clear as a mean for reflection, contemplation, and discussion.

        So, no, I still see no need for Typhon. Besides, we already have a Typhon as an Aeon.


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #49
          Also, not to put too fine a point on it, Incarnate Beasts are already easily capable of equaling or surpassing top tier threats for some splats, and most things beyond that are more in the realm of abstract concepts rather than embodied entities that one can meaningfully interact with directly.

          Beyond that, you already have a world full of existential antagonists to choose from and it's far more interesting to look at the whole wide world of monsters and decide for yourself, yes, these ones I will help and these ones I will fight

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          • #50
            The Bob example also isn't really a Beast specific problem.

            All the gamelines have the potential to design a character that effectively sits around having a quiet life, maintaining their needs and keeping under the radar.

            Those aren't PCs though, because we play the games to have drama and conflict. We understand that our characters might want to be Bob, we as players and the ST know that our characters aren't going to be allowed to have that life because that doesn't make for a fun game.

            Vampire focuses on cities because playing the lone vampire that controls a small town of ~10K people, doesn't have competition from other vampires, isn't overlapping territory with other supernaturals, and isn't causing enough of a fuss for hunters or Strix to even care that they exist, isn't terribly interesting. That doesn't mean Vampire Bob here can't exist, and thus poses a problem for Vampire. It just means it's not the default mode of play.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post

              1) You don't need Typhon when you have Insatiables though, but more importantly...
              It's not really about need, though. How many antagonists are really needed by other games. In Werewolf, you could reasonably dump the Pure/Idigam/Bale Hounds and run it as a furrier "Game of Thrones" with the inheritors of Father Wolf struggling over his legacy and squabbling for territory. But those beings deepen the world, up the stakes and provide common enemies to help unite the various tribes and packs.

              Beasts are the Begotten. Not the Embraces, Created, Awakened, etc. On a metaphorical/Dream level, Lilith fucked someone and Beasts were the ultimate result.

              One of the themes in Beast is that of family. Beasts are "siblings" of a sort. Other supernaturals are "cousins" for the most part (Demons being the exception).

              Lilith is the Mother. You are the Monster that she, as a Mother, can love.

              Typhon is the Father and you, as a Beast, are his child as well. You are of him. Your Horror is shpaed by him. And if you want to progess, protect yourself, make a difference, you have to Feed the Hunger that are of him.

              While it seems like Cosmic Horror, Typhon has a personal effect on Beasts. Typhon is every abusive, cruel, asshole parent that every child who was victimized by swears they will never, ever be like. And yet many end up being very much like. Satiety 10 is awful because getting to it requires indulging that dark, vicious part of yourself, and when the Horror takes a nap the Human that's left confronts himself with that knowledge, much like what happens when the child of an alcoholic wakes up after bender, realizing she fucked up just like dear 'ol Dad used to do.


              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              So, no, I still see no need for Typhon. Besides, we already have a Typhon as an Aeon.
              I don't know what an Aeon is in this context.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by johntfs View Post
                I don't know what an Aeon is in this context.
                Extremely powerful beings from the Anima Mundi, possibly the roots of various Families.

                Typhon in particular is the Aeon of Death, and he's been having his children work to destroy the traditional route into the Dreamtime from the Temenos for some time now.


                Resident Lore-Hound
                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                • #53
                  There comes a point in the talking it becomes clear a person doesn't know what they talking about, and I am probably far later in approaching that boundary than I should be.

                  In the meantime.

                  1) The Dark Mother fucked a lot more than one entity to start the Families. The BPG pluralizes Progenitor-Beasts for a reason, and there is a dynamic reason both Doylistically and Watsonianly for this multiple spouse thing.

                  2) Your Typhon continues to serve purposes that are better served externally by The Insatiable the Deities of the Mother's Land and internally by the consequences of the Devouring and the natural result Astral metaphysics.

                  Again, Beast has everything it needs to be a great game. All it needs is correct contextualization and presentation.

                  Typhon doesn't contribute anything Beast doesn't already do better.


                  Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Feminine pronouns, please.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                    There comes a point in the talking it becomes clear a person doesn't know what they talking about, and I am probably far later in approaching that boundary than I should be.

                    In the meantime.

                    1) The Dark Mother fucked a lot more than one entity to start the Families. The BPG pluralizes Progenitor-Beasts for a reason, and there is a dynamic reason both Doylistically and Watsonianly for this multiple spouse thing.

                    2) Your Typhon continues to serve purposes that are better served externally by The Insatiable the Deities of the Mother's Land and internally by the consequences of the Devouring and the natural result Astral metaphysics.

                    Again, Beast has everything it needs to be a great game. All it needs is correct contextualization and presentation.

