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  • Should Heroes have a supplement?

    let me start off with this. I am not talking about heroes being more sympathetic or the ever ironic "let's subvert the subversion" argument.

    now the title is a misnomer to be honest. I'm asking that, in a future supplement, preferably a storytellers guide, should Heroes be further developed? more than just on how to utilize them, but on what makes a Hero, the negative effects (and yes. positive effects) they can have on the environment, and the mystery of their place in the primordial dream. I guess what I'm asking is on the scale of expansion that Angels got in the demon storyteller guide.

  • #2
    There's no version of the BSG that happens without Heroes. That's just a fact.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
      There's no version of the BSG that happens without Heroes. That's just a fact.
      I understand that. I'm just asking if it should perhaps expand on them in a larger scale, on par with the expansion Angels got.

      and to be clear, I don't think there is "not enough" on heroes, I just wonder if perhaps developing then further would put them in a much better light to the masses

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

        I understand that. I'm just asking if it should perhaps expand on them in a larger scale, on par with the expansion Angels got.

        and to be clear, I don't think there is "not enough" on heroes, I just wonder if perhaps developing then further would put them in a much better light to the masses
        Considering that's the standard for games that have a genuinely singular antagonist that shines above the rest?

        I'd wager it's good bet on similar treatment, yeah.


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          Considering that's the standard for games that have a genuinely singular antagonist that shines above the rest?

          I'd wager it's good bet on similar treatment, yeah.
          dont you think the insatiable would be that antagonist though? that's why I think the Heroes would get considerably less

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

            dont you think the insatiable would be that antagonist though? that's why I think the Heroes would get considerably less
            Nope. The Insatiable are valuable as a second part of the argument, but there's a reason why Heroes have a central appearance across every book after Beasts while the Insatiable are a foot note in the BPG and otherwise only appearant in their introductory book.

            Heroes are to Beasts what Angels are to Demons.
            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 02-07-2020, 08:51 PM.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              Heroes are to Beasts what Angels are to Demons.
              Where they come from?


              Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

                Where they come from?
                Over-dominating brightness to rebellious darkness.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Feminine pronouns, please.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  Nope. The Insatiable are valuable as a second part of the argument, but there's a reason why Heroes have a central appearance across every book after Beasts while the Insatiable are a foot note in the BPG and otherwise only appearant in their introductory book.

                  Heroes are to Beasts what Angels are to Demons.
                  ahh, well you gotta point. this is a little embarrassing, is there a way I can close this thread?

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                  • #10
                    Short answer: No.

                    Longer Answer: They already have one, Night Horrors Conquering Heroes. And as the primary external antagonist, they'll show up in most future Beast books anyway.


                    Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                      Short answer: No.

                      Longer Answer: They already have one, Night Horrors Conquering Heroes. And as the primary external antagonist, they'll show up in most future Beast books anyway.
                      Conquering Heroes continued the train that existed. Heroes need to branch out in some critical ways.


                      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Feminine pronouns, please.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        Conquering Heroes continued the train that existed. Heroes need to branch out in some critical ways.
                        may I ask in what ways? ways I can think of is how they respond to other monsters, expansion on Heroes who meet up, and how Heroes have further changed due to the primordial dream (such as the serial killer in Conquering Heroes)

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                        • #13
                          Fair enough


                          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                            may I ask in what ways? ways I can think of is how they respond to other monsters, expansion on Heroes who meet up, and how Heroes have further changed due to the primordial dream (such as the serial killer in Conquering Heroes)
                            The four-and-a-half big ways I can think of are.....

                            1) We just really need to fucking nail down the reason Heroes suck as people. There's enough "But Heroes should be the good guys!" that I can honestly say it's not just a generic failure to understand.

                            2) Tactics. People need to understand how Heroes operate, and how a majority of that supports the former and the following.

                            3) The Careful Slice of powering up Heroes-you can't just make them more powerful due to thematic reasons, but It's worth just admitting that they need something in their tool belt.

                            4) Ways to really fuck with the narrative. If Beast is secretly a Scion-alike about Building Your Legend, Heroes need to have their way of twisting the narrative, playing the Fake News and demonization cards more meaningfully and powerfully.

                            Unmoored-.5) Crossover needs to re-emphasized in a way that Heroes can function outside of Beast and be a threat to other entities, and by way of that extension they need to be able to have reason to act in other gamelines while still ultimately tying into Beasts themselves.

                            I don't have much interest in how they've changed or what happens when they meet up, because I think it's more interesting to dig into the long term archetype that goes all the way to Gilgamesh as an asshole and "What if they meet up" reads a little like "What if it's not one idigam but TWO idigam together" which is not my particular game for understanding Heroes.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                              The four-and-a-half big ways I can think of are.....

                              1) We just really need to fucking nail down the reason Heroes suck as people. There's enough "But Heroes should be the good guys!" that I can honestly say it's not just a generic failure to understand.

                              2) Tactics. People need to understand how Heroes operate, and how a majority of that supports the former and the following.

                              3) The Careful Slice of powering up Heroes-you can't just make them more powerful due to thematic reasons, but It's worth just admitting that they need something in their tool belt.

                              4) Ways to really fuck with the narrative. If Beast is secretly a Scion-alike about Building Your Legend, Heroes need to have their way of twisting the narrative, playing the Fake News and demonization cards more meaningfully and powerfully.

                              Unmoored-.5) Crossover needs to re-emphasized in a way that Heroes can function outside of Beast and be a threat to other entities, and by way of that extension they need to be able to have reason to act in other gamelines while still ultimately tying into Beasts themselves.

                              I don't have much interest in how they've changed or what happens when they meet up, because I think it's more interesting to dig into the long term archetype that goes all the way to Gilgamesh as an asshole and "What if they meet up" reads a little like "What if it's not one idigam but TWO idigam together" which is not my particular game for understanding Heroes.
                              1. I agree at this point too. I think a possible, thematic way to do so would be too explore the nature of the monomyth, the Hero's place within it, and ripping away the gilded veil away for reality to show what it's REALLY like (and showing that, yes, a Hero will also kill genuinely evil Beasts, but that's no excuse for the ones trying to be good and the collateral damage along the way. that last part would just be to get rid of people saying "but what about when bad beasts get killed"

                              2. yeah, agreed

                              3. so I'm not the only one who thinks Anathema is not enough. I do wonder what else they could use. able to get attributes past 10? ignore some lair traits? make dream logic work with Heroes different from mortals/other supernaturals (kinda goes with the monomyth and ignoring lair traits, but whatever)

                              4. yeah, this would definitely help the monomyth theme a whole freaking lot (personally, I would also like to see how the Horror plays in the minds of the masses, and how Heroes "find" anathema on them)

                              5. that was probably what annoyed me the most about Heroes and other supernaturals. it's basically what you said. the Hero meets another monster, both don't like each other, OR they dont like each other, but team up to fight a Beast

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