Any chance of a Beast rewrite/reboot?

[FallenEco]

You know, I do like the idea of just once, having an actual example of what the Horror being forced to feed via nightmares from a single target without Heroic intervention looks like. To have the Begotten who refuses to 'be an arsehole' (dispute the degree of 'damage' being lower due to low Satiety) watch on as their unintentional victim breaks, slowly driven insane as Willpower and Integrity plummet under the Ravenous Horror's desperate attempt to survive.

A nice little reminder that feeding is the lesser of two evils.

But some people keep missing the part that the threshold 'for evil' for feeding lowers the hungrier you are. Not by Lair/Blood Potency/Primal Urge. By how long you've gone without feeding.

If you need to nail a beloved pet to an old lady's door to feed, you probably don't need to worry about feeding. When it does get that low, wrecking her garden may be enough, if your Hunger is Ruin. Though you could just trash an arsehole's car for being a dick as easily, might even be worth more than the cat, if he loves that car.

Beast has lot transgressional themes like 'damage control', 'fine lines' and 'was it worth it?' that aren't necessarily called out. But they do help contextualize the WHY of Beasts.

A reminder though; within the gameworld, the supernatural is real - the only difference in the 'man on fire' example Paradim mentioned is that one suspends the player's disbelief. To the characters, they are equally real and the spell is arguebly more terrifying as it comes out of nowhere, with less chance of one getting away from the flames. If your group treats them differently that is fine, but don't assume that just because it is magic it would somehow be less evil, horrific or morally black.

[ArcaneArts]

Yeah, I chose Chronicles of Darkness for that particular venture? Isn't that why you chose it? After you boil out all the fat the why of this is still "have fun by escaping reality."

Uh. No. Fun is a cheap commodity I can get anywhere. Fun is a commodity I can self-produce, even. I don't go out of my way to invest time into a thread about a commodity alone for fun, nevermind the effort it takes to become a major public figure in the community of a particular commodity and even a contributor to that commodity simply because it's fun.

I mean, yeah, fun's part of it, but I come for a lot more than that.

And my incredulity is that Chronicles is the wrong franchise to "escape reality". When your tagline is "Our World, but with Monsters", already you have a bad premise for "escaping reality", and that's before realizing that a dive of five pages into pretty much any singular book that Chronicles does not leave the concerns of reality at the door-rather the opposite, they are interested in letting you have fun by confronting you with that reality you somehow think you can escape from because it doesn't disrespect your intelligence or capacity to get more things than just fun from from any particular experience.

Which would be a step in the reason why I bother involving myself with it in any capacity beyond merely reading the books.

As for why, I really wanted to like it and I don't. I wanted to like it so much that I dropped $65.00 on the Kickstarter for it. There's parts I like. Atavisms. The Dark Mother myth. The idea of Beasts as maker of myth. The Lair. Heroes as the assholes coming to kill you for being you. But sitting at the core of it are the Hungers and the real-world asshole things you have to do to feed those Hungers. It's like somebody took a shit in my chocolate ice cream.

I mean, I'm glad you recognize that Hungers are the dark element in the dark-grey set up of Beast.

But, like.

The drug-, rape-, and institutional- abuses of Requiem didn't get to you?
The gang violence, use of violence for mounnity-scale or larger manipulation of society, and laissez faire attitude about murder of Forsaken didn't get to you?
The consumption of the common individual-on-mass for the elites of society and the naked freedom they feel for using such however they want of Awakening didn't get to you?
The emotionally driven violence of fractured individuals, open commentary on the neglected and forsaken members of society, and toxic self-identification of Created didn't get to you?
The emotional and psychological manipulation of individuals, open abuse allegories, and drug abuses of Lost didn't get to you?
The exploration of violence against others within the various groups, organizations, movements and classes of people in Vigil didn't get to you?
The social silencing of groups, cruel employment of law, and torments rendered by obssessive individuals of Sin-Eaters didn't get to you?
The correlation of brutal pre-agricultural values that grossly violate concepts of human rights and decency to actual systems in place now from Curse didn't get to you?
The terrorism, open cruelties of institutional and rebel espionage organizations, and vicious manipulation of public perception to select individuals ends as expressed in Descent didn't get to you?
The exploitation of individuals for economic and selfish gains, the violence that emerges from a failure to take care of our mentally and physically impaired compatriots, and exploration of how individuals and organizations turn a blind eye towards all of that from Renegades didn't get to you?

