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  • #16
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    The four-and-a-half big ways I can think of are.....

    1) We just really need to fucking nail down the reason Heroes suck as people. There's enough "But Heroes should be the good guys!" that I can honestly say it's not just a generic failure to understand.

    2) Tactics. People need to understand how Heroes operate, and how a majority of that supports the former and the following.

    3) The Careful Slice of powering up Heroes-you can't just make them more powerful due to thematic reasons, but It's worth just admitting that they need something in their tool belt.

    4) Ways to really fuck with the narrative. If Beast is secretly a Scion-alike about Building Your Legend, Heroes need to have their way of twisting the narrative, playing the Fake News and demonization cards more meaningfully and powerfully.

    Unmoored-.5) Crossover needs to re-emphasized in a way that Heroes can function outside of Beast and be a threat to other entities, and by way of that extension they need to be able to have reason to act in other gamelines while still ultimately tying into Beasts themselves.

    I don't have much interest in how they've changed or what happens when they meet up, because I think it's more interesting to dig into the long term archetype that goes all the way to Gilgamesh as an asshole and "What if they meet up" reads a little like "What if it's not one idigam but TWO idigam together" which is not my particular game for understanding Heroes.

    The Proximus Hero in Conquering Heroes is exactly what Heroes should be: they aren't that strong so they fight dirty, they slant, they destroy ties, they don't care if what they are saying about the Beast is right or not, it doesn't matter, reality bends itself so they are always right in the end.

    The Voice of the Victim hero embodies that too, even without a custom-tailored Gift, she embodies everything wrong with what Cancel Culture has became today, yes, there is a totally valid movement behind it, but it has lost it's way, it has became more about the thrill of tearing someone down than actually helping people, Candy Rasmussen doesn't care if her sources are right are or not, hell, if she has doubts herself about the validity of her story she will purposely avoid exposing flawed details just so people can't delve too deep on it.

    The most frustrating part about those two Heroes? even if the Beast is stronger than the Hero the Hero is protected by the system, sure, you can always simply go and kill them, raw and simple, but then you become the monster of the Heroes' story and the Hero becomes a Martyr, and consequences follow...

    Anathema should have been that, but the system is flawed, honestly I don't see how a Hero could ever place Anathema, ever. Beasts can simple expend Satiety for trivial reasons to ensure that they are never Sated, and if a Hero do find a Sated beast he still needs to actually hit an attack, so... not happening, ever.
    Last edited by DreadQueen; 04-13-2020, 03:06 AM.

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    • #17
      I agree. The Heroes of BTP need a supplement that focuses on them. Stuff for the supplement to look at:
      ● Heroes interactions with other supernatural creatures & hunters.
      ● A system for upgrading Heroes.
      ● Different kinds of Heroes, sometimes the Hero in myths & legends won because they were stronger, sometimes because they were smarter, sometimes because they were better at tactics & strategy, sometimes because they had right on their side, & etc.
      ● A deeper dive into Hero mentality, psychology, thought process.
      ● Introduce some examples of normal (both good & bad) Heroes & some examples of outliers.
      ● And what are their thoughts on Insatiables.

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      • #18
        Essentially, I see three good ways to upgrade heroes.
        - Super-Heroes: Basically the 'oh shit' moment. Super Heroes are basically what happens when the Hero stops twisting the narrative, and evolves to the narrator. They utterly control it. They can even use their powers against other splats.
        - Reversion to Oracle: Basically, a Hero admits their own weaknesses. Their own madness. Beasts aim to subvert the monomyth, but sometimes, just sometimes, Heroes take a good, long look at what's going on. And they too subvert the monomyth. After a spirit journey and learning to shunt out the worst of the influence, and revert back to Oracles.
        - Non-Violent Heroes: The book briefly mentions heroes that don't hunt Beasts, but doesn't go into detail. There's two ways to go.
        Plowshares: Essentially 'gifts' with a different function. These heroes don't hunt or even attack beasts. Instead, they fight the lesson. An anakim might find it harder to feed when the Hero is elected police chief, and steps up police presence. They subvert the lesson, and say 'you can avoid this, we've grown as a species'. Some know what they're doing, others merely believe that they're just doing the world a good turn. Plowshares do have combat applications, but there's a catch. The beast comes to them, not the other way around. David can take down Goliath, but remember that David did not go to Goliath's land and call him out. Goliath came to his home. The combat application of plowshares requires the Hero be on the defensive, or at least defending what is 'there's' be it their family, their police department. Something that would qualify as a touchstone for a more monstrous splat.