                    Typhon doesn't contribute anything Beast doesn't already do better.
                    And to add, The beast relationship to Typhon sounds like the Pure to Luna, but with extra steps

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                    • #55
                      Look if you want a big storyline for Beasts, no god monsters or the like beyond what's already there. The angle is simple. The world has moved on. Beasts had a role they used to fulfill, ages back there was a balance, the Beghotten were the fears and the monsters that humanity needed to understand the less friendly lessons there were. It doesn't matter how strong or fast you are the avalanche will crush you when you get caught in it, for example. And there was a balance, the Heroes, those who's job it was to go in and educate the common folk on how to avoid being caught in the avalanche and to deal with those Beasts that cross the line into just being dangers to humanity. Still the world has gone on, things have changed. A Beast's counterpoint now seems only to exist to slaughter them when the Beasts are found. The monster inside doesn't even consider the idea of a line and just wants to rampage regardless of whether it would teach anyone anything.

                      So, what do you do? Are the lessons your kind used to teach still needed? Do you just need a new method of teaching? Should you throw in with the other parts of the family and bring your talents to their enterprises? You exist, you have desires, and needs just like everyone else. (Even if those needs and desires involve making a bed in the collective unconscious out of a pile of wealth taken from those who crossed you.) So why do you exist, why do more of your kind keep getting made, and where do you fit into the world now?

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                      • #56
                        I know that I would dearly love new material on what the Astral Realms are like for Beasts and more exploration on them. The stuff in the Player's Guide really feels like the tip of the iceberg and I'd really love more material on inhabitants and what can happen there.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Paradim View Post
                          I know that I would dearly love new material on what the Astral Realms are like for Beasts and more exploration on them. The stuff in the Player's Guide really feels like the tip of the iceberg and I'd really love more material on inhabitants and what can happen there.
                          Agreed. I mean, I REALLY love the players guide. It gives an incredibly clear idea on the Begotten culture and what it's like to be one. But being the astral residents who can make modern legends in dreams of humanity, Beast: the primordial is the only game besides werewolf where I'm just as interested in the alternate world as I am with the monsters themselves (and by alternate world, I mean the Shadow and Astral/primordial dream)

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                            Agreed. I mean, I REALLY love the players guide. It gives an incredibly clear idea on the Begotten culture and what it's like to be one. But being the astral residents who can make modern legends in dreams of humanity, Beast: the primordial is the only game besides werewolf where I'm just as interested in the alternate world as I am with the monsters themselves (and by alternate world, I mean the Shadow and Astral/primordial dream)

                            Something I would kind of like is if there were some threats in the Astral Realms that could threaten a Beast's Lair or be other kinds of threats that Beasts have to deal with. I'd be concerned with making something too similar to the Spirits and Werewolves' Territory sort of dynamic but.... There's a lot of room that could be used here.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                              Look if you want a big storyline for Beasts, no god monsters or the like beyond what's already there. The angle is simple. The world has moved on. Beasts had a role they used to fulfill, ages back there was a balance, the Beghotten were the fears and the monsters that humanity needed to understand the less friendly lessons there were. It doesn't matter how strong or fast you are the avalanche will crush you when you get caught in it, for example. And there was a balance, the Heroes, those who's job it was to go in and educate the common folk on how to avoid being caught in the avalanche and to deal with those Beasts that cross the line into just being dangers to humanity. Still the world has gone on, things have changed. A Beast's counterpoint now seems only to exist to slaughter them when the Beasts are found. The monster inside doesn't even consider the idea of a line and just wants to rampage regardless of whether it would teach anyone anything.

                              So, what do you do? Are the lessons your kind used to teach still needed? Do you just need a new method of teaching? Should you throw in with the other parts of the family and bring your talents to their enterprises? You exist, you have desires, and needs just like everyone else. (Even if those needs and desires involve making a bed in the collective unconscious out of a pile of wealth taken from those who crossed you.) So why do you exist, why do more of your kind keep getting made, and where do you fit into the world now?
                              Eh, I would lean away from describing Beasts and Heroes as being relics of an older age that don't neccesarily belong in the modern world. The world is still a relevant force in our lives-we are very subject to nature-and everyone has their own ruling mythologies that grow and evolve and impart values and taboos to themselves and others. The forces that make up the Primordial are omnipresent, just with new forms draped over the old archetypes.

                              Originally posted by Paradim View Post
                              I know that I would dearly love new material on what the Astral Realms are like for Beasts and more exploration on them. The stuff in the Player's Guide really feels like the tip of the iceberg and I'd really love more material on inhabitants and what can happen there.
                              Oh yeah. More space on the Astral ecosystem is highly needed. The big question is if the big exploration should in the BSG or in a Mysterious/Weird Places style book. But you could almost (and probably should) have another Night Horrors book with a significant focus on the the Dreamborn.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

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