And playing an opposite tact, the dedication to community building and familial care, the careful examination of both personal and societal values with an eye towards careful pruning and growth, and the self-reflections personal nature and flaws and how to own them in a way that is beneficial not just to self but to the world around you-all of that from Primodial didn't get to you?

Because here's my problem every time this comes up. A lot of people who make this argument swear up and down they've read the book, and complain that someone took a shit in their chocolate ice cream.

And to me, it really looks like y'all ordered a coffee with a little bit of cream and sugar, and are upset when you discover it's not hot chocolate, and I really have trouble believing you read the menu.

When your goal is to escape reality, it's not surprising that you miss the realities you run into. And unfortunately, No one can really help you with that.

[ArcaneArts]

Sorry about that, the Escaping Reality and Shit in Chocolate Ice Cream lines lodged in my head, ANYWAYS.

There's parts I like. Atavisms. The Dark Mother myth. The idea of Beasts as maker of myth. The Lair. Heroes as the assholes coming to kill you for being you.

Sooooo

Okay, again, my general problem here is that there are other games that do a lot of this. About the only one that is a sticking point is the collation of The Lair with everything else, because a lot of High Fantasy/Mythic Fantasy/Urban Fantasy/Urban Mythic/Mythic Horror/Fantasy Horror games either do mechanics in facilitation to That or to Everything else, but, like.

A casual genre search on DTRPG will give you a wide variety of games that satisfactorily hit those thematic beats, mechanical execution, and even particular archetypes and structures.

I can be sympathetic to being really invested in the language and the particulars of Primordial, and really sympathetic to to anyone who does want to incorporate the things that make up Lair into everything else. And answering for Not Liking Hunger when you want to enjoy those elements is hard to account for.

But there are two elements I have a problem with in that sympathy.

1) Even with a distaste for it, it's not hard to see how Hunger plays a pivotal role in anchoring Beast to the themes and ideas of the rest of the Chronicles world, and the dive into optimistic humanism through the dark lens of monstrosity as a means of providing empathy and reconsideration that it generally aims for (Chronicles is generally surprisingly optimistic, but it doesn't just play at being Peppy-it goes the hard route to find realistic ways and views to be optimistic with), and so while a accounting for perhaps a more tasteful ground to bind Beast into the rest of the franchise while also being true to the themes and atmosphere of itself is a argument to be had, a blatant excision of that binding element without giving due to it's function is by and large fruitless.

2) Again, I kind of can't feel like there's no attempt to comprehend how an opposite angle that is in favor of Hunger in at least a general way is important or plays to the environment. Like, as a comparison, I used to hate Requiem 1st Edition because I really hated how depressing it was. (And mind you, I came in with Promethean and Changeling, so consider that). I never really failed to have meaningful conversation for other people on that because I did take the time to hear people out, reread the book with their commentary in mind, learn to adjust when I found my arguments over-inflated the actuality of the text, and really thought about how to make my point without coming accross as though it was invalid.

And honestly, at the root of all that was that my dislike of the game was easily expressed by understanding that anything I liked I could crib for something else (and did for a good number of one shot games), and that honestly the element I felt worked out of it's favor was, in fact, at least working for the game on the whole as it was.

Now, a lot of people complain about the way Hungers are sated in Beast, and I don't think it's unfair to have that in consideration to whether or not that's important to improving what Beast is.

But the thing of the matter is a lot of people making the argument can't actually articulate a functional problem with it beyond simply not working to their taste-coffee instead of chocolate.

And for me-I mean, I have spent a lot of my own time monkeying around with the space that Hungers occupy and the function, and things that might work outside of it. I don't want to just toss the argument out the window because other people don't have the words for it beyond their own selves. And the thing of the matter is that I just sort of think after years of wrestling with the subject is that Beast can be a better game, but it is always going be sort of niche. It has a need to be brutal and simple in order to fulfill a lot of it's goals, particularly as a crossover game, a game that sits on the dark-grey line of Chronicles' general Grey Vs Black Morality conflict and generally aims to improve our understanding of empathy for- and judgement of- people by using it's conflict of Hunger vs Kinship to humanize and demonize a lot of characters in a way a more conventional take wouldn't do, that make Hunger and the way it plays out not only functional but a vital lens for both the sort of visceral fun and complicated contemplation that it aims to create. Hungers playing out the way they do not only creates the sharpness of edge for it's kind of fun, but also brings that sharpness to the questions it asks and suggestions it guides with.