        Pedastals: Sometimes, what they do has nothing to do with the beast. These are heroes in the non-violent sense - larger than life figures that seem to bring life to whatever cause they dedicate themselves to. Pedestals are primarily social and organizational in nature - the ability to unite humanity. Some, however, are mental - the ability to further a philosophy, idea, or ideal by contributing to it. A good example of a non-violent hero would be a figure like MLK or Aristotle. They can get gifts, yes. But usually, the beast started the fight. Genuinely, beasts will leave these heroes well enough alone if they can. There's rarely good reason to poke a sleeping bear.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tzauri View Post
          Essentially, I see three good ways to upgrade heroes.
          - Reversion to Oracle: Basically, a Hero admits their own weaknesses. Their own madness. Beasts aim to subvert the monomyth, but sometimes, just sometimes, Heroes take a good, long look at what's going on. And they too subvert the monomyth. After a spirit journey and learning to shunt out the worst of the influence, and revert back to Oracles.
          - Non-Violent Heroes: The book briefly mentions heroes that don't hunt Beasts, but doesn't go into detail. There's two ways to go.
          Plowshares: Essentially 'gifts' with a different function. These heroes don't hunt or even attack beasts. Instead, they fight the lesson. An anakim might find it harder to feed when the Hero is elected police chief, and steps up police presence. They subvert the lesson, and say 'you can avoid this, we've grown as a species'. Some know what they're doing, others merely believe that they're just doing the world a good turn. Plowshares do have combat applications, but there's a catch. The beast comes to them, not the other way around. David can take down Goliath, but remember that David did not go to Goliath's land and call him out. Goliath came to his home. The combat application of plowshares requires the Hero be on the defensive, or at least defending what is 'there's' be it their family, their police department. Something that would qualify as a touchstone for a more monstrous splat.

          Pedastals: Sometimes, what they do has nothing to do with the beast. These are heroes in the non-violent sense - larger than life figures that seem to bring life to whatever cause they dedicate themselves to. Pedestals are primarily social and organizational in nature - the ability to unite humanity. Some, however, are mental - the ability to further a philosophy, idea, or ideal by contributing to it. A good example of a non-violent hero would be a figure like MLK or Aristotle. They can get gifts, yes. But usually, the beast started the fight. Genuinely, beasts will leave these heroes well enough alone if they can. There's rarely good reason to poke a sleeping bear.
          This two, i am in awe. Beautifull!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DreadQueen View Post


            The Proximus Hero in Conquering Heroes is exactly what Heroes should be: they aren't that strong so they fight dirty, they slant, they destroy ties, they don't care if what they are saying about the Beast is right or not, it doesn't matter, reality bends itself so they are always right in the end.

            The Voice of the Victim hero embodies that too, even without a custom-tailored Gift, she embodies everything wrong with what Cancel Culture has became today, yes, there is a totally valid movement behind it, but it has lost it's way, it has became more about the thrill of tearing someone down than actually helping people, Candy Rasmussen doesn't care if her sources are right are or not, hell, if she has doubts herself about the validity of her story she will purposely avoid exposing flawed details just so people can't delve too deep on it.

            The most frustrating part about those two Heroes? even if the Beast is stronger than the Hero the Hero is protected by the system, sure, you can always simply go and kill them, raw and simple, but then you become the monster of the Heroes' story and the Hero becomes a Martyr, and consequences follow...

            Anathema should have been that, but the system is flawed, honestly I don't see how a Hero could ever place Anathema, ever. Beasts can simple expend Satiety for trivial reasons to ensure that they are never Sated, and if a Hero do find a Sated beast he still needs to actually hit an attack, so... not happening, ever.
            Anathema comes simply from a Hero seeing a beast and then in his head seeing a narrative from it. If it the horror has a glowing belly, that MUST be the weak spot. It isnt really, but the Hero thinks so, so it is. The thing about Heroes is that a Beast does not just know when a Hero is watching them. A savvy one is very good at catching one off guard. Only the young and stupid ones go guns blazing at a moments notice. Anathema is a BIG part of why Beasts hate heroes and to the themes of the game. It fulfills its role perfectly and needs no changes

            I disagree Heroes should be stuck to only social threats. They may as well be people of high standing then. Any one hero should have their own ways to fight. That needs to be worked on, yes, but we should not limit them. Their flexibility is their best advantage besides Anathema

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

              Anathema comes simply from a Hero seeing a beast and then in his head seeing a narrative from it. If it the horror has a glowing belly, that MUST be the weak spot. It isnt really, but the Hero thinks so, so it is. The thing about Heroes is that a Beast does not just know when a Hero is watching them. A savvy one is very good at catching one off guard. Only the young and stupid ones go guns blazing at a moments notice. Anathema is a BIG part of why Beasts hate heroes and to the themes of the game. It fulfills its role perfectly and needs no changes

              I disagree Heroes should be stuck to only social threats. They may as well be people of high standing then. Any one hero should have their own ways to fight. That needs to be worked on, yes, but we should not limit them. Their flexibility is their best advantage besides Anathema

              In actual play though the players spend exactly 0.5 seconds in Sated condition before they spend their way down to Starving, there's no mechanic to prevent that, in fact the game encourages that by gaining an extra Beat for doing it.

              The only realistic way for a Beast to spend time in Sated condition enough for a Hero to inflict Anathema on them is if they spend too much time at 3 Satiety and the Horror inflicts a successful nightmare on someone while the Beast is sleeping, but even that can be easily prevented by regularly doing a minor feeding then spending one Satiety point.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DreadQueen View Post


                In actual play though the players spend exactly 0.5 seconds in Sated condition before they spend their way down to Starving, there's no mechanic to prevent that, in fact the game encourages that by gaining an extra Beat for doing it.

                The only realistic way for a Beast to spend time in Sated condition enough for a Hero to inflict Anathema on them is if they spend too much time at 3 Satiety and the Horror inflicts a successful nightmare on someone while the Beast is sleeping, but even that can be easily prevented by regularly doing a minor feeding then spending one Satiety point.
                If a beast if just soending satiety like that and facing no consequences, there is a problem. You should be able to flip between the states of satiety, but the things beast do should have consequences. And again, a Hero can be anywhere at anytime and you will always reach sated again at some point. A hero does not need an eternity to inflict anathema. All it takes is a hit and run.

                Heroes need a buff, I agree. But you're just limiting their options and in a way that would make legends pointless. Beasts already accept Heroes like Heracles existed, heroes that can single handedly defeat them. For that to disappear wouldnt make sense, especially with the astral having planting of narratives with one hero going

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                  If a beast if just soending satiety like that and facing no consequences, there is a problem. You should be able to flip between the states of satiety, but the things beast do should have consequences. And again, a Hero can be anywhere at anytime and you will always reach sated again at some point. A hero does not need an eternity to inflict anathema. All it takes is a hit and run.

                  Heroes need a buff, I agree. But you're just limiting their options and in a way that would make legends pointless. Beasts already accept Heroes like Heracles existed, heroes that can single handedly defeat them. For that to disappear wouldnt make sense, especially with the astral having planting of narratives with one hero going
                  Consequences for using Satiety for nothing? why there would be?

                  Hunger management is just too easy, probably by design so it does not become frustrating.

                  One thing I do is make it so Beasts digest when they are sleeping, but then the book goes and provides the players the option to spend Willpower to digest instantly anyway. At least it keeps the ball rolling, making it so players are constantly acting their Legend to keep the Willpower coming.

                  At the end of the day Beast is more than a game about back-to-back feeding scenes, and that is great actually. The problem is that Heroes are too limited to this part of the game, I just think they should be able to have more impact outside of being merely an expansion of a very specific mechanic.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DreadQueen View Post

                    Consequences for using Satiety for nothing? why there would be?

                    Hunger management is just too easy, probably by design so it does not become frustrating.

                    One thing I do is make it so Beasts digest when they are sleeping, but then the book goes and provides the players the option to spend Willpower to digest instantly anyway. At least it keeps the ball rolling, making it so players are constantly acting their Legend to keep the Willpower coming.

                    At the end of the day Beast is more than a game about back-to-back feeding scenes, and that is great actually. The problem is that Heroes are too limited to this part of the game, I just think they should be able to have more impact outside of being merely an expansion of a very specific mechanic.
                    My bad, I forgot about the willpower thing. At my table, we've banned that for simply being too easy. Even then though, a beast will find himself running out of willpower and constantly having to fulfill his Legend (which often means throwing out reason) or Life (which can often be putting yourself in danger for a good cause). A hero just needs one good hit too, and with Heroic Stalking, he can likely get you after a good while

                    Heroes are there for the Beast to question their place in the world/story. They DO need a buff, but I making them a threat that simply has high standing with people is the wrong way to do it. Not just because it limits them, but because they can ALREADY do that. Different Heroes should get different methods. If I want to face a foe with high social abilities, I might as well fight vampires or mages.

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                    • #25
                      They can't do that, they can't do the whole Rambo-style hunting too, that's kind of the problem ins't it? there's an huge disparity between what Heroes are described in the fluff and what they end up actually being in the game mechanically. Right is on their side but the rules certainly ain't.