No one has successfully convinced me that Hungers are not effective for the sort of game that Beast sets out to, only that the way they are presented needs to be refined to allow that function to more solidly hit and be understood within it's own context. I think Hungers are handled sloppily in presentation (in particular, it's not as neatly wrapped up in the complicated messy way it should be with Kinship, because they are the opposing forces of the game but also intimately wrapped up in each other), but not in it's core conceptual activity.

And I'll be honest! Maybe I just haven't heard the right sort of argument yet! Maybe something else can absolutely fill that hole and successfully do what Beast needs to do in order to be itself.

But No One arguing against it has convinced me they know how to make this a better coffee. I just keep hearing that it's not hot chocolate.

TL;DR-Does no one use Chesterton's Fence anymore?

EDIT: Honestly now, I'm going to start responding to a lot of hate think pieces with Chesterton's Fence now that I've thought about it. I mean, I basically have been anyways. Learn it, use it, learn from it, love it.

[johntfs]

So... It's not murder if a wizard does it?

Okay... So... It's the means you find objectionable? Like, you need all the bad stuff to be of an obviously supernatural origin in order to feel comfortable engaging in it?

Okay.... Okay, if I'm understanding your position right (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! I won't take offense to it), then there is actually a very easy fix for you, I suppose. Require any Feeding by a Beast to be done utilizing Atavisms or Nightmares.

Like... There's a Nightmare that a Beast can use to kill someone, and that person turns to stone, like Medusa's Gaze. Clearly supernatural in origin, even has a fun name for it "Behold, My True Form!" exclamation mark included even. For Atavisms there are lots of violent options... Dragonfire for setting someone on fire in a way that is totally not doable in the real world... Basilisk's Touch as a way to make someone Drugged or Poisoned in a way that can't be done in the real world.... You can wreck a lot of structures and property to Feed Ruin using Heart of the Ocean or Storm Lashed! All done from a Supernatural Origin and completely not doable in the real world by a normal person.

Does that change in approach help?

It actually does. Doing that and combining it with the "vicarious Feeding" bit involving other supers works better for me. As things stand a "medium" Feeding for a Tyrant could be: Force one of your employees to have sex with you. I'm fine playing a monster, but I'd rather not play Harvey Weinstein if that makes any sense.

[tasti man LH]

It actually does. Doing that and combining it with the "vicarious Feeding" bit involving other supers works better for me. As things stand a "medium" Feeding for a Tyrant could be: Force one of your employees to have sex with you. I'm fine playing a monster, but I'd rather not play Harvey Weinstein if that makes any sense.

...ok, this is a troll post clearly.

Thanks for wasting everyone's time and for playing up the stereotype of Beast critics being as bad as the game they claim to make "reasonable" criticisms of.

[nalak42]

So a thing with the Beghotten is that it is so easy to be the bad guy, not like none of the other splats can be villains with barely any effort just Beasts have it as an easy option. But, that's the thing part of the game when you play a Beast is dealing with how easy it is to just slide right into that role of monster and what are you going to do about that? So where does your character draw the line when your other half's biggest complaints about what you do to feed it are that it isn't frequent enough and that its too little? You're a Ravager, part of you looks at a place and contemplates what would upend it; you're a Predator, look at all the people and figure out who's allowed the reptile portion of their brain to doze off; a whisperer, what secrets are these people hiding and who needs confronting with someone else knowing it.

The Horror doesn't care, but that's what the human part is there for. Look at the world and figure out what lines are you are willing to cross, in what situations do you feel something can or even should be done? Hell Beast has an angle I don't see that often in the reasons for a group to exist. You can easily answer the response to why they're in the group with, "Because I've seen what my other half wants and I can't do that." One of the first concepts I had was predator who found the whole felt uncomfortable following their Horror's desires and the fact that they could do it, they could do it well, and that they'd might even enjoy it, so they partnered with another Beast with preferable feeding habits.

By the same token so long as its in the right vein the Horror also doesn't care what you do. The Tyrant wants it to be known that others are not as great as itself. You can use your strength to beat them until they beg you to stop, you can also be that dude no one can beat in a 1 v1 basketball game to the point where everyone has just accepted that you need at least two on one against the Tyrant to even make it a good game. A Ravager can set up a bomb in a building to destroy security. My group decided to the same function could be achieved in a more entertaining way and thus was born the plan to break into a mob boss' home shave half his head, dye the other half, put cocktail shrimp in the air vents, bullion cubes in the shower head, and run his underwear up the flagpole that he didn't have in front of his house when he went to bed that night.

[Satchel]

As things stand a "medium" Feeding for a Tyrant could be: Force one of your employees to have sex with you. I'm fine playing a monster, but I'd rather not play Harvey Weinstein if that makes any sense.

Fortunately, "as things stand," you don't have to play Harvey Weinstein as a Tyrant any more than you have to play Harvey Weinstein as a Ventrue or a Daeva in Vampire just because getting Vitae "could be" accomplished by that same method with a side of far more Uncomfortable after-effects.

Dial it the fuck down.

[ArcaneArts]

...ok, this is a troll post clearly.

Thanks for wasting everyone's time and for playing up the stereotype of Beast critics being as bad as the game they claim to make "reasonable" criticisms of.

Borrowing another food metaphor:

Bit like watching someone order a medium rare and then complaining it's raw, right?

It actually does. Doing that and combining it with the "vicarious Feeding" bit involving other supers works better for me. As things stand a "medium" Feeding for a Tyrant could be: Force one of your employees to have sex with you. I'm fine playing a monster, but I'd rather not play Harvey Weinstein if that makes any sense.

I feel like Plato made a point about people doing this sort of thing.

[Paradim]

It actually does. Doing that and combining it with the "vicarious Feeding" bit involving other supers works better for me. As things stand a "medium" Feeding for a Tyrant could be: Force one of your employees to have sex with you. I'm fine playing a monster, but I'd rather not play Harvey Weinstein if that makes any sense.

....No. No, that honestly does not make any sense to me. It doesn't make any sense to me on several levels. Like... What the fuck?

But... I don't need you to explain it to me and I think I'm better off not knowing.

I'm okay leaving it at that, I guess.

[johntfs]

....No. No, that honestly does not make any sense to me. It doesn't make any sense to me on several levels. Like... What the fuck?

But... I don't need you to explain it to me and I think I'm better off not knowing.

I'm okay leaving it at that, I guess.

It's not that hard to comprehend. Being a pretend supernatural monster is cool. Being an actual asshole human monster isn't.

[tasti man LH]

It's not that hard to comprehend. Being a pretend supernatural monster is cool. Being an actual asshole human monster isn't.

Wrong gameline.

Slashers are over in Hunter.

[Satchel]

It's not that hard to comprehend. Being a pretend supernatural monster is cool. Being an actual asshole human monster isn't.

So then the solution is to not do that thing, which the game gives you ample ability to manage.

[Heavy Arms]

It's not that hard to comprehend. Being a pretend supernatural monster is cool. Being an actual asshole human monster isn't.

OK, serious question:

Do you really think that Beasts don't use their array of powers to feed?

It's something that's bugged me, but others have been addressing this thread more eloquently than I tend to.

But you keep asserting things that only make sense if you think Beasts have any reasons not to use their powers to feed. Beasts are supernatural monsters, no matter how human the end result of their actions. How do you think they figure out what to do to feed? Do you think they just ignore powers that would make things easier on them?

[nalak42]

Fun fact, feeding is more efficient if you used your powers, its a +1 to feed if you spent satiety. so using the power that lets you create giant stone hands to pick up all the cars parked on the side of the street and leave them upside down in nearby trees is better for your feeding than chucking a molotov into anyone's car. Added bonus, half a dozen or more cars upside down on roofs or in trees over the course of a night is gonna go viral, so there is actually potential for more opportunities to feed off the act. (And mayhaps the incident peaks the interest of some potential kin.)

[Paradim]

It's not that hard to comprehend. Being a pretend supernatural monster is cool. Being an actual asshole human monster isn't.

Here's the thing.... You think there's a difference. But there isn't, not really.

Now... Because Beast: The Primordial can get into some heavy topics, I'm going to toss a couple useful links....

A Primer on Safety in Roleplaying Games.

Safety Tools

These are just a start, but there are ideas that can be very useful in helping keep things safe and sane at the table. I particularly like making use of the "Rewind", "Pause" and "Fast Forward" concepts. Sometimes a scene needs to be taken back and go a different direction. Sometimes a scene just needs a "Fade To Black" to happen. I haven't regretted encouraging players to have more narrative control over a scene. It helps them be comfortable, it helps things stay safe. I invite players to accept "Bad Things" happening to their characters, but on terms they're consenting to (Like uh... "And the monster shows up and does something horrible! Who wants a Beat to tell us what horrible thing the monster does and how your character reacts negatively to it?")

It helps.