                      Take the swimmer in Conquering Heroes by instance, he's supposed to be this Hero that every aquatic Beasts fears, in the fluff he has killed many Beasts already, he's the direct type, he doesn't bother with dirty tactics and stuff, he simply opts for direct confrontation. Then you look at his stats and you can't help but laugh, because he's literally unplayable in a real game.he's just so weak that you wonder how the hell has he managed to kill a single Beast, let alone many like his fluff suggest.
                      Last edited by DreadQueen; 04-13-2020, 03:39 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DreadQueen View Post
                        They can't do that, they can't do the whole Rambo-style hunting too, that's kind of the problem ins't it? there's an huge disparity between what Heroes are described in the fluff and what they end up actually being in the game mechanically. Right is on their side but the rules certainly ain't.

                        Take the swimmer in Conquering Heroes by instance, he's supposed to be this Hero that every aquatic Beasts fears, in the fluff he has killed many Beasts already, he's the direct type, he doesn't bother with dirty tactics and stuff, he simply opts for direct confrontation. Then you look at his stats and you can't help but laugh, because he's literally unplayable in a real game.he's just so weak that you wonder how the hell has he managed to kill a single Beast, let alone many like his fluff suggest.
                        Like I said, I agree they need a buff. What you want sounds like nerfing them into a niche that's already taken up

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                        • #27
                          Beasts without Unbreakable or Relentless Hunter are as susceptible to being shot in the head as mortals are, so it's certainly not impossible for a Hero with a big gun and the skill to use it to kill several.

                          That said, Unbreakable isn't hard to learn and it does dramatically reduce the threat guns pose.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DreadQueen View Post
                            Take the swimmer in Conquering Heroes by instance... you wonder how the hell has he managed to kill a single Beast, let alone many like his fluff suggest.
                            Probably with his nine dice to shoot them.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

                              Probably with his nine dice to shoot them.
                              I should have specified I was talking about open combat.

                              How useful is that against Makaras in the middle of the ocean?

                              You know it's far-fetched, that's why the only description of him killing a Beast didn't involve no grandiose battle, it involved him stalking a Beast to an empty parking lot and cowardly taking her by surprise with a shot to the back, and his other kills are probably always just as coward, he only manages to kill those that didn't want to fight.

                              I'm against buffing Heroes in combat, yes, there are Heracles-like Heroes out there, but those aren't the Heroes that usually appear in a Beast game. The heroes that do in appear in a Beast game won't go toe-to-toe against a Beast, they will employ every dirty tactic up their sleeve to slay them, they won't fight it when they know they will fight back, they will wait while they are distracted, doing something completely harmless to society, like chilling with their friends on the beach.

                              And that's what people for some reason don't get, the Heroes in Beast aren't really punishing the scary evil Beasts that go out on a rampant killing hundreds, they are much more likely to prey on the weaker ones, that didn't buy any combat-focused Atavism, the ones who can't fight back, that's the whole thing about Heroes, can you really say they are doing good when they punish the Beasts that are sincerely trying be good the hardest?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DreadQueen View Post

                                I should have specified I was talking about open combat.

                                How useful is that against Makaras in the middle of the ocean?

                                You know it's far-fetched, that's why the only description of him killing a Beast didn't involve no grandiose battle, it involved him stalking a Beast to an empty parking lot and cowardly taking her by surprise with a shot to the back, and his other kills are probably always just as coward, he only manages to kill those that didn't want to fight.

                                I'm against buffing Heroes in combat, yes, there are Heracles-like Heroes out there, but those aren't the Heroes that usually appear in a Beast game. The heroes that do in appear in a Beast game won't go toe-to-toe against a Beast, they will employ every dirty tactic up their sleeve to slay them, they won't fight it when they know they will fight back, they will wait while they are distracted, doing something completely harmless to society, like chilling with their friends on the beach.

                                And that's what people for some reason don't get, the Heroes in Beast aren't really punishing the scary evil Beasts that go out on a rampant killing hundreds, they are much more likely to prey on the weaker ones, that didn't buy any combat-focused Atavism, the ones who can't fight back, that's the whole thing about Heroes, can you really say they are doing good when they punish the Beasts that are sincerely trying be good the hardest?
                                Many heroes Heroes dont give a shit beasts are trying to use their nature in a constructive way. They see a monster, it HAS to die. And a Hero is just likely to fight a terror of a beast as he is a weak one

                                Heroes should be buffed in terms of being good at combat so ones like the water guy can be believable. I dont know why you want them nerfed. You seem to want Hunters, not Heroes